Reading Mishnayos without understanding












8















Is it considered Talmud Torah if one just reads mishnayos without understanding what he's saying?










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    8















    Is it considered Talmud Torah if one just reads mishnayos without understanding what he's saying?










    share|improve this question



























      8












      8








      8








      Is it considered Talmud Torah if one just reads mishnayos without understanding what he's saying?










      share|improve this question
















      Is it considered Talmud Torah if one just reads mishnayos without understanding what he's saying?







      torah-study mishna






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      edited Feb 25 at 7:32









      mbloch

      25.6k545131




      25.6k545131










      asked Feb 25 at 7:03









      MosheMoshe

      23710




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          5 Answers
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          7














          It appears from the words of the Shulchan Aruch HaRav that one does not although the Chida suggests one does fulfill the mitzva if one exerted himself to comprehend the words even if he did not succeed in understand the meaning.



          Shulchan Aruch HaRav (Laws of Torah Study 2:12-13) writes that




          Whereas one who studies the Oral Torah without understanding the
          words has fulfilled no mitzva
          , one who studies the Written Torah
          without understanding still fulfills the obligation of talmud Torah.




          R Yosef Dov Soloveitchek had also commented on this (see here)




          for that reason, the Brisker Rav suggested there is no concept of
          Oisiyos Machkimos (reading the text makes one wiser) regarding Torah
          SheBaal Peh.




          R Tzvi Sinensky writes




          We might explain the logic for this view as follows: the primary value
          of the Oral Torah is to understand the halakhot [...] Thus, one who does not understand the words
          fails to fulfill one’s obligation.
          However, study of the written Torah
          is qualitatively different; the very encounter is significant [...]




          However the Chida (Maris HaAyin, Avodah Zara 19) qualifies the ruling of the Shulchan Aruch HaRav




          This [...] only applies if one did not make a sincere effort to
          understand what he is saying. However, if one exerted himself to
          comprehend the words, he fulfills his mitzvah of learning Torah, even
          if he did not succeed in understand the meaning.







          share|improve this answer


























          • I wonder if tikun l'el shavuos is treated as mikra or as Torah sh'baal peh. It has Torah sh'baal peh but is in the form of being mikra

            – Dude
            Feb 25 at 16:10













          • Note there are different levels of understanding. To take an example that can apply to a lot of Zeraim: (a) there is a plant called x in Hebrew that certain halachos apply to (b) there is a plant called x in Hebrew and y in English that certain halachos apply to (c) there is a plant that has certain properties and therefore certain halachos apply to it (d) there is a plant that I had for dinner last night, I can tell that it has certain properties, and that's why certain halachos apply to it. In terms of understanding, I'd say (d) > (c) > (a) = (b)

            – Heshy
            Feb 25 at 19:56











          • See also the Maharal's introduction to Tiferes Yisrael

            – wfb
            Feb 25 at 20:16











          • regarding the comment of the Brisker Rav, Oisiyos Machkimos would not apply since Mishnayos are an Oral law,and not meant to be read, but to be recited. It should not depend on the question of reading Mishnayos without understanding.

            – simyou
            Feb 26 at 13:17











          • I think Chida says something slightly different. He tries reconciling an opinion ostensibly in contrast to Magen Avraham and suggests that MA, who says that reading Mishnayot without comprehension is pointless, refers to an individual who is capable to comprehend but doesn’t attempt to; OTOH one who cannot comprehend then the plain reading has some value.

            – Oliver
            Feb 26 at 14:50



















          4














          Yes, with multiple revisions and memorization (as mentioned by @Dr.Shmuel in his answer on name of The Vilner Gaon) it's the right way, to aggree to learn a lot of topics, mainly mishnayot, despite that the understanding isn't sufficient. To learn Mishna is this. The Shlah (1) in masechet shevuot (the name of a part of the book) says that learning with Bartenura is called Gemara, not Mishna. Mishna is to read and memorize with a very minimal understanding of the words. One doesn't need to know If there is a חסורי מחסרא והכי קתני or other important things to understand rightly the Mishna. Learning is divided on Mikra, Mishna, Talmud. And we see from the below quoted Gemara that even Gemara's learning is ok if some insights are left in stand by (we can assume that Rav Kahana included Talmud in the meaning of Shmua).



          Bavli Shabbat 63a




          א"ר כהנא כד הוינא בר תמני סרי שנין והוה גמירנא ליה לכוליה הש"ס ולא הוה ידענא דאין מקרא יוצא מידי פשוטו עד השתא מאי קמ"ל דליגמר איניש והדר ליסבר:‏



          R`Kahana said: By the time I was eighteen years old I had studied the whole Shas [I think that the right translation is all topics], yet I did not know that a verse cannot depart from its plain meaning until to-day. What does he inform us? - That a man should study and subsequently understand.




          Rashi




          דליגמר איניש - לגרוס שמעתא מרביה ואף על גב דלא ידע לכולהו טעמיה:‏



          One needs to learn the topic from the his Rabbi, (they were informed orally) despite that one doesn't know the whole explanation.



          והדר ליסבר - טעמיה דהא קשה ליה לרב כהנא ולא הוה ידע להאי טעמא ותלמודיה הוה קים ליה מדהוה בר תמני סרי:‏



          And afterwards, one needs to understand the reasons. As Rav Kahana did. From his young age. He did know all the talmudic topics and was not aware of a primary principle of learning mikra (that a verse cannot be interpreted entirely out of its litteral sense).






          (1):




          ומכל שכן האידנא שזכינו לפירוש הרמב"ם והרב ברטנורא שמבארים המשנה כפי ההסכמה שבתלמוד וגם כתבו פסק ההלכה. הרי מעלת המשנה רבה כי מה שאמרו תחילה תלמוד אין לך מידה גדולה הימנה כי גירסת המשנה בלא תלמוד לא יגיענו לתכלית המכוון ללמד חוק ומשפט בישראל...‏







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          • 1





            Does ליגמר איניש והדר ליסבר actually imply that it’s still a fulfillment of Talmud Torah without understanding at all?

            – Alex
            Feb 25 at 19:39











          • @Alex you read my post?

            – kouty
            Feb 25 at 20:55






          • 1





            Yes. But I think that that Gemara is just saying that you shouldn't spend too much time trying to understand what you learn the first time, not that if you just read the words without any understanding at all that you're fulfilling Talmud Torah.

            – Alex
            Feb 25 at 20:57











          • Yes, indeed, but this is for Gemara. For Mishna the translation of this principle is to know loosely words meaning, without cheshbon and without חסורי מחסרא והכי קתני and without Rabbi ploni hsiinu t. k. Yka benayhu etc, i.e. very loose lecture and mainly chazarot, and memorizing is the most important

            – kouty
            Feb 25 at 21:11






          • 1





            But "very minimal understanding" and "without understanding" are not the same thing.

            – Alex
            Feb 25 at 21:13



















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          Even Shleima 8:1 from Aggadic commentary by Vilna Gaon




          One must first learn of the tanach. And all of Mishnah, even if he doesn’t understand the Mishnah.




          In the commentary, the Mishnah is likened to chopping down trees and Talmud to chopping the trees into wood pieces. Also, that one cannot really understand the Mishna, for that is why we have the Talmud, to explain the Mishnah. Nonetheless, the Mishnah is an integral spiritual endeavor and must be studied entirely from the onset regardless of comprehension ability.



          He seems to relate this verse in Ecclesiastes 6, with but God does not permit him to enjoy it referring to study of Mishnah, while the latter section of the verse referring to Talmud study.




          אִ֣ישׁ אֲשֶׁ֣ר יִתֶּן־ל֣וֹ הָאֱלֹהִ֡ים עֹשֶׁר֩ וּנְכָסִ֨ים וְכָב֜וֹד וְֽאֵינֶ֨נּוּ חָסֵ֥ר לְנַפְשׁ֣וֹ ׀ מִכֹּ֣ל אֲשֶׁר־יִתְאַוֶּ֗ה וְלֹֽא־יַשְׁלִיטֶ֤נּוּ הָֽאֱלֹהִים֙ לֶאֱכֹ֣ל מִמֶּ֔נּוּ כִּ֛י אִ֥ישׁ נָכְרִ֖י יֹֽאכֲלֶ֑נּוּ זֶ֥ה הֶ֛בֶל וָחֳלִ֥י רָ֖ע הֽוּא׃



          That God sometimes grants a man riches, property, and wealth, so that he does not want for anything his appetite may crave, but God does not permit him to enjoy it; instead, a stranger will enjoy it. That is futility and a grievous ill.







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          • 1





            "Understand" in "one cannot really understand the Mishna," means, I think, something higher-level than understanding what the words mean. If that's what's meant by "even if he doesn't understand the Mishnah," then I think that's slightly different from what the question is asking about, which seems to be just saying Hebrew words without knowing what they mean. Also, I'm not sure if "even if he doesn't understand the Mishnah" is an apt translation, in this context, of "אע"פ שאינו יודע לפרש המתניתין".

            – Isaac Moses
            Feb 25 at 21:36











          • In the context of even shleimah and the aggadic commentary it seems to make logical sense. I don’t see a basis to kind of fetch a further more exalted meaning, if that’s what you meant @isascmoses

            – Dr. Shmuel
            Feb 25 at 23:33






          • 1





            I mean that I don't think E"S is suggesting that it's valuable to mouth words of Mishna without any comprehension of their meaning.

            – Isaac Moses
            Feb 26 at 1:05






          • 1





            @Dr.Shmuel If the point is that you don't have to understand anything, why should it come first?

            – Alex
            Feb 26 at 2:48






          • 1





            @Dr.Shmuel Right, but you said that it means that one should learn Mishnah even if he understands nothing at all from learning it.

            – Alex
            Feb 26 at 2:54



















          2














          In his introduction to his commentary to the Torah, R. Yaakov Kamenetzky explains that only the Torah consists of God's direct words. Even Nevi'im and Ketuvim are only the prophet's own expression of God's words. Therefore the only subject that is a fulfillment of Talmud Torah without understanding is the Torah itself, since even when reading without understanding it is God's words that are being read. Anything else only qualifies as Talmud Torah when the person understands what he is reading, since the words themselves are not directly God's:




          ויוצא לנו נפקותא גדולה בין תורה לנביאים וכתובים דבתורה התיבות כמות שהן תורה הן שהרי אומר ממש דברי ד' ושפיר מקיים המצוה על ידי המקרא בלבד אפילו אם אינו יודע מאי קאמר משא"כ בנביאים שהלשון הוא הבעת מחשבת הנביא א"כ ע"כ כשהלה מבין מה שהוא אומר אזי הוא מקיים מצות תלמוד תורה ודו"ק והיינו ביאור דברי רש"י הנ"ל דלפיכך קרי ליה לחומש מקרא משום דבקריאתה בלבד הוא מקיים מצות ת"ת משא"כ בנו"כ דבהו רק על ידי הלמוד הוא מקיים מצות תלמוד תורה לבאר







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            1














            There are two completely different aspects of "Torah study":




            1. To know the Torah, to be proficient in the knowledge, to understand the reasoning etc. According to this aspect, reciting whatever without understanding does not constitute "Torah study".


            2. To "connect with G-d", to be constantly engaged in G-d's words, to cling to G-d, to fulfill "לֹא יָמוּשׁוּ מִפִּיךָ וּמִפִּי זַרְעֲךָ וּמִפִּי זֶרַע זַרְעֲךָ אָמַר ה' מֵעַתָּה וְעַד עוֹלָם" and to fulfill "וְהָגִיתָ בּוֹ יוֹמָם וָלַיְלָה". According to this aspect, reciting Torah verses or Mishnayos without understanding constitutes the Torah study.



            Because many Rabbis are not aware of this distinction, you might get contradicting answers, but in fact, they all fit [one of] those two aspects.






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              5 Answers
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              active

              oldest

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              5 Answers
              5






              active

              oldest

              votes









              active

              oldest

              votes






              active

              oldest

              votes









              7














              It appears from the words of the Shulchan Aruch HaRav that one does not although the Chida suggests one does fulfill the mitzva if one exerted himself to comprehend the words even if he did not succeed in understand the meaning.



              Shulchan Aruch HaRav (Laws of Torah Study 2:12-13) writes that




              Whereas one who studies the Oral Torah without understanding the
              words has fulfilled no mitzva
              , one who studies the Written Torah
              without understanding still fulfills the obligation of talmud Torah.




              R Yosef Dov Soloveitchek had also commented on this (see here)




              for that reason, the Brisker Rav suggested there is no concept of
              Oisiyos Machkimos (reading the text makes one wiser) regarding Torah
              SheBaal Peh.




              R Tzvi Sinensky writes




              We might explain the logic for this view as follows: the primary value
              of the Oral Torah is to understand the halakhot [...] Thus, one who does not understand the words
              fails to fulfill one’s obligation.
              However, study of the written Torah
              is qualitatively different; the very encounter is significant [...]




              However the Chida (Maris HaAyin, Avodah Zara 19) qualifies the ruling of the Shulchan Aruch HaRav




              This [...] only applies if one did not make a sincere effort to
              understand what he is saying. However, if one exerted himself to
              comprehend the words, he fulfills his mitzvah of learning Torah, even
              if he did not succeed in understand the meaning.







              share|improve this answer


























              • I wonder if tikun l'el shavuos is treated as mikra or as Torah sh'baal peh. It has Torah sh'baal peh but is in the form of being mikra

                – Dude
                Feb 25 at 16:10













              • Note there are different levels of understanding. To take an example that can apply to a lot of Zeraim: (a) there is a plant called x in Hebrew that certain halachos apply to (b) there is a plant called x in Hebrew and y in English that certain halachos apply to (c) there is a plant that has certain properties and therefore certain halachos apply to it (d) there is a plant that I had for dinner last night, I can tell that it has certain properties, and that's why certain halachos apply to it. In terms of understanding, I'd say (d) > (c) > (a) = (b)

                – Heshy
                Feb 25 at 19:56











              • See also the Maharal's introduction to Tiferes Yisrael

                – wfb
                Feb 25 at 20:16











              • regarding the comment of the Brisker Rav, Oisiyos Machkimos would not apply since Mishnayos are an Oral law,and not meant to be read, but to be recited. It should not depend on the question of reading Mishnayos without understanding.

                – simyou
                Feb 26 at 13:17











              • I think Chida says something slightly different. He tries reconciling an opinion ostensibly in contrast to Magen Avraham and suggests that MA, who says that reading Mishnayot without comprehension is pointless, refers to an individual who is capable to comprehend but doesn’t attempt to; OTOH one who cannot comprehend then the plain reading has some value.

                – Oliver
                Feb 26 at 14:50
















              7














              It appears from the words of the Shulchan Aruch HaRav that one does not although the Chida suggests one does fulfill the mitzva if one exerted himself to comprehend the words even if he did not succeed in understand the meaning.



              Shulchan Aruch HaRav (Laws of Torah Study 2:12-13) writes that




              Whereas one who studies the Oral Torah without understanding the
              words has fulfilled no mitzva
              , one who studies the Written Torah
              without understanding still fulfills the obligation of talmud Torah.




              R Yosef Dov Soloveitchek had also commented on this (see here)




              for that reason, the Brisker Rav suggested there is no concept of
              Oisiyos Machkimos (reading the text makes one wiser) regarding Torah
              SheBaal Peh.




              R Tzvi Sinensky writes




              We might explain the logic for this view as follows: the primary value
              of the Oral Torah is to understand the halakhot [...] Thus, one who does not understand the words
              fails to fulfill one’s obligation.
              However, study of the written Torah
              is qualitatively different; the very encounter is significant [...]




              However the Chida (Maris HaAyin, Avodah Zara 19) qualifies the ruling of the Shulchan Aruch HaRav




              This [...] only applies if one did not make a sincere effort to
              understand what he is saying. However, if one exerted himself to
              comprehend the words, he fulfills his mitzvah of learning Torah, even
              if he did not succeed in understand the meaning.







              share|improve this answer


























              • I wonder if tikun l'el shavuos is treated as mikra or as Torah sh'baal peh. It has Torah sh'baal peh but is in the form of being mikra

                – Dude
                Feb 25 at 16:10













              • Note there are different levels of understanding. To take an example that can apply to a lot of Zeraim: (a) there is a plant called x in Hebrew that certain halachos apply to (b) there is a plant called x in Hebrew and y in English that certain halachos apply to (c) there is a plant that has certain properties and therefore certain halachos apply to it (d) there is a plant that I had for dinner last night, I can tell that it has certain properties, and that's why certain halachos apply to it. In terms of understanding, I'd say (d) > (c) > (a) = (b)

                – Heshy
                Feb 25 at 19:56











              • See also the Maharal's introduction to Tiferes Yisrael

                – wfb
                Feb 25 at 20:16











              • regarding the comment of the Brisker Rav, Oisiyos Machkimos would not apply since Mishnayos are an Oral law,and not meant to be read, but to be recited. It should not depend on the question of reading Mishnayos without understanding.

                – simyou
                Feb 26 at 13:17











              • I think Chida says something slightly different. He tries reconciling an opinion ostensibly in contrast to Magen Avraham and suggests that MA, who says that reading Mishnayot without comprehension is pointless, refers to an individual who is capable to comprehend but doesn’t attempt to; OTOH one who cannot comprehend then the plain reading has some value.

                – Oliver
                Feb 26 at 14:50














              7












              7








              7







              It appears from the words of the Shulchan Aruch HaRav that one does not although the Chida suggests one does fulfill the mitzva if one exerted himself to comprehend the words even if he did not succeed in understand the meaning.



              Shulchan Aruch HaRav (Laws of Torah Study 2:12-13) writes that




              Whereas one who studies the Oral Torah without understanding the
              words has fulfilled no mitzva
              , one who studies the Written Torah
              without understanding still fulfills the obligation of talmud Torah.




              R Yosef Dov Soloveitchek had also commented on this (see here)




              for that reason, the Brisker Rav suggested there is no concept of
              Oisiyos Machkimos (reading the text makes one wiser) regarding Torah
              SheBaal Peh.




              R Tzvi Sinensky writes




              We might explain the logic for this view as follows: the primary value
              of the Oral Torah is to understand the halakhot [...] Thus, one who does not understand the words
              fails to fulfill one’s obligation.
              However, study of the written Torah
              is qualitatively different; the very encounter is significant [...]




              However the Chida (Maris HaAyin, Avodah Zara 19) qualifies the ruling of the Shulchan Aruch HaRav




              This [...] only applies if one did not make a sincere effort to
              understand what he is saying. However, if one exerted himself to
              comprehend the words, he fulfills his mitzvah of learning Torah, even
              if he did not succeed in understand the meaning.







              share|improve this answer















              It appears from the words of the Shulchan Aruch HaRav that one does not although the Chida suggests one does fulfill the mitzva if one exerted himself to comprehend the words even if he did not succeed in understand the meaning.



              Shulchan Aruch HaRav (Laws of Torah Study 2:12-13) writes that




              Whereas one who studies the Oral Torah without understanding the
              words has fulfilled no mitzva
              , one who studies the Written Torah
              without understanding still fulfills the obligation of talmud Torah.




              R Yosef Dov Soloveitchek had also commented on this (see here)




              for that reason, the Brisker Rav suggested there is no concept of
              Oisiyos Machkimos (reading the text makes one wiser) regarding Torah
              SheBaal Peh.




              R Tzvi Sinensky writes




              We might explain the logic for this view as follows: the primary value
              of the Oral Torah is to understand the halakhot [...] Thus, one who does not understand the words
              fails to fulfill one’s obligation.
              However, study of the written Torah
              is qualitatively different; the very encounter is significant [...]




              However the Chida (Maris HaAyin, Avodah Zara 19) qualifies the ruling of the Shulchan Aruch HaRav




              This [...] only applies if one did not make a sincere effort to
              understand what he is saying. However, if one exerted himself to
              comprehend the words, he fulfills his mitzvah of learning Torah, even
              if he did not succeed in understand the meaning.








              share|improve this answer














              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer








              edited Feb 26 at 7:49

























              answered Feb 25 at 7:46









              mblochmbloch

              25.6k545131




              25.6k545131













              • I wonder if tikun l'el shavuos is treated as mikra or as Torah sh'baal peh. It has Torah sh'baal peh but is in the form of being mikra

                – Dude
                Feb 25 at 16:10













              • Note there are different levels of understanding. To take an example that can apply to a lot of Zeraim: (a) there is a plant called x in Hebrew that certain halachos apply to (b) there is a plant called x in Hebrew and y in English that certain halachos apply to (c) there is a plant that has certain properties and therefore certain halachos apply to it (d) there is a plant that I had for dinner last night, I can tell that it has certain properties, and that's why certain halachos apply to it. In terms of understanding, I'd say (d) > (c) > (a) = (b)

                – Heshy
                Feb 25 at 19:56











              • See also the Maharal's introduction to Tiferes Yisrael

                – wfb
                Feb 25 at 20:16











              • regarding the comment of the Brisker Rav, Oisiyos Machkimos would not apply since Mishnayos are an Oral law,and not meant to be read, but to be recited. It should not depend on the question of reading Mishnayos without understanding.

                – simyou
                Feb 26 at 13:17











              • I think Chida says something slightly different. He tries reconciling an opinion ostensibly in contrast to Magen Avraham and suggests that MA, who says that reading Mishnayot without comprehension is pointless, refers to an individual who is capable to comprehend but doesn’t attempt to; OTOH one who cannot comprehend then the plain reading has some value.

                – Oliver
                Feb 26 at 14:50



















              • I wonder if tikun l'el shavuos is treated as mikra or as Torah sh'baal peh. It has Torah sh'baal peh but is in the form of being mikra

                – Dude
                Feb 25 at 16:10













              • Note there are different levels of understanding. To take an example that can apply to a lot of Zeraim: (a) there is a plant called x in Hebrew that certain halachos apply to (b) there is a plant called x in Hebrew and y in English that certain halachos apply to (c) there is a plant that has certain properties and therefore certain halachos apply to it (d) there is a plant that I had for dinner last night, I can tell that it has certain properties, and that's why certain halachos apply to it. In terms of understanding, I'd say (d) > (c) > (a) = (b)

                – Heshy
                Feb 25 at 19:56











              • See also the Maharal's introduction to Tiferes Yisrael

                – wfb
                Feb 25 at 20:16











              • regarding the comment of the Brisker Rav, Oisiyos Machkimos would not apply since Mishnayos are an Oral law,and not meant to be read, but to be recited. It should not depend on the question of reading Mishnayos without understanding.

                – simyou
                Feb 26 at 13:17











              • I think Chida says something slightly different. He tries reconciling an opinion ostensibly in contrast to Magen Avraham and suggests that MA, who says that reading Mishnayot without comprehension is pointless, refers to an individual who is capable to comprehend but doesn’t attempt to; OTOH one who cannot comprehend then the plain reading has some value.

                – Oliver
                Feb 26 at 14:50

















              I wonder if tikun l'el shavuos is treated as mikra or as Torah sh'baal peh. It has Torah sh'baal peh but is in the form of being mikra

              – Dude
              Feb 25 at 16:10







              I wonder if tikun l'el shavuos is treated as mikra or as Torah sh'baal peh. It has Torah sh'baal peh but is in the form of being mikra

              – Dude
              Feb 25 at 16:10















              Note there are different levels of understanding. To take an example that can apply to a lot of Zeraim: (a) there is a plant called x in Hebrew that certain halachos apply to (b) there is a plant called x in Hebrew and y in English that certain halachos apply to (c) there is a plant that has certain properties and therefore certain halachos apply to it (d) there is a plant that I had for dinner last night, I can tell that it has certain properties, and that's why certain halachos apply to it. In terms of understanding, I'd say (d) > (c) > (a) = (b)

              – Heshy
              Feb 25 at 19:56





              Note there are different levels of understanding. To take an example that can apply to a lot of Zeraim: (a) there is a plant called x in Hebrew that certain halachos apply to (b) there is a plant called x in Hebrew and y in English that certain halachos apply to (c) there is a plant that has certain properties and therefore certain halachos apply to it (d) there is a plant that I had for dinner last night, I can tell that it has certain properties, and that's why certain halachos apply to it. In terms of understanding, I'd say (d) > (c) > (a) = (b)

              – Heshy
              Feb 25 at 19:56













              See also the Maharal's introduction to Tiferes Yisrael

              – wfb
              Feb 25 at 20:16





              See also the Maharal's introduction to Tiferes Yisrael

              – wfb
              Feb 25 at 20:16













              regarding the comment of the Brisker Rav, Oisiyos Machkimos would not apply since Mishnayos are an Oral law,and not meant to be read, but to be recited. It should not depend on the question of reading Mishnayos without understanding.

              – simyou
              Feb 26 at 13:17





              regarding the comment of the Brisker Rav, Oisiyos Machkimos would not apply since Mishnayos are an Oral law,and not meant to be read, but to be recited. It should not depend on the question of reading Mishnayos without understanding.

              – simyou
              Feb 26 at 13:17













              I think Chida says something slightly different. He tries reconciling an opinion ostensibly in contrast to Magen Avraham and suggests that MA, who says that reading Mishnayot without comprehension is pointless, refers to an individual who is capable to comprehend but doesn’t attempt to; OTOH one who cannot comprehend then the plain reading has some value.

              – Oliver
              Feb 26 at 14:50





              I think Chida says something slightly different. He tries reconciling an opinion ostensibly in contrast to Magen Avraham and suggests that MA, who says that reading Mishnayot without comprehension is pointless, refers to an individual who is capable to comprehend but doesn’t attempt to; OTOH one who cannot comprehend then the plain reading has some value.

              – Oliver
              Feb 26 at 14:50











              4














              Yes, with multiple revisions and memorization (as mentioned by @Dr.Shmuel in his answer on name of The Vilner Gaon) it's the right way, to aggree to learn a lot of topics, mainly mishnayot, despite that the understanding isn't sufficient. To learn Mishna is this. The Shlah (1) in masechet shevuot (the name of a part of the book) says that learning with Bartenura is called Gemara, not Mishna. Mishna is to read and memorize with a very minimal understanding of the words. One doesn't need to know If there is a חסורי מחסרא והכי קתני or other important things to understand rightly the Mishna. Learning is divided on Mikra, Mishna, Talmud. And we see from the below quoted Gemara that even Gemara's learning is ok if some insights are left in stand by (we can assume that Rav Kahana included Talmud in the meaning of Shmua).



              Bavli Shabbat 63a




              א"ר כהנא כד הוינא בר תמני סרי שנין והוה גמירנא ליה לכוליה הש"ס ולא הוה ידענא דאין מקרא יוצא מידי פשוטו עד השתא מאי קמ"ל דליגמר איניש והדר ליסבר:‏



              R`Kahana said: By the time I was eighteen years old I had studied the whole Shas [I think that the right translation is all topics], yet I did not know that a verse cannot depart from its plain meaning until to-day. What does he inform us? - That a man should study and subsequently understand.




              Rashi




              דליגמר איניש - לגרוס שמעתא מרביה ואף על גב דלא ידע לכולהו טעמיה:‏



              One needs to learn the topic from the his Rabbi, (they were informed orally) despite that one doesn't know the whole explanation.



              והדר ליסבר - טעמיה דהא קשה ליה לרב כהנא ולא הוה ידע להאי טעמא ותלמודיה הוה קים ליה מדהוה בר תמני סרי:‏



              And afterwards, one needs to understand the reasons. As Rav Kahana did. From his young age. He did know all the talmudic topics and was not aware of a primary principle of learning mikra (that a verse cannot be interpreted entirely out of its litteral sense).






              (1):




              ומכל שכן האידנא שזכינו לפירוש הרמב"ם והרב ברטנורא שמבארים המשנה כפי ההסכמה שבתלמוד וגם כתבו פסק ההלכה. הרי מעלת המשנה רבה כי מה שאמרו תחילה תלמוד אין לך מידה גדולה הימנה כי גירסת המשנה בלא תלמוד לא יגיענו לתכלית המכוון ללמד חוק ומשפט בישראל...‏







              share|improve this answer





















              • 1





                Does ליגמר איניש והדר ליסבר actually imply that it’s still a fulfillment of Talmud Torah without understanding at all?

                – Alex
                Feb 25 at 19:39











              • @Alex you read my post?

                – kouty
                Feb 25 at 20:55






              • 1





                Yes. But I think that that Gemara is just saying that you shouldn't spend too much time trying to understand what you learn the first time, not that if you just read the words without any understanding at all that you're fulfilling Talmud Torah.

                – Alex
                Feb 25 at 20:57











              • Yes, indeed, but this is for Gemara. For Mishna the translation of this principle is to know loosely words meaning, without cheshbon and without חסורי מחסרא והכי קתני and without Rabbi ploni hsiinu t. k. Yka benayhu etc, i.e. very loose lecture and mainly chazarot, and memorizing is the most important

                – kouty
                Feb 25 at 21:11






              • 1





                But "very minimal understanding" and "without understanding" are not the same thing.

                – Alex
                Feb 25 at 21:13
















              4














              Yes, with multiple revisions and memorization (as mentioned by @Dr.Shmuel in his answer on name of The Vilner Gaon) it's the right way, to aggree to learn a lot of topics, mainly mishnayot, despite that the understanding isn't sufficient. To learn Mishna is this. The Shlah (1) in masechet shevuot (the name of a part of the book) says that learning with Bartenura is called Gemara, not Mishna. Mishna is to read and memorize with a very minimal understanding of the words. One doesn't need to know If there is a חסורי מחסרא והכי קתני or other important things to understand rightly the Mishna. Learning is divided on Mikra, Mishna, Talmud. And we see from the below quoted Gemara that even Gemara's learning is ok if some insights are left in stand by (we can assume that Rav Kahana included Talmud in the meaning of Shmua).



              Bavli Shabbat 63a




              א"ר כהנא כד הוינא בר תמני סרי שנין והוה גמירנא ליה לכוליה הש"ס ולא הוה ידענא דאין מקרא יוצא מידי פשוטו עד השתא מאי קמ"ל דליגמר איניש והדר ליסבר:‏



              R`Kahana said: By the time I was eighteen years old I had studied the whole Shas [I think that the right translation is all topics], yet I did not know that a verse cannot depart from its plain meaning until to-day. What does he inform us? - That a man should study and subsequently understand.




              Rashi




              דליגמר איניש - לגרוס שמעתא מרביה ואף על גב דלא ידע לכולהו טעמיה:‏



              One needs to learn the topic from the his Rabbi, (they were informed orally) despite that one doesn't know the whole explanation.



              והדר ליסבר - טעמיה דהא קשה ליה לרב כהנא ולא הוה ידע להאי טעמא ותלמודיה הוה קים ליה מדהוה בר תמני סרי:‏



              And afterwards, one needs to understand the reasons. As Rav Kahana did. From his young age. He did know all the talmudic topics and was not aware of a primary principle of learning mikra (that a verse cannot be interpreted entirely out of its litteral sense).






              (1):




              ומכל שכן האידנא שזכינו לפירוש הרמב"ם והרב ברטנורא שמבארים המשנה כפי ההסכמה שבתלמוד וגם כתבו פסק ההלכה. הרי מעלת המשנה רבה כי מה שאמרו תחילה תלמוד אין לך מידה גדולה הימנה כי גירסת המשנה בלא תלמוד לא יגיענו לתכלית המכוון ללמד חוק ומשפט בישראל...‏







              share|improve this answer





















              • 1





                Does ליגמר איניש והדר ליסבר actually imply that it’s still a fulfillment of Talmud Torah without understanding at all?

                – Alex
                Feb 25 at 19:39











              • @Alex you read my post?

                – kouty
                Feb 25 at 20:55






              • 1





                Yes. But I think that that Gemara is just saying that you shouldn't spend too much time trying to understand what you learn the first time, not that if you just read the words without any understanding at all that you're fulfilling Talmud Torah.

                – Alex
                Feb 25 at 20:57











              • Yes, indeed, but this is for Gemara. For Mishna the translation of this principle is to know loosely words meaning, without cheshbon and without חסורי מחסרא והכי קתני and without Rabbi ploni hsiinu t. k. Yka benayhu etc, i.e. very loose lecture and mainly chazarot, and memorizing is the most important

                – kouty
                Feb 25 at 21:11






              • 1





                But "very minimal understanding" and "without understanding" are not the same thing.

                – Alex
                Feb 25 at 21:13














              4












              4








              4







              Yes, with multiple revisions and memorization (as mentioned by @Dr.Shmuel in his answer on name of The Vilner Gaon) it's the right way, to aggree to learn a lot of topics, mainly mishnayot, despite that the understanding isn't sufficient. To learn Mishna is this. The Shlah (1) in masechet shevuot (the name of a part of the book) says that learning with Bartenura is called Gemara, not Mishna. Mishna is to read and memorize with a very minimal understanding of the words. One doesn't need to know If there is a חסורי מחסרא והכי קתני or other important things to understand rightly the Mishna. Learning is divided on Mikra, Mishna, Talmud. And we see from the below quoted Gemara that even Gemara's learning is ok if some insights are left in stand by (we can assume that Rav Kahana included Talmud in the meaning of Shmua).



              Bavli Shabbat 63a




              א"ר כהנא כד הוינא בר תמני סרי שנין והוה גמירנא ליה לכוליה הש"ס ולא הוה ידענא דאין מקרא יוצא מידי פשוטו עד השתא מאי קמ"ל דליגמר איניש והדר ליסבר:‏



              R`Kahana said: By the time I was eighteen years old I had studied the whole Shas [I think that the right translation is all topics], yet I did not know that a verse cannot depart from its plain meaning until to-day. What does he inform us? - That a man should study and subsequently understand.




              Rashi




              דליגמר איניש - לגרוס שמעתא מרביה ואף על גב דלא ידע לכולהו טעמיה:‏



              One needs to learn the topic from the his Rabbi, (they were informed orally) despite that one doesn't know the whole explanation.



              והדר ליסבר - טעמיה דהא קשה ליה לרב כהנא ולא הוה ידע להאי טעמא ותלמודיה הוה קים ליה מדהוה בר תמני סרי:‏



              And afterwards, one needs to understand the reasons. As Rav Kahana did. From his young age. He did know all the talmudic topics and was not aware of a primary principle of learning mikra (that a verse cannot be interpreted entirely out of its litteral sense).






              (1):




              ומכל שכן האידנא שזכינו לפירוש הרמב"ם והרב ברטנורא שמבארים המשנה כפי ההסכמה שבתלמוד וגם כתבו פסק ההלכה. הרי מעלת המשנה רבה כי מה שאמרו תחילה תלמוד אין לך מידה גדולה הימנה כי גירסת המשנה בלא תלמוד לא יגיענו לתכלית המכוון ללמד חוק ומשפט בישראל...‏







              share|improve this answer















              Yes, with multiple revisions and memorization (as mentioned by @Dr.Shmuel in his answer on name of The Vilner Gaon) it's the right way, to aggree to learn a lot of topics, mainly mishnayot, despite that the understanding isn't sufficient. To learn Mishna is this. The Shlah (1) in masechet shevuot (the name of a part of the book) says that learning with Bartenura is called Gemara, not Mishna. Mishna is to read and memorize with a very minimal understanding of the words. One doesn't need to know If there is a חסורי מחסרא והכי קתני or other important things to understand rightly the Mishna. Learning is divided on Mikra, Mishna, Talmud. And we see from the below quoted Gemara that even Gemara's learning is ok if some insights are left in stand by (we can assume that Rav Kahana included Talmud in the meaning of Shmua).



              Bavli Shabbat 63a




              א"ר כהנא כד הוינא בר תמני סרי שנין והוה גמירנא ליה לכוליה הש"ס ולא הוה ידענא דאין מקרא יוצא מידי פשוטו עד השתא מאי קמ"ל דליגמר איניש והדר ליסבר:‏



              R`Kahana said: By the time I was eighteen years old I had studied the whole Shas [I think that the right translation is all topics], yet I did not know that a verse cannot depart from its plain meaning until to-day. What does he inform us? - That a man should study and subsequently understand.




              Rashi




              דליגמר איניש - לגרוס שמעתא מרביה ואף על גב דלא ידע לכולהו טעמיה:‏



              One needs to learn the topic from the his Rabbi, (they were informed orally) despite that one doesn't know the whole explanation.



              והדר ליסבר - טעמיה דהא קשה ליה לרב כהנא ולא הוה ידע להאי טעמא ותלמודיה הוה קים ליה מדהוה בר תמני סרי:‏



              And afterwards, one needs to understand the reasons. As Rav Kahana did. From his young age. He did know all the talmudic topics and was not aware of a primary principle of learning mikra (that a verse cannot be interpreted entirely out of its litteral sense).






              (1):




              ומכל שכן האידנא שזכינו לפירוש הרמב"ם והרב ברטנורא שמבארים המשנה כפי ההסכמה שבתלמוד וגם כתבו פסק ההלכה. הרי מעלת המשנה רבה כי מה שאמרו תחילה תלמוד אין לך מידה גדולה הימנה כי גירסת המשנה בלא תלמוד לא יגיענו לתכלית המכוון ללמד חוק ומשפט בישראל...‏








              share|improve this answer














              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer








              edited Feb 26 at 11:01

























              answered Feb 25 at 10:17









              koutykouty

              14.6k31845




              14.6k31845








              • 1





                Does ליגמר איניש והדר ליסבר actually imply that it’s still a fulfillment of Talmud Torah without understanding at all?

                – Alex
                Feb 25 at 19:39











              • @Alex you read my post?

                – kouty
                Feb 25 at 20:55






              • 1





                Yes. But I think that that Gemara is just saying that you shouldn't spend too much time trying to understand what you learn the first time, not that if you just read the words without any understanding at all that you're fulfilling Talmud Torah.

                – Alex
                Feb 25 at 20:57











              • Yes, indeed, but this is for Gemara. For Mishna the translation of this principle is to know loosely words meaning, without cheshbon and without חסורי מחסרא והכי קתני and without Rabbi ploni hsiinu t. k. Yka benayhu etc, i.e. very loose lecture and mainly chazarot, and memorizing is the most important

                – kouty
                Feb 25 at 21:11






              • 1





                But "very minimal understanding" and "without understanding" are not the same thing.

                – Alex
                Feb 25 at 21:13














              • 1





                Does ליגמר איניש והדר ליסבר actually imply that it’s still a fulfillment of Talmud Torah without understanding at all?

                – Alex
                Feb 25 at 19:39











              • @Alex you read my post?

                – kouty
                Feb 25 at 20:55






              • 1





                Yes. But I think that that Gemara is just saying that you shouldn't spend too much time trying to understand what you learn the first time, not that if you just read the words without any understanding at all that you're fulfilling Talmud Torah.

                – Alex
                Feb 25 at 20:57











              • Yes, indeed, but this is for Gemara. For Mishna the translation of this principle is to know loosely words meaning, without cheshbon and without חסורי מחסרא והכי קתני and without Rabbi ploni hsiinu t. k. Yka benayhu etc, i.e. very loose lecture and mainly chazarot, and memorizing is the most important

                – kouty
                Feb 25 at 21:11






              • 1





                But "very minimal understanding" and "without understanding" are not the same thing.

                – Alex
                Feb 25 at 21:13








              1




              1





              Does ליגמר איניש והדר ליסבר actually imply that it’s still a fulfillment of Talmud Torah without understanding at all?

              – Alex
              Feb 25 at 19:39





              Does ליגמר איניש והדר ליסבר actually imply that it’s still a fulfillment of Talmud Torah without understanding at all?

              – Alex
              Feb 25 at 19:39













              @Alex you read my post?

              – kouty
              Feb 25 at 20:55





              @Alex you read my post?

              – kouty
              Feb 25 at 20:55




              1




              1





              Yes. But I think that that Gemara is just saying that you shouldn't spend too much time trying to understand what you learn the first time, not that if you just read the words without any understanding at all that you're fulfilling Talmud Torah.

              – Alex
              Feb 25 at 20:57





              Yes. But I think that that Gemara is just saying that you shouldn't spend too much time trying to understand what you learn the first time, not that if you just read the words without any understanding at all that you're fulfilling Talmud Torah.

              – Alex
              Feb 25 at 20:57













              Yes, indeed, but this is for Gemara. For Mishna the translation of this principle is to know loosely words meaning, without cheshbon and without חסורי מחסרא והכי קתני and without Rabbi ploni hsiinu t. k. Yka benayhu etc, i.e. very loose lecture and mainly chazarot, and memorizing is the most important

              – kouty
              Feb 25 at 21:11





              Yes, indeed, but this is for Gemara. For Mishna the translation of this principle is to know loosely words meaning, without cheshbon and without חסורי מחסרא והכי קתני and without Rabbi ploni hsiinu t. k. Yka benayhu etc, i.e. very loose lecture and mainly chazarot, and memorizing is the most important

              – kouty
              Feb 25 at 21:11




              1




              1





              But "very minimal understanding" and "without understanding" are not the same thing.

              – Alex
              Feb 25 at 21:13





              But "very minimal understanding" and "without understanding" are not the same thing.

              – Alex
              Feb 25 at 21:13











              3














              Even Shleima 8:1 from Aggadic commentary by Vilna Gaon




              One must first learn of the tanach. And all of Mishnah, even if he doesn’t understand the Mishnah.




              In the commentary, the Mishnah is likened to chopping down trees and Talmud to chopping the trees into wood pieces. Also, that one cannot really understand the Mishna, for that is why we have the Talmud, to explain the Mishnah. Nonetheless, the Mishnah is an integral spiritual endeavor and must be studied entirely from the onset regardless of comprehension ability.



              He seems to relate this verse in Ecclesiastes 6, with but God does not permit him to enjoy it referring to study of Mishnah, while the latter section of the verse referring to Talmud study.




              אִ֣ישׁ אֲשֶׁ֣ר יִתֶּן־ל֣וֹ הָאֱלֹהִ֡ים עֹשֶׁר֩ וּנְכָסִ֨ים וְכָב֜וֹד וְֽאֵינֶ֨נּוּ חָסֵ֥ר לְנַפְשׁ֣וֹ ׀ מִכֹּ֣ל אֲשֶׁר־יִתְאַוֶּ֗ה וְלֹֽא־יַשְׁלִיטֶ֤נּוּ הָֽאֱלֹהִים֙ לֶאֱכֹ֣ל מִמֶּ֔נּוּ כִּ֛י אִ֥ישׁ נָכְרִ֖י יֹֽאכֲלֶ֑נּוּ זֶ֥ה הֶ֛בֶל וָחֳלִ֥י רָ֖ע הֽוּא׃



              That God sometimes grants a man riches, property, and wealth, so that he does not want for anything his appetite may crave, but God does not permit him to enjoy it; instead, a stranger will enjoy it. That is futility and a grievous ill.







              share|improve this answer





















              • 1





                "Understand" in "one cannot really understand the Mishna," means, I think, something higher-level than understanding what the words mean. If that's what's meant by "even if he doesn't understand the Mishnah," then I think that's slightly different from what the question is asking about, which seems to be just saying Hebrew words without knowing what they mean. Also, I'm not sure if "even if he doesn't understand the Mishnah" is an apt translation, in this context, of "אע"פ שאינו יודע לפרש המתניתין".

                – Isaac Moses
                Feb 25 at 21:36











              • In the context of even shleimah and the aggadic commentary it seems to make logical sense. I don’t see a basis to kind of fetch a further more exalted meaning, if that’s what you meant @isascmoses

                – Dr. Shmuel
                Feb 25 at 23:33






              • 1





                I mean that I don't think E"S is suggesting that it's valuable to mouth words of Mishna without any comprehension of their meaning.

                – Isaac Moses
                Feb 26 at 1:05






              • 1





                @Dr.Shmuel If the point is that you don't have to understand anything, why should it come first?

                – Alex
                Feb 26 at 2:48






              • 1





                @Dr.Shmuel Right, but you said that it means that one should learn Mishnah even if he understands nothing at all from learning it.

                – Alex
                Feb 26 at 2:54
















              3














              Even Shleima 8:1 from Aggadic commentary by Vilna Gaon




              One must first learn of the tanach. And all of Mishnah, even if he doesn’t understand the Mishnah.




              In the commentary, the Mishnah is likened to chopping down trees and Talmud to chopping the trees into wood pieces. Also, that one cannot really understand the Mishna, for that is why we have the Talmud, to explain the Mishnah. Nonetheless, the Mishnah is an integral spiritual endeavor and must be studied entirely from the onset regardless of comprehension ability.



              He seems to relate this verse in Ecclesiastes 6, with but God does not permit him to enjoy it referring to study of Mishnah, while the latter section of the verse referring to Talmud study.




              אִ֣ישׁ אֲשֶׁ֣ר יִתֶּן־ל֣וֹ הָאֱלֹהִ֡ים עֹשֶׁר֩ וּנְכָסִ֨ים וְכָב֜וֹד וְֽאֵינֶ֨נּוּ חָסֵ֥ר לְנַפְשׁ֣וֹ ׀ מִכֹּ֣ל אֲשֶׁר־יִתְאַוֶּ֗ה וְלֹֽא־יַשְׁלִיטֶ֤נּוּ הָֽאֱלֹהִים֙ לֶאֱכֹ֣ל מִמֶּ֔נּוּ כִּ֛י אִ֥ישׁ נָכְרִ֖י יֹֽאכֲלֶ֑נּוּ זֶ֥ה הֶ֛בֶל וָחֳלִ֥י רָ֖ע הֽוּא׃



              That God sometimes grants a man riches, property, and wealth, so that he does not want for anything his appetite may crave, but God does not permit him to enjoy it; instead, a stranger will enjoy it. That is futility and a grievous ill.







              share|improve this answer





















              • 1





                "Understand" in "one cannot really understand the Mishna," means, I think, something higher-level than understanding what the words mean. If that's what's meant by "even if he doesn't understand the Mishnah," then I think that's slightly different from what the question is asking about, which seems to be just saying Hebrew words without knowing what they mean. Also, I'm not sure if "even if he doesn't understand the Mishnah" is an apt translation, in this context, of "אע"פ שאינו יודע לפרש המתניתין".

                – Isaac Moses
                Feb 25 at 21:36











              • In the context of even shleimah and the aggadic commentary it seems to make logical sense. I don’t see a basis to kind of fetch a further more exalted meaning, if that’s what you meant @isascmoses

                – Dr. Shmuel
                Feb 25 at 23:33






              • 1





                I mean that I don't think E"S is suggesting that it's valuable to mouth words of Mishna without any comprehension of their meaning.

                – Isaac Moses
                Feb 26 at 1:05






              • 1





                @Dr.Shmuel If the point is that you don't have to understand anything, why should it come first?

                – Alex
                Feb 26 at 2:48






              • 1





                @Dr.Shmuel Right, but you said that it means that one should learn Mishnah even if he understands nothing at all from learning it.

                – Alex
                Feb 26 at 2:54














              3












              3








              3







              Even Shleima 8:1 from Aggadic commentary by Vilna Gaon




              One must first learn of the tanach. And all of Mishnah, even if he doesn’t understand the Mishnah.




              In the commentary, the Mishnah is likened to chopping down trees and Talmud to chopping the trees into wood pieces. Also, that one cannot really understand the Mishna, for that is why we have the Talmud, to explain the Mishnah. Nonetheless, the Mishnah is an integral spiritual endeavor and must be studied entirely from the onset regardless of comprehension ability.



              He seems to relate this verse in Ecclesiastes 6, with but God does not permit him to enjoy it referring to study of Mishnah, while the latter section of the verse referring to Talmud study.




              אִ֣ישׁ אֲשֶׁ֣ר יִתֶּן־ל֣וֹ הָאֱלֹהִ֡ים עֹשֶׁר֩ וּנְכָסִ֨ים וְכָב֜וֹד וְֽאֵינֶ֨נּוּ חָסֵ֥ר לְנַפְשׁ֣וֹ ׀ מִכֹּ֣ל אֲשֶׁר־יִתְאַוֶּ֗ה וְלֹֽא־יַשְׁלִיטֶ֤נּוּ הָֽאֱלֹהִים֙ לֶאֱכֹ֣ל מִמֶּ֔נּוּ כִּ֛י אִ֥ישׁ נָכְרִ֖י יֹֽאכֲלֶ֑נּוּ זֶ֥ה הֶ֛בֶל וָחֳלִ֥י רָ֖ע הֽוּא׃



              That God sometimes grants a man riches, property, and wealth, so that he does not want for anything his appetite may crave, but God does not permit him to enjoy it; instead, a stranger will enjoy it. That is futility and a grievous ill.







              share|improve this answer















              Even Shleima 8:1 from Aggadic commentary by Vilna Gaon




              One must first learn of the tanach. And all of Mishnah, even if he doesn’t understand the Mishnah.




              In the commentary, the Mishnah is likened to chopping down trees and Talmud to chopping the trees into wood pieces. Also, that one cannot really understand the Mishna, for that is why we have the Talmud, to explain the Mishnah. Nonetheless, the Mishnah is an integral spiritual endeavor and must be studied entirely from the onset regardless of comprehension ability.



              He seems to relate this verse in Ecclesiastes 6, with but God does not permit him to enjoy it referring to study of Mishnah, while the latter section of the verse referring to Talmud study.




              אִ֣ישׁ אֲשֶׁ֣ר יִתֶּן־ל֣וֹ הָאֱלֹהִ֡ים עֹשֶׁר֩ וּנְכָסִ֨ים וְכָב֜וֹד וְֽאֵינֶ֨נּוּ חָסֵ֥ר לְנַפְשׁ֣וֹ ׀ מִכֹּ֣ל אֲשֶׁר־יִתְאַוֶּ֗ה וְלֹֽא־יַשְׁלִיטֶ֤נּוּ הָֽאֱלֹהִים֙ לֶאֱכֹ֣ל מִמֶּ֔נּוּ כִּ֛י אִ֥ישׁ נָכְרִ֖י יֹֽאכֲלֶ֑נּוּ זֶ֥ה הֶ֛בֶל וָחֳלִ֥י רָ֖ע הֽוּא׃



              That God sometimes grants a man riches, property, and wealth, so that he does not want for anything his appetite may crave, but God does not permit him to enjoy it; instead, a stranger will enjoy it. That is futility and a grievous ill.








              share|improve this answer














              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer








              edited Feb 25 at 8:24

























              answered Feb 25 at 8:11









              Dr. ShmuelDr. Shmuel

              3,2081947




              3,2081947








              • 1





                "Understand" in "one cannot really understand the Mishna," means, I think, something higher-level than understanding what the words mean. If that's what's meant by "even if he doesn't understand the Mishnah," then I think that's slightly different from what the question is asking about, which seems to be just saying Hebrew words without knowing what they mean. Also, I'm not sure if "even if he doesn't understand the Mishnah" is an apt translation, in this context, of "אע"פ שאינו יודע לפרש המתניתין".

                – Isaac Moses
                Feb 25 at 21:36











              • In the context of even shleimah and the aggadic commentary it seems to make logical sense. I don’t see a basis to kind of fetch a further more exalted meaning, if that’s what you meant @isascmoses

                – Dr. Shmuel
                Feb 25 at 23:33






              • 1





                I mean that I don't think E"S is suggesting that it's valuable to mouth words of Mishna without any comprehension of their meaning.

                – Isaac Moses
                Feb 26 at 1:05






              • 1





                @Dr.Shmuel If the point is that you don't have to understand anything, why should it come first?

                – Alex
                Feb 26 at 2:48






              • 1





                @Dr.Shmuel Right, but you said that it means that one should learn Mishnah even if he understands nothing at all from learning it.

                – Alex
                Feb 26 at 2:54














              • 1





                "Understand" in "one cannot really understand the Mishna," means, I think, something higher-level than understanding what the words mean. If that's what's meant by "even if he doesn't understand the Mishnah," then I think that's slightly different from what the question is asking about, which seems to be just saying Hebrew words without knowing what they mean. Also, I'm not sure if "even if he doesn't understand the Mishnah" is an apt translation, in this context, of "אע"פ שאינו יודע לפרש המתניתין".

                – Isaac Moses
                Feb 25 at 21:36











              • In the context of even shleimah and the aggadic commentary it seems to make logical sense. I don’t see a basis to kind of fetch a further more exalted meaning, if that’s what you meant @isascmoses

                – Dr. Shmuel
                Feb 25 at 23:33






              • 1





                I mean that I don't think E"S is suggesting that it's valuable to mouth words of Mishna without any comprehension of their meaning.

                – Isaac Moses
                Feb 26 at 1:05






              • 1





                @Dr.Shmuel If the point is that you don't have to understand anything, why should it come first?

                – Alex
                Feb 26 at 2:48






              • 1





                @Dr.Shmuel Right, but you said that it means that one should learn Mishnah even if he understands nothing at all from learning it.

                – Alex
                Feb 26 at 2:54








              1




              1





              "Understand" in "one cannot really understand the Mishna," means, I think, something higher-level than understanding what the words mean. If that's what's meant by "even if he doesn't understand the Mishnah," then I think that's slightly different from what the question is asking about, which seems to be just saying Hebrew words without knowing what they mean. Also, I'm not sure if "even if he doesn't understand the Mishnah" is an apt translation, in this context, of "אע"פ שאינו יודע לפרש המתניתין".

              – Isaac Moses
              Feb 25 at 21:36





              "Understand" in "one cannot really understand the Mishna," means, I think, something higher-level than understanding what the words mean. If that's what's meant by "even if he doesn't understand the Mishnah," then I think that's slightly different from what the question is asking about, which seems to be just saying Hebrew words without knowing what they mean. Also, I'm not sure if "even if he doesn't understand the Mishnah" is an apt translation, in this context, of "אע"פ שאינו יודע לפרש המתניתין".

              – Isaac Moses
              Feb 25 at 21:36













              In the context of even shleimah and the aggadic commentary it seems to make logical sense. I don’t see a basis to kind of fetch a further more exalted meaning, if that’s what you meant @isascmoses

              – Dr. Shmuel
              Feb 25 at 23:33





              In the context of even shleimah and the aggadic commentary it seems to make logical sense. I don’t see a basis to kind of fetch a further more exalted meaning, if that’s what you meant @isascmoses

              – Dr. Shmuel
              Feb 25 at 23:33




              1




              1





              I mean that I don't think E"S is suggesting that it's valuable to mouth words of Mishna without any comprehension of their meaning.

              – Isaac Moses
              Feb 26 at 1:05





              I mean that I don't think E"S is suggesting that it's valuable to mouth words of Mishna without any comprehension of their meaning.

              – Isaac Moses
              Feb 26 at 1:05




              1




              1





              @Dr.Shmuel If the point is that you don't have to understand anything, why should it come first?

              – Alex
              Feb 26 at 2:48





              @Dr.Shmuel If the point is that you don't have to understand anything, why should it come first?

              – Alex
              Feb 26 at 2:48




              1




              1





              @Dr.Shmuel Right, but you said that it means that one should learn Mishnah even if he understands nothing at all from learning it.

              – Alex
              Feb 26 at 2:54





              @Dr.Shmuel Right, but you said that it means that one should learn Mishnah even if he understands nothing at all from learning it.

              – Alex
              Feb 26 at 2:54











              2














              In his introduction to his commentary to the Torah, R. Yaakov Kamenetzky explains that only the Torah consists of God's direct words. Even Nevi'im and Ketuvim are only the prophet's own expression of God's words. Therefore the only subject that is a fulfillment of Talmud Torah without understanding is the Torah itself, since even when reading without understanding it is God's words that are being read. Anything else only qualifies as Talmud Torah when the person understands what he is reading, since the words themselves are not directly God's:




              ויוצא לנו נפקותא גדולה בין תורה לנביאים וכתובים דבתורה התיבות כמות שהן תורה הן שהרי אומר ממש דברי ד' ושפיר מקיים המצוה על ידי המקרא בלבד אפילו אם אינו יודע מאי קאמר משא"כ בנביאים שהלשון הוא הבעת מחשבת הנביא א"כ ע"כ כשהלה מבין מה שהוא אומר אזי הוא מקיים מצות תלמוד תורה ודו"ק והיינו ביאור דברי רש"י הנ"ל דלפיכך קרי ליה לחומש מקרא משום דבקריאתה בלבד הוא מקיים מצות ת"ת משא"כ בנו"כ דבהו רק על ידי הלמוד הוא מקיים מצות תלמוד תורה לבאר







              share|improve this answer




























                2














                In his introduction to his commentary to the Torah, R. Yaakov Kamenetzky explains that only the Torah consists of God's direct words. Even Nevi'im and Ketuvim are only the prophet's own expression of God's words. Therefore the only subject that is a fulfillment of Talmud Torah without understanding is the Torah itself, since even when reading without understanding it is God's words that are being read. Anything else only qualifies as Talmud Torah when the person understands what he is reading, since the words themselves are not directly God's:




                ויוצא לנו נפקותא גדולה בין תורה לנביאים וכתובים דבתורה התיבות כמות שהן תורה הן שהרי אומר ממש דברי ד' ושפיר מקיים המצוה על ידי המקרא בלבד אפילו אם אינו יודע מאי קאמר משא"כ בנביאים שהלשון הוא הבעת מחשבת הנביא א"כ ע"כ כשהלה מבין מה שהוא אומר אזי הוא מקיים מצות תלמוד תורה ודו"ק והיינו ביאור דברי רש"י הנ"ל דלפיכך קרי ליה לחומש מקרא משום דבקריאתה בלבד הוא מקיים מצות ת"ת משא"כ בנו"כ דבהו רק על ידי הלמוד הוא מקיים מצות תלמוד תורה לבאר







                share|improve this answer


























                  2












                  2








                  2







                  In his introduction to his commentary to the Torah, R. Yaakov Kamenetzky explains that only the Torah consists of God's direct words. Even Nevi'im and Ketuvim are only the prophet's own expression of God's words. Therefore the only subject that is a fulfillment of Talmud Torah without understanding is the Torah itself, since even when reading without understanding it is God's words that are being read. Anything else only qualifies as Talmud Torah when the person understands what he is reading, since the words themselves are not directly God's:




                  ויוצא לנו נפקותא גדולה בין תורה לנביאים וכתובים דבתורה התיבות כמות שהן תורה הן שהרי אומר ממש דברי ד' ושפיר מקיים המצוה על ידי המקרא בלבד אפילו אם אינו יודע מאי קאמר משא"כ בנביאים שהלשון הוא הבעת מחשבת הנביא א"כ ע"כ כשהלה מבין מה שהוא אומר אזי הוא מקיים מצות תלמוד תורה ודו"ק והיינו ביאור דברי רש"י הנ"ל דלפיכך קרי ליה לחומש מקרא משום דבקריאתה בלבד הוא מקיים מצות ת"ת משא"כ בנו"כ דבהו רק על ידי הלמוד הוא מקיים מצות תלמוד תורה לבאר







                  share|improve this answer













                  In his introduction to his commentary to the Torah, R. Yaakov Kamenetzky explains that only the Torah consists of God's direct words. Even Nevi'im and Ketuvim are only the prophet's own expression of God's words. Therefore the only subject that is a fulfillment of Talmud Torah without understanding is the Torah itself, since even when reading without understanding it is God's words that are being read. Anything else only qualifies as Talmud Torah when the person understands what he is reading, since the words themselves are not directly God's:




                  ויוצא לנו נפקותא גדולה בין תורה לנביאים וכתובים דבתורה התיבות כמות שהן תורה הן שהרי אומר ממש דברי ד' ושפיר מקיים המצוה על ידי המקרא בלבד אפילו אם אינו יודע מאי קאמר משא"כ בנביאים שהלשון הוא הבעת מחשבת הנביא א"כ ע"כ כשהלה מבין מה שהוא אומר אזי הוא מקיים מצות תלמוד תורה ודו"ק והיינו ביאור דברי רש"י הנ"ל דלפיכך קרי ליה לחומש מקרא משום דבקריאתה בלבד הוא מקיים מצות ת"ת משא"כ בנו"כ דבהו רק על ידי הלמוד הוא מקיים מצות תלמוד תורה לבאר








                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered Feb 25 at 7:47









                  AlexAlex

                  21.5k153126




                  21.5k153126























                      1














                      There are two completely different aspects of "Torah study":




                      1. To know the Torah, to be proficient in the knowledge, to understand the reasoning etc. According to this aspect, reciting whatever without understanding does not constitute "Torah study".


                      2. To "connect with G-d", to be constantly engaged in G-d's words, to cling to G-d, to fulfill "לֹא יָמוּשׁוּ מִפִּיךָ וּמִפִּי זַרְעֲךָ וּמִפִּי זֶרַע זַרְעֲךָ אָמַר ה' מֵעַתָּה וְעַד עוֹלָם" and to fulfill "וְהָגִיתָ בּוֹ יוֹמָם וָלַיְלָה". According to this aspect, reciting Torah verses or Mishnayos without understanding constitutes the Torah study.



                      Because many Rabbis are not aware of this distinction, you might get contradicting answers, but in fact, they all fit [one of] those two aspects.






                      share|improve this answer




























                        1














                        There are two completely different aspects of "Torah study":




                        1. To know the Torah, to be proficient in the knowledge, to understand the reasoning etc. According to this aspect, reciting whatever without understanding does not constitute "Torah study".


                        2. To "connect with G-d", to be constantly engaged in G-d's words, to cling to G-d, to fulfill "לֹא יָמוּשׁוּ מִפִּיךָ וּמִפִּי זַרְעֲךָ וּמִפִּי זֶרַע זַרְעֲךָ אָמַר ה' מֵעַתָּה וְעַד עוֹלָם" and to fulfill "וְהָגִיתָ בּוֹ יוֹמָם וָלַיְלָה". According to this aspect, reciting Torah verses or Mishnayos without understanding constitutes the Torah study.



                        Because many Rabbis are not aware of this distinction, you might get contradicting answers, but in fact, they all fit [one of] those two aspects.






                        share|improve this answer


























                          1












                          1








                          1







                          There are two completely different aspects of "Torah study":




                          1. To know the Torah, to be proficient in the knowledge, to understand the reasoning etc. According to this aspect, reciting whatever without understanding does not constitute "Torah study".


                          2. To "connect with G-d", to be constantly engaged in G-d's words, to cling to G-d, to fulfill "לֹא יָמוּשׁוּ מִפִּיךָ וּמִפִּי זַרְעֲךָ וּמִפִּי זֶרַע זַרְעֲךָ אָמַר ה' מֵעַתָּה וְעַד עוֹלָם" and to fulfill "וְהָגִיתָ בּוֹ יוֹמָם וָלַיְלָה". According to this aspect, reciting Torah verses or Mishnayos without understanding constitutes the Torah study.



                          Because many Rabbis are not aware of this distinction, you might get contradicting answers, but in fact, they all fit [one of] those two aspects.






                          share|improve this answer













                          There are two completely different aspects of "Torah study":




                          1. To know the Torah, to be proficient in the knowledge, to understand the reasoning etc. According to this aspect, reciting whatever without understanding does not constitute "Torah study".


                          2. To "connect with G-d", to be constantly engaged in G-d's words, to cling to G-d, to fulfill "לֹא יָמוּשׁוּ מִפִּיךָ וּמִפִּי זַרְעֲךָ וּמִפִּי זֶרַע זַרְעֲךָ אָמַר ה' מֵעַתָּה וְעַד עוֹלָם" and to fulfill "וְהָגִיתָ בּוֹ יוֹמָם וָלַיְלָה". According to this aspect, reciting Torah verses or Mishnayos without understanding constitutes the Torah study.



                          Because many Rabbis are not aware of this distinction, you might get contradicting answers, but in fact, they all fit [one of] those two aspects.







                          share|improve this answer












                          share|improve this answer



                          share|improve this answer










                          answered Feb 25 at 11:17









                          Al BerkoAl Berko

                          5,612528




                          5,612528















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