Question regarding monoids.











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Let $(X,circ,e)$ be a monoid, for set $X$, binary operation $circ$, and identity element $e$.



Suppose
$$
A_1 circ A_2 circ ldots circ A_n
= B_1 circ B_2 circ ldots circ B_n
= C,
$$

where the A's, B's, and C belong to X with the property that if any $At = x circ y$ for some $x$ and $y$ in $X$, then one of $x$ or $y$ is $At$ and the other is $e$. Similarly for any $Bt = x circ y$ for some $x$ and $y$ in $X$.



If $n$ is such that for all other $D_1 circ D_2 circ ldots circ D_m = C$, where $D$'s belong to $X$ and $Dt = x circ y$ implies one of $x$ or $y$ is $Dt$ and the other is $e$, then $m ge n$, is it true that $A_1= B_1, A_2 = B_2, ldots , A_n = B_n$?










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    Let $(X,circ,e)$ be a monoid, for set $X$, binary operation $circ$, and identity element $e$.



    Suppose
    $$
    A_1 circ A_2 circ ldots circ A_n
    = B_1 circ B_2 circ ldots circ B_n
    = C,
    $$

    where the A's, B's, and C belong to X with the property that if any $At = x circ y$ for some $x$ and $y$ in $X$, then one of $x$ or $y$ is $At$ and the other is $e$. Similarly for any $Bt = x circ y$ for some $x$ and $y$ in $X$.



    If $n$ is such that for all other $D_1 circ D_2 circ ldots circ D_m = C$, where $D$'s belong to $X$ and $Dt = x circ y$ implies one of $x$ or $y$ is $Dt$ and the other is $e$, then $m ge n$, is it true that $A_1= B_1, A_2 = B_2, ldots , A_n = B_n$?










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      up vote
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      up vote
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      Let $(X,circ,e)$ be a monoid, for set $X$, binary operation $circ$, and identity element $e$.



      Suppose
      $$
      A_1 circ A_2 circ ldots circ A_n
      = B_1 circ B_2 circ ldots circ B_n
      = C,
      $$

      where the A's, B's, and C belong to X with the property that if any $At = x circ y$ for some $x$ and $y$ in $X$, then one of $x$ or $y$ is $At$ and the other is $e$. Similarly for any $Bt = x circ y$ for some $x$ and $y$ in $X$.



      If $n$ is such that for all other $D_1 circ D_2 circ ldots circ D_m = C$, where $D$'s belong to $X$ and $Dt = x circ y$ implies one of $x$ or $y$ is $Dt$ and the other is $e$, then $m ge n$, is it true that $A_1= B_1, A_2 = B_2, ldots , A_n = B_n$?










      share|cite|improve this question















      Let $(X,circ,e)$ be a monoid, for set $X$, binary operation $circ$, and identity element $e$.



      Suppose
      $$
      A_1 circ A_2 circ ldots circ A_n
      = B_1 circ B_2 circ ldots circ B_n
      = C,
      $$

      where the A's, B's, and C belong to X with the property that if any $At = x circ y$ for some $x$ and $y$ in $X$, then one of $x$ or $y$ is $At$ and the other is $e$. Similarly for any $Bt = x circ y$ for some $x$ and $y$ in $X$.



      If $n$ is such that for all other $D_1 circ D_2 circ ldots circ D_m = C$, where $D$'s belong to $X$ and $Dt = x circ y$ implies one of $x$ or $y$ is $Dt$ and the other is $e$, then $m ge n$, is it true that $A_1= B_1, A_2 = B_2, ldots , A_n = B_n$?







      abstract-algebra monoid






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      edited Nov 17 at 18:13









      Scientifica

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      asked Nov 17 at 4:32









      Akt

      367




      367






















          1 Answer
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          For ease of discussion, call an element $a in X$ an atom if, for all $x, y in X$, $a = x circ y$ implies $x = e$ or $y = e$.



          If I understand the question correctly, it is asking if, for any monoid $X$, and any positive integer $n$: if an element $C in X$ cannot be expressed as a product $D_1 circ D_2 circ ldots circ D_m$ of $m < n$ atoms in $X$, but $C$ can be expressed as a product of $n$ atoms $A_1 circ A_2 circ ldots circ A_n$ in $X$, then the latter expression is unique.



          There are several problems with this. I'll try to tease them out one by one.



          The first problem is that $e$ might itself be an atom (this is so, for example, in the monoid of strings over an alphabet), but it is not clear whether you actually mean to include this case. (I won't speculate.)



          The second problem is that if $X$ is commutative, and has at least two distinct atoms (for example, $X$ might be the monoid of positive integers under multiplication, when the atoms would be the primes, and possibly also $1$), and if $C$ is a product of two distinct atoms, neither of which is $e$ (for example, if $C = 6$), then the proposition would fail for $n = 2$.



          It seems obvious that you meant to exclude that case. But it is not obvious (at least not to me) how you meant to exclude it. Perhaps you require $X$ to be a free monoid? Then I think the proposition would be true for all $n$ (and it wouldn't matter whether $e$ was counted as an atom or not). But that would be a very strong requirement, and it would certainly need to be made explicit. Also, in that case, the proposition is virtually trivial.



          Finally, I think this is the multiplication table of a monoid in
          which (i) $a$ and $b$ are atoms, (ii) $ab ne ba$, (iii) $d$ is not
          an atom, and (iv) $a^2 = ab = d$; so it is a counterexample for
          $n = 2$, in which commutativity is not to blame for the failure of
          the proposition (in the table, $x circ y$ is in row $x$, column $y$):
          $$
          begin{array}{c|ccccc}
          circ & e & a & b & c & d \
          hline
          e & e & a & b & c & d \
          a & a & d & d & d & d \
          b & b & c & d & d & d \
          c & c & d & d & d & d \
          d & d & d & d & d & d
          end{array}
          $$

          Proof. There are $5^3 = 125$ equations of the form
          $(uv)w = u(vw)$, where $u, v, w in {e, a, b, c, d}$. If any of
          $u, v, w$ is equal to $e$ (the identity element), then the equation
          is true. We are left with the $4^3 = 64$ equations with
          $u, v, w in {a, b, c, d}$. Then $uv, vw in {c, d}$,
          so $(uv)w $ and $u(vw)$ are both equal to $d$, and the equation holds
          again. Therefore $circ$ is an associative operation, with identity
          element $e$. $square$






          share|cite|improve this answer





















          • @Calumet Gilhooley: How does the proposition fail for C = 6 in the positive integers under multiplication? Where n = 2 in this case, 6 = 2 × 3, both 2 and 3 being atoms, is unique and so the proposition seems to hold.
            – Akt
            Nov 18 at 2:14












          • Let $A_1 = B_2 = 2$, and $A_2 = B_1 = 3$. Then $A_1 times A_2 = C = B_1 times B_2$, yet $A_1 ne B_1$ and $A_2 ne B_2$.
            – Calum Gilhooley
            Nov 18 at 2:26










          • If you modify the toy counterexample at the end by setting $ba = d$ instead of $ba = c$ (there is then no need for the element $c$, and it can be dropped for simplicity), $X$ becomes commutative, but conditions (i)-(iv) still hold, falsifying even the weakened proposition in which the factors may be reordered.
            – Calum Gilhooley
            Nov 18 at 2:58












          • Ah, I see. Thank you. So what kind of requirements must be placed on a commutative monoid for the "smallest" expansion of an element C into atoms to be unique, up to reordering of the atoms, sufficed such an expansion exists?
            – Akt
            Nov 18 at 3:01












          • I doubt if there is any simple and general answer to that question. But it's well past my bedtime, and my knowledge of algebraic number theory is hazy at the best of times; so I won't go into details about monoids of equivalence classes of algebraic integers (up to multiplication by units), because I'd be bound to mess it up (probably in several ways at once); but I suspect that such examples could be used to support my vague assertion at the start of this rambling and apparently interminable comment ... Zzzzzz .... :)
            – Calum Gilhooley
            Nov 18 at 3:15











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          up vote
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          down vote



          accepted










          For ease of discussion, call an element $a in X$ an atom if, for all $x, y in X$, $a = x circ y$ implies $x = e$ or $y = e$.



          If I understand the question correctly, it is asking if, for any monoid $X$, and any positive integer $n$: if an element $C in X$ cannot be expressed as a product $D_1 circ D_2 circ ldots circ D_m$ of $m < n$ atoms in $X$, but $C$ can be expressed as a product of $n$ atoms $A_1 circ A_2 circ ldots circ A_n$ in $X$, then the latter expression is unique.



          There are several problems with this. I'll try to tease them out one by one.



          The first problem is that $e$ might itself be an atom (this is so, for example, in the monoid of strings over an alphabet), but it is not clear whether you actually mean to include this case. (I won't speculate.)



          The second problem is that if $X$ is commutative, and has at least two distinct atoms (for example, $X$ might be the monoid of positive integers under multiplication, when the atoms would be the primes, and possibly also $1$), and if $C$ is a product of two distinct atoms, neither of which is $e$ (for example, if $C = 6$), then the proposition would fail for $n = 2$.



          It seems obvious that you meant to exclude that case. But it is not obvious (at least not to me) how you meant to exclude it. Perhaps you require $X$ to be a free monoid? Then I think the proposition would be true for all $n$ (and it wouldn't matter whether $e$ was counted as an atom or not). But that would be a very strong requirement, and it would certainly need to be made explicit. Also, in that case, the proposition is virtually trivial.



          Finally, I think this is the multiplication table of a monoid in
          which (i) $a$ and $b$ are atoms, (ii) $ab ne ba$, (iii) $d$ is not
          an atom, and (iv) $a^2 = ab = d$; so it is a counterexample for
          $n = 2$, in which commutativity is not to blame for the failure of
          the proposition (in the table, $x circ y$ is in row $x$, column $y$):
          $$
          begin{array}{c|ccccc}
          circ & e & a & b & c & d \
          hline
          e & e & a & b & c & d \
          a & a & d & d & d & d \
          b & b & c & d & d & d \
          c & c & d & d & d & d \
          d & d & d & d & d & d
          end{array}
          $$

          Proof. There are $5^3 = 125$ equations of the form
          $(uv)w = u(vw)$, where $u, v, w in {e, a, b, c, d}$. If any of
          $u, v, w$ is equal to $e$ (the identity element), then the equation
          is true. We are left with the $4^3 = 64$ equations with
          $u, v, w in {a, b, c, d}$. Then $uv, vw in {c, d}$,
          so $(uv)w $ and $u(vw)$ are both equal to $d$, and the equation holds
          again. Therefore $circ$ is an associative operation, with identity
          element $e$. $square$






          share|cite|improve this answer





















          • @Calumet Gilhooley: How does the proposition fail for C = 6 in the positive integers under multiplication? Where n = 2 in this case, 6 = 2 × 3, both 2 and 3 being atoms, is unique and so the proposition seems to hold.
            – Akt
            Nov 18 at 2:14












          • Let $A_1 = B_2 = 2$, and $A_2 = B_1 = 3$. Then $A_1 times A_2 = C = B_1 times B_2$, yet $A_1 ne B_1$ and $A_2 ne B_2$.
            – Calum Gilhooley
            Nov 18 at 2:26










          • If you modify the toy counterexample at the end by setting $ba = d$ instead of $ba = c$ (there is then no need for the element $c$, and it can be dropped for simplicity), $X$ becomes commutative, but conditions (i)-(iv) still hold, falsifying even the weakened proposition in which the factors may be reordered.
            – Calum Gilhooley
            Nov 18 at 2:58












          • Ah, I see. Thank you. So what kind of requirements must be placed on a commutative monoid for the "smallest" expansion of an element C into atoms to be unique, up to reordering of the atoms, sufficed such an expansion exists?
            – Akt
            Nov 18 at 3:01












          • I doubt if there is any simple and general answer to that question. But it's well past my bedtime, and my knowledge of algebraic number theory is hazy at the best of times; so I won't go into details about monoids of equivalence classes of algebraic integers (up to multiplication by units), because I'd be bound to mess it up (probably in several ways at once); but I suspect that such examples could be used to support my vague assertion at the start of this rambling and apparently interminable comment ... Zzzzzz .... :)
            – Calum Gilhooley
            Nov 18 at 3:15















          up vote
          1
          down vote



          accepted










          For ease of discussion, call an element $a in X$ an atom if, for all $x, y in X$, $a = x circ y$ implies $x = e$ or $y = e$.



          If I understand the question correctly, it is asking if, for any monoid $X$, and any positive integer $n$: if an element $C in X$ cannot be expressed as a product $D_1 circ D_2 circ ldots circ D_m$ of $m < n$ atoms in $X$, but $C$ can be expressed as a product of $n$ atoms $A_1 circ A_2 circ ldots circ A_n$ in $X$, then the latter expression is unique.



          There are several problems with this. I'll try to tease them out one by one.



          The first problem is that $e$ might itself be an atom (this is so, for example, in the monoid of strings over an alphabet), but it is not clear whether you actually mean to include this case. (I won't speculate.)



          The second problem is that if $X$ is commutative, and has at least two distinct atoms (for example, $X$ might be the monoid of positive integers under multiplication, when the atoms would be the primes, and possibly also $1$), and if $C$ is a product of two distinct atoms, neither of which is $e$ (for example, if $C = 6$), then the proposition would fail for $n = 2$.



          It seems obvious that you meant to exclude that case. But it is not obvious (at least not to me) how you meant to exclude it. Perhaps you require $X$ to be a free monoid? Then I think the proposition would be true for all $n$ (and it wouldn't matter whether $e$ was counted as an atom or not). But that would be a very strong requirement, and it would certainly need to be made explicit. Also, in that case, the proposition is virtually trivial.



          Finally, I think this is the multiplication table of a monoid in
          which (i) $a$ and $b$ are atoms, (ii) $ab ne ba$, (iii) $d$ is not
          an atom, and (iv) $a^2 = ab = d$; so it is a counterexample for
          $n = 2$, in which commutativity is not to blame for the failure of
          the proposition (in the table, $x circ y$ is in row $x$, column $y$):
          $$
          begin{array}{c|ccccc}
          circ & e & a & b & c & d \
          hline
          e & e & a & b & c & d \
          a & a & d & d & d & d \
          b & b & c & d & d & d \
          c & c & d & d & d & d \
          d & d & d & d & d & d
          end{array}
          $$

          Proof. There are $5^3 = 125$ equations of the form
          $(uv)w = u(vw)$, where $u, v, w in {e, a, b, c, d}$. If any of
          $u, v, w$ is equal to $e$ (the identity element), then the equation
          is true. We are left with the $4^3 = 64$ equations with
          $u, v, w in {a, b, c, d}$. Then $uv, vw in {c, d}$,
          so $(uv)w $ and $u(vw)$ are both equal to $d$, and the equation holds
          again. Therefore $circ$ is an associative operation, with identity
          element $e$. $square$






          share|cite|improve this answer





















          • @Calumet Gilhooley: How does the proposition fail for C = 6 in the positive integers under multiplication? Where n = 2 in this case, 6 = 2 × 3, both 2 and 3 being atoms, is unique and so the proposition seems to hold.
            – Akt
            Nov 18 at 2:14












          • Let $A_1 = B_2 = 2$, and $A_2 = B_1 = 3$. Then $A_1 times A_2 = C = B_1 times B_2$, yet $A_1 ne B_1$ and $A_2 ne B_2$.
            – Calum Gilhooley
            Nov 18 at 2:26










          • If you modify the toy counterexample at the end by setting $ba = d$ instead of $ba = c$ (there is then no need for the element $c$, and it can be dropped for simplicity), $X$ becomes commutative, but conditions (i)-(iv) still hold, falsifying even the weakened proposition in which the factors may be reordered.
            – Calum Gilhooley
            Nov 18 at 2:58












          • Ah, I see. Thank you. So what kind of requirements must be placed on a commutative monoid for the "smallest" expansion of an element C into atoms to be unique, up to reordering of the atoms, sufficed such an expansion exists?
            – Akt
            Nov 18 at 3:01












          • I doubt if there is any simple and general answer to that question. But it's well past my bedtime, and my knowledge of algebraic number theory is hazy at the best of times; so I won't go into details about monoids of equivalence classes of algebraic integers (up to multiplication by units), because I'd be bound to mess it up (probably in several ways at once); but I suspect that such examples could be used to support my vague assertion at the start of this rambling and apparently interminable comment ... Zzzzzz .... :)
            – Calum Gilhooley
            Nov 18 at 3:15













          up vote
          1
          down vote



          accepted







          up vote
          1
          down vote



          accepted






          For ease of discussion, call an element $a in X$ an atom if, for all $x, y in X$, $a = x circ y$ implies $x = e$ or $y = e$.



          If I understand the question correctly, it is asking if, for any monoid $X$, and any positive integer $n$: if an element $C in X$ cannot be expressed as a product $D_1 circ D_2 circ ldots circ D_m$ of $m < n$ atoms in $X$, but $C$ can be expressed as a product of $n$ atoms $A_1 circ A_2 circ ldots circ A_n$ in $X$, then the latter expression is unique.



          There are several problems with this. I'll try to tease them out one by one.



          The first problem is that $e$ might itself be an atom (this is so, for example, in the monoid of strings over an alphabet), but it is not clear whether you actually mean to include this case. (I won't speculate.)



          The second problem is that if $X$ is commutative, and has at least two distinct atoms (for example, $X$ might be the monoid of positive integers under multiplication, when the atoms would be the primes, and possibly also $1$), and if $C$ is a product of two distinct atoms, neither of which is $e$ (for example, if $C = 6$), then the proposition would fail for $n = 2$.



          It seems obvious that you meant to exclude that case. But it is not obvious (at least not to me) how you meant to exclude it. Perhaps you require $X$ to be a free monoid? Then I think the proposition would be true for all $n$ (and it wouldn't matter whether $e$ was counted as an atom or not). But that would be a very strong requirement, and it would certainly need to be made explicit. Also, in that case, the proposition is virtually trivial.



          Finally, I think this is the multiplication table of a monoid in
          which (i) $a$ and $b$ are atoms, (ii) $ab ne ba$, (iii) $d$ is not
          an atom, and (iv) $a^2 = ab = d$; so it is a counterexample for
          $n = 2$, in which commutativity is not to blame for the failure of
          the proposition (in the table, $x circ y$ is in row $x$, column $y$):
          $$
          begin{array}{c|ccccc}
          circ & e & a & b & c & d \
          hline
          e & e & a & b & c & d \
          a & a & d & d & d & d \
          b & b & c & d & d & d \
          c & c & d & d & d & d \
          d & d & d & d & d & d
          end{array}
          $$

          Proof. There are $5^3 = 125$ equations of the form
          $(uv)w = u(vw)$, where $u, v, w in {e, a, b, c, d}$. If any of
          $u, v, w$ is equal to $e$ (the identity element), then the equation
          is true. We are left with the $4^3 = 64$ equations with
          $u, v, w in {a, b, c, d}$. Then $uv, vw in {c, d}$,
          so $(uv)w $ and $u(vw)$ are both equal to $d$, and the equation holds
          again. Therefore $circ$ is an associative operation, with identity
          element $e$. $square$






          share|cite|improve this answer












          For ease of discussion, call an element $a in X$ an atom if, for all $x, y in X$, $a = x circ y$ implies $x = e$ or $y = e$.



          If I understand the question correctly, it is asking if, for any monoid $X$, and any positive integer $n$: if an element $C in X$ cannot be expressed as a product $D_1 circ D_2 circ ldots circ D_m$ of $m < n$ atoms in $X$, but $C$ can be expressed as a product of $n$ atoms $A_1 circ A_2 circ ldots circ A_n$ in $X$, then the latter expression is unique.



          There are several problems with this. I'll try to tease them out one by one.



          The first problem is that $e$ might itself be an atom (this is so, for example, in the monoid of strings over an alphabet), but it is not clear whether you actually mean to include this case. (I won't speculate.)



          The second problem is that if $X$ is commutative, and has at least two distinct atoms (for example, $X$ might be the monoid of positive integers under multiplication, when the atoms would be the primes, and possibly also $1$), and if $C$ is a product of two distinct atoms, neither of which is $e$ (for example, if $C = 6$), then the proposition would fail for $n = 2$.



          It seems obvious that you meant to exclude that case. But it is not obvious (at least not to me) how you meant to exclude it. Perhaps you require $X$ to be a free monoid? Then I think the proposition would be true for all $n$ (and it wouldn't matter whether $e$ was counted as an atom or not). But that would be a very strong requirement, and it would certainly need to be made explicit. Also, in that case, the proposition is virtually trivial.



          Finally, I think this is the multiplication table of a monoid in
          which (i) $a$ and $b$ are atoms, (ii) $ab ne ba$, (iii) $d$ is not
          an atom, and (iv) $a^2 = ab = d$; so it is a counterexample for
          $n = 2$, in which commutativity is not to blame for the failure of
          the proposition (in the table, $x circ y$ is in row $x$, column $y$):
          $$
          begin{array}{c|ccccc}
          circ & e & a & b & c & d \
          hline
          e & e & a & b & c & d \
          a & a & d & d & d & d \
          b & b & c & d & d & d \
          c & c & d & d & d & d \
          d & d & d & d & d & d
          end{array}
          $$

          Proof. There are $5^3 = 125$ equations of the form
          $(uv)w = u(vw)$, where $u, v, w in {e, a, b, c, d}$. If any of
          $u, v, w$ is equal to $e$ (the identity element), then the equation
          is true. We are left with the $4^3 = 64$ equations with
          $u, v, w in {a, b, c, d}$. Then $uv, vw in {c, d}$,
          so $(uv)w $ and $u(vw)$ are both equal to $d$, and the equation holds
          again. Therefore $circ$ is an associative operation, with identity
          element $e$. $square$







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered Nov 17 at 23:42









          Calum Gilhooley

          4,052529




          4,052529












          • @Calumet Gilhooley: How does the proposition fail for C = 6 in the positive integers under multiplication? Where n = 2 in this case, 6 = 2 × 3, both 2 and 3 being atoms, is unique and so the proposition seems to hold.
            – Akt
            Nov 18 at 2:14












          • Let $A_1 = B_2 = 2$, and $A_2 = B_1 = 3$. Then $A_1 times A_2 = C = B_1 times B_2$, yet $A_1 ne B_1$ and $A_2 ne B_2$.
            – Calum Gilhooley
            Nov 18 at 2:26










          • If you modify the toy counterexample at the end by setting $ba = d$ instead of $ba = c$ (there is then no need for the element $c$, and it can be dropped for simplicity), $X$ becomes commutative, but conditions (i)-(iv) still hold, falsifying even the weakened proposition in which the factors may be reordered.
            – Calum Gilhooley
            Nov 18 at 2:58












          • Ah, I see. Thank you. So what kind of requirements must be placed on a commutative monoid for the "smallest" expansion of an element C into atoms to be unique, up to reordering of the atoms, sufficed such an expansion exists?
            – Akt
            Nov 18 at 3:01












          • I doubt if there is any simple and general answer to that question. But it's well past my bedtime, and my knowledge of algebraic number theory is hazy at the best of times; so I won't go into details about monoids of equivalence classes of algebraic integers (up to multiplication by units), because I'd be bound to mess it up (probably in several ways at once); but I suspect that such examples could be used to support my vague assertion at the start of this rambling and apparently interminable comment ... Zzzzzz .... :)
            – Calum Gilhooley
            Nov 18 at 3:15


















          • @Calumet Gilhooley: How does the proposition fail for C = 6 in the positive integers under multiplication? Where n = 2 in this case, 6 = 2 × 3, both 2 and 3 being atoms, is unique and so the proposition seems to hold.
            – Akt
            Nov 18 at 2:14












          • Let $A_1 = B_2 = 2$, and $A_2 = B_1 = 3$. Then $A_1 times A_2 = C = B_1 times B_2$, yet $A_1 ne B_1$ and $A_2 ne B_2$.
            – Calum Gilhooley
            Nov 18 at 2:26










          • If you modify the toy counterexample at the end by setting $ba = d$ instead of $ba = c$ (there is then no need for the element $c$, and it can be dropped for simplicity), $X$ becomes commutative, but conditions (i)-(iv) still hold, falsifying even the weakened proposition in which the factors may be reordered.
            – Calum Gilhooley
            Nov 18 at 2:58












          • Ah, I see. Thank you. So what kind of requirements must be placed on a commutative monoid for the "smallest" expansion of an element C into atoms to be unique, up to reordering of the atoms, sufficed such an expansion exists?
            – Akt
            Nov 18 at 3:01












          • I doubt if there is any simple and general answer to that question. But it's well past my bedtime, and my knowledge of algebraic number theory is hazy at the best of times; so I won't go into details about monoids of equivalence classes of algebraic integers (up to multiplication by units), because I'd be bound to mess it up (probably in several ways at once); but I suspect that such examples could be used to support my vague assertion at the start of this rambling and apparently interminable comment ... Zzzzzz .... :)
            – Calum Gilhooley
            Nov 18 at 3:15
















          @Calumet Gilhooley: How does the proposition fail for C = 6 in the positive integers under multiplication? Where n = 2 in this case, 6 = 2 × 3, both 2 and 3 being atoms, is unique and so the proposition seems to hold.
          – Akt
          Nov 18 at 2:14






          @Calumet Gilhooley: How does the proposition fail for C = 6 in the positive integers under multiplication? Where n = 2 in this case, 6 = 2 × 3, both 2 and 3 being atoms, is unique and so the proposition seems to hold.
          – Akt
          Nov 18 at 2:14














          Let $A_1 = B_2 = 2$, and $A_2 = B_1 = 3$. Then $A_1 times A_2 = C = B_1 times B_2$, yet $A_1 ne B_1$ and $A_2 ne B_2$.
          – Calum Gilhooley
          Nov 18 at 2:26




          Let $A_1 = B_2 = 2$, and $A_2 = B_1 = 3$. Then $A_1 times A_2 = C = B_1 times B_2$, yet $A_1 ne B_1$ and $A_2 ne B_2$.
          – Calum Gilhooley
          Nov 18 at 2:26












          If you modify the toy counterexample at the end by setting $ba = d$ instead of $ba = c$ (there is then no need for the element $c$, and it can be dropped for simplicity), $X$ becomes commutative, but conditions (i)-(iv) still hold, falsifying even the weakened proposition in which the factors may be reordered.
          – Calum Gilhooley
          Nov 18 at 2:58






          If you modify the toy counterexample at the end by setting $ba = d$ instead of $ba = c$ (there is then no need for the element $c$, and it can be dropped for simplicity), $X$ becomes commutative, but conditions (i)-(iv) still hold, falsifying even the weakened proposition in which the factors may be reordered.
          – Calum Gilhooley
          Nov 18 at 2:58














          Ah, I see. Thank you. So what kind of requirements must be placed on a commutative monoid for the "smallest" expansion of an element C into atoms to be unique, up to reordering of the atoms, sufficed such an expansion exists?
          – Akt
          Nov 18 at 3:01






          Ah, I see. Thank you. So what kind of requirements must be placed on a commutative monoid for the "smallest" expansion of an element C into atoms to be unique, up to reordering of the atoms, sufficed such an expansion exists?
          – Akt
          Nov 18 at 3:01














          I doubt if there is any simple and general answer to that question. But it's well past my bedtime, and my knowledge of algebraic number theory is hazy at the best of times; so I won't go into details about monoids of equivalence classes of algebraic integers (up to multiplication by units), because I'd be bound to mess it up (probably in several ways at once); but I suspect that such examples could be used to support my vague assertion at the start of this rambling and apparently interminable comment ... Zzzzzz .... :)
          – Calum Gilhooley
          Nov 18 at 3:15




          I doubt if there is any simple and general answer to that question. But it's well past my bedtime, and my knowledge of algebraic number theory is hazy at the best of times; so I won't go into details about monoids of equivalence classes of algebraic integers (up to multiplication by units), because I'd be bound to mess it up (probably in several ways at once); but I suspect that such examples could be used to support my vague assertion at the start of this rambling and apparently interminable comment ... Zzzzzz .... :)
          – Calum Gilhooley
          Nov 18 at 3:15


















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