When does Myr Superion check the source?












11















Myr Superion is a 2 mana 5/6 that comes with the following casting restriction:




Spend only mana produced by creatures to cast Myr Superion.




Under most circumstances this wouldn't be ambiguous, but I'm not sure how it interacts with type-changing effects. Specifically, I want to know whether Myr Superion could be cast with mana produced in the following ways:





  • Blinkmoth Nexus is tapped for mana, then animated using some other mana.


  • Palladium Myr is tapped for mana, then stops being a creature e.g. due to Song of the Dryads.


  • Deathrite Shaman is tapped to activate its first ability, which goes on the stack because it is not a mana ability, and then stops being a creature before that ability resolves.


I wasn't able to find any lands which could produce mana using an ability that is not a mana ability, but I suspect I will be able to deduce that hypothetical outcome based on the others listed.



In other words, when casting Myr Superion does a mana source need to be a creature when the ability was activated, when the ability resolved, or when the Superion is cast?










share|improve this question

























  • This question was discussed here, but nothing that sounds like an official answer.

    – GendoIkari
    Feb 11 at 21:04













  • @DarkCygnus Why did you replace Inkmoth Nexus with Blinkmoth Nexus? Both are lands that tap for mana and animate themselves.

    – murgatroid99
    Feb 11 at 23:30











  • I merely "corrected" the broken link, the first wording appeared broken to me and no card seemed to have that name

    – DarkCygnus
    Feb 11 at 23:31













  • Huh. Inkmoth Nexus is a real card, but the link that is getting generated doesn't work, so I guess we might as well keep the change.

    – murgatroid99
    Feb 12 at 1:53
















11















Myr Superion is a 2 mana 5/6 that comes with the following casting restriction:




Spend only mana produced by creatures to cast Myr Superion.




Under most circumstances this wouldn't be ambiguous, but I'm not sure how it interacts with type-changing effects. Specifically, I want to know whether Myr Superion could be cast with mana produced in the following ways:





  • Blinkmoth Nexus is tapped for mana, then animated using some other mana.


  • Palladium Myr is tapped for mana, then stops being a creature e.g. due to Song of the Dryads.


  • Deathrite Shaman is tapped to activate its first ability, which goes on the stack because it is not a mana ability, and then stops being a creature before that ability resolves.


I wasn't able to find any lands which could produce mana using an ability that is not a mana ability, but I suspect I will be able to deduce that hypothetical outcome based on the others listed.



In other words, when casting Myr Superion does a mana source need to be a creature when the ability was activated, when the ability resolved, or when the Superion is cast?










share|improve this question

























  • This question was discussed here, but nothing that sounds like an official answer.

    – GendoIkari
    Feb 11 at 21:04













  • @DarkCygnus Why did you replace Inkmoth Nexus with Blinkmoth Nexus? Both are lands that tap for mana and animate themselves.

    – murgatroid99
    Feb 11 at 23:30











  • I merely "corrected" the broken link, the first wording appeared broken to me and no card seemed to have that name

    – DarkCygnus
    Feb 11 at 23:31













  • Huh. Inkmoth Nexus is a real card, but the link that is getting generated doesn't work, so I guess we might as well keep the change.

    – murgatroid99
    Feb 12 at 1:53














11












11








11








Myr Superion is a 2 mana 5/6 that comes with the following casting restriction:




Spend only mana produced by creatures to cast Myr Superion.




Under most circumstances this wouldn't be ambiguous, but I'm not sure how it interacts with type-changing effects. Specifically, I want to know whether Myr Superion could be cast with mana produced in the following ways:





  • Blinkmoth Nexus is tapped for mana, then animated using some other mana.


  • Palladium Myr is tapped for mana, then stops being a creature e.g. due to Song of the Dryads.


  • Deathrite Shaman is tapped to activate its first ability, which goes on the stack because it is not a mana ability, and then stops being a creature before that ability resolves.


I wasn't able to find any lands which could produce mana using an ability that is not a mana ability, but I suspect I will be able to deduce that hypothetical outcome based on the others listed.



In other words, when casting Myr Superion does a mana source need to be a creature when the ability was activated, when the ability resolved, or when the Superion is cast?










share|improve this question
















Myr Superion is a 2 mana 5/6 that comes with the following casting restriction:




Spend only mana produced by creatures to cast Myr Superion.




Under most circumstances this wouldn't be ambiguous, but I'm not sure how it interacts with type-changing effects. Specifically, I want to know whether Myr Superion could be cast with mana produced in the following ways:





  • Blinkmoth Nexus is tapped for mana, then animated using some other mana.


  • Palladium Myr is tapped for mana, then stops being a creature e.g. due to Song of the Dryads.


  • Deathrite Shaman is tapped to activate its first ability, which goes on the stack because it is not a mana ability, and then stops being a creature before that ability resolves.


I wasn't able to find any lands which could produce mana using an ability that is not a mana ability, but I suspect I will be able to deduce that hypothetical outcome based on the others listed.



In other words, when casting Myr Superion does a mana source need to be a creature when the ability was activated, when the ability resolved, or when the Superion is cast?







magic-the-gathering






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Feb 11 at 23:01









DarkCygnus

2,0831222




2,0831222










asked Feb 11 at 20:06









Kamil DrakariKamil Drakari

786217




786217













  • This question was discussed here, but nothing that sounds like an official answer.

    – GendoIkari
    Feb 11 at 21:04













  • @DarkCygnus Why did you replace Inkmoth Nexus with Blinkmoth Nexus? Both are lands that tap for mana and animate themselves.

    – murgatroid99
    Feb 11 at 23:30











  • I merely "corrected" the broken link, the first wording appeared broken to me and no card seemed to have that name

    – DarkCygnus
    Feb 11 at 23:31













  • Huh. Inkmoth Nexus is a real card, but the link that is getting generated doesn't work, so I guess we might as well keep the change.

    – murgatroid99
    Feb 12 at 1:53



















  • This question was discussed here, but nothing that sounds like an official answer.

    – GendoIkari
    Feb 11 at 21:04













  • @DarkCygnus Why did you replace Inkmoth Nexus with Blinkmoth Nexus? Both are lands that tap for mana and animate themselves.

    – murgatroid99
    Feb 11 at 23:30











  • I merely "corrected" the broken link, the first wording appeared broken to me and no card seemed to have that name

    – DarkCygnus
    Feb 11 at 23:31













  • Huh. Inkmoth Nexus is a real card, but the link that is getting generated doesn't work, so I guess we might as well keep the change.

    – murgatroid99
    Feb 12 at 1:53

















This question was discussed here, but nothing that sounds like an official answer.

– GendoIkari
Feb 11 at 21:04







This question was discussed here, but nothing that sounds like an official answer.

– GendoIkari
Feb 11 at 21:04















@DarkCygnus Why did you replace Inkmoth Nexus with Blinkmoth Nexus? Both are lands that tap for mana and animate themselves.

– murgatroid99
Feb 11 at 23:30





@DarkCygnus Why did you replace Inkmoth Nexus with Blinkmoth Nexus? Both are lands that tap for mana and animate themselves.

– murgatroid99
Feb 11 at 23:30













I merely "corrected" the broken link, the first wording appeared broken to me and no card seemed to have that name

– DarkCygnus
Feb 11 at 23:31







I merely "corrected" the broken link, the first wording appeared broken to me and no card seemed to have that name

– DarkCygnus
Feb 11 at 23:31















Huh. Inkmoth Nexus is a real card, but the link that is getting generated doesn't work, so I guess we might as well keep the change.

– murgatroid99
Feb 12 at 1:53





Huh. Inkmoth Nexus is a real card, but the link that is getting generated doesn't work, so I guess we might as well keep the change.

– murgatroid99
Feb 12 at 1:53










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















9














The ability checks what produced the mana. This means that, to be used to cast Myr Superion, the source of the ability that produced the mana must have been a creature at the time the mana was produced (i.e. when the ability resolved).



As @Natedogg2 of #magicjudges-rules said, "Producing the mana, then making the source into a creature does not count."






share|improve this answer


























  • So, in the case of Deathrite Shaman activating its first ability, then stops being a creature while the ability is on the stack, the mana would not be usable? That's interesting, and not what I would have guessed. The more you know, I suppose

    – Belgabad
    Feb 11 at 21:26








  • 4





    @Belgabad, If the Shaman simply ceased to exist (e.g. because it was destroyed) before the mana was created, then the mana would be considered created by a creature (because of LKI). If the Shaman still exists but lost the creature type before the mana was created, then the mana would be considered created by a non-creature.

    – ikegami
    Feb 11 at 21:28





















5














Yes, the mana source would need to be a creature on the battlefield when the mana was created. Mana is not tied to the object that created it, but has some characteristics based on that object when the mana was created, just most things in magic, the source stops mattering once the effect goes on stack and/or resolves.



Myr Superion does not check the source of the mana in the way you're thinking, but looks for the characteristics of that mana, and the mana "remembers" it's characteristics until it is spent or it empties from the pool, we know this because mana with conditions that is prevented from emptying from the pool by effects like Omnath, Locus of Mana or Kruphix, God of Horizons still keeps any restrictions or other characteristics from turn to turn, even after modified by Kruphix's ability, as seen in the ruling on Kruphix:




If unused mana in your mana pool has any restrictions or riders associated with it (for example, if it was produced by Cavern of Souls), those restrictions or riders will remain associated with that mana when it becomes colorless.







share|improve this answer


























  • Do you have a source for this? I think the answer is the opposite, but I can't find anything conclusive either way.

    – murgatroid99
    Feb 11 at 20:32






  • 1





    @murgatroid99, I'm inclined to agree with Andrew's conclusion. The ability checks how it was produced.

    – ikegami
    Feb 11 at 20:38








  • 1





    @KamilDrakari That would only care when the ability was put on the stack, not when it resolved I would say, when abilities go onto the stack, unless they specify otherwise they are no longer connected directly to what put the ability on stack (exceptions like fight).

    – Andrew
    Feb 11 at 20:39






  • 1





    Re "That would only care when the ability was put on the stack", Ok, that makes absolutely no sense to me. The mana is only created resolution. It shouldn't matter what the source of the ability was when the ability was activated.

    – ikegami
    Feb 11 at 20:40








  • 1





    I have sent a question to the "Ask a Magic Judge" tumblr blog. We'll see if we get a response.

    – murgatroid99
    Feb 11 at 20:55











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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









9














The ability checks what produced the mana. This means that, to be used to cast Myr Superion, the source of the ability that produced the mana must have been a creature at the time the mana was produced (i.e. when the ability resolved).



As @Natedogg2 of #magicjudges-rules said, "Producing the mana, then making the source into a creature does not count."






share|improve this answer


























  • So, in the case of Deathrite Shaman activating its first ability, then stops being a creature while the ability is on the stack, the mana would not be usable? That's interesting, and not what I would have guessed. The more you know, I suppose

    – Belgabad
    Feb 11 at 21:26








  • 4





    @Belgabad, If the Shaman simply ceased to exist (e.g. because it was destroyed) before the mana was created, then the mana would be considered created by a creature (because of LKI). If the Shaman still exists but lost the creature type before the mana was created, then the mana would be considered created by a non-creature.

    – ikegami
    Feb 11 at 21:28


















9














The ability checks what produced the mana. This means that, to be used to cast Myr Superion, the source of the ability that produced the mana must have been a creature at the time the mana was produced (i.e. when the ability resolved).



As @Natedogg2 of #magicjudges-rules said, "Producing the mana, then making the source into a creature does not count."






share|improve this answer


























  • So, in the case of Deathrite Shaman activating its first ability, then stops being a creature while the ability is on the stack, the mana would not be usable? That's interesting, and not what I would have guessed. The more you know, I suppose

    – Belgabad
    Feb 11 at 21:26








  • 4





    @Belgabad, If the Shaman simply ceased to exist (e.g. because it was destroyed) before the mana was created, then the mana would be considered created by a creature (because of LKI). If the Shaman still exists but lost the creature type before the mana was created, then the mana would be considered created by a non-creature.

    – ikegami
    Feb 11 at 21:28
















9












9








9







The ability checks what produced the mana. This means that, to be used to cast Myr Superion, the source of the ability that produced the mana must have been a creature at the time the mana was produced (i.e. when the ability resolved).



As @Natedogg2 of #magicjudges-rules said, "Producing the mana, then making the source into a creature does not count."






share|improve this answer















The ability checks what produced the mana. This means that, to be used to cast Myr Superion, the source of the ability that produced the mana must have been a creature at the time the mana was produced (i.e. when the ability resolved).



As @Natedogg2 of #magicjudges-rules said, "Producing the mana, then making the source into a creature does not count."







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited Feb 11 at 21:30

























answered Feb 11 at 21:04









ikegamiikegami

40.1k365137




40.1k365137













  • So, in the case of Deathrite Shaman activating its first ability, then stops being a creature while the ability is on the stack, the mana would not be usable? That's interesting, and not what I would have guessed. The more you know, I suppose

    – Belgabad
    Feb 11 at 21:26








  • 4





    @Belgabad, If the Shaman simply ceased to exist (e.g. because it was destroyed) before the mana was created, then the mana would be considered created by a creature (because of LKI). If the Shaman still exists but lost the creature type before the mana was created, then the mana would be considered created by a non-creature.

    – ikegami
    Feb 11 at 21:28





















  • So, in the case of Deathrite Shaman activating its first ability, then stops being a creature while the ability is on the stack, the mana would not be usable? That's interesting, and not what I would have guessed. The more you know, I suppose

    – Belgabad
    Feb 11 at 21:26








  • 4





    @Belgabad, If the Shaman simply ceased to exist (e.g. because it was destroyed) before the mana was created, then the mana would be considered created by a creature (because of LKI). If the Shaman still exists but lost the creature type before the mana was created, then the mana would be considered created by a non-creature.

    – ikegami
    Feb 11 at 21:28



















So, in the case of Deathrite Shaman activating its first ability, then stops being a creature while the ability is on the stack, the mana would not be usable? That's interesting, and not what I would have guessed. The more you know, I suppose

– Belgabad
Feb 11 at 21:26







So, in the case of Deathrite Shaman activating its first ability, then stops being a creature while the ability is on the stack, the mana would not be usable? That's interesting, and not what I would have guessed. The more you know, I suppose

– Belgabad
Feb 11 at 21:26






4




4





@Belgabad, If the Shaman simply ceased to exist (e.g. because it was destroyed) before the mana was created, then the mana would be considered created by a creature (because of LKI). If the Shaman still exists but lost the creature type before the mana was created, then the mana would be considered created by a non-creature.

– ikegami
Feb 11 at 21:28







@Belgabad, If the Shaman simply ceased to exist (e.g. because it was destroyed) before the mana was created, then the mana would be considered created by a creature (because of LKI). If the Shaman still exists but lost the creature type before the mana was created, then the mana would be considered created by a non-creature.

– ikegami
Feb 11 at 21:28













5














Yes, the mana source would need to be a creature on the battlefield when the mana was created. Mana is not tied to the object that created it, but has some characteristics based on that object when the mana was created, just most things in magic, the source stops mattering once the effect goes on stack and/or resolves.



Myr Superion does not check the source of the mana in the way you're thinking, but looks for the characteristics of that mana, and the mana "remembers" it's characteristics until it is spent or it empties from the pool, we know this because mana with conditions that is prevented from emptying from the pool by effects like Omnath, Locus of Mana or Kruphix, God of Horizons still keeps any restrictions or other characteristics from turn to turn, even after modified by Kruphix's ability, as seen in the ruling on Kruphix:




If unused mana in your mana pool has any restrictions or riders associated with it (for example, if it was produced by Cavern of Souls), those restrictions or riders will remain associated with that mana when it becomes colorless.







share|improve this answer


























  • Do you have a source for this? I think the answer is the opposite, but I can't find anything conclusive either way.

    – murgatroid99
    Feb 11 at 20:32






  • 1





    @murgatroid99, I'm inclined to agree with Andrew's conclusion. The ability checks how it was produced.

    – ikegami
    Feb 11 at 20:38








  • 1





    @KamilDrakari That would only care when the ability was put on the stack, not when it resolved I would say, when abilities go onto the stack, unless they specify otherwise they are no longer connected directly to what put the ability on stack (exceptions like fight).

    – Andrew
    Feb 11 at 20:39






  • 1





    Re "That would only care when the ability was put on the stack", Ok, that makes absolutely no sense to me. The mana is only created resolution. It shouldn't matter what the source of the ability was when the ability was activated.

    – ikegami
    Feb 11 at 20:40








  • 1





    I have sent a question to the "Ask a Magic Judge" tumblr blog. We'll see if we get a response.

    – murgatroid99
    Feb 11 at 20:55
















5














Yes, the mana source would need to be a creature on the battlefield when the mana was created. Mana is not tied to the object that created it, but has some characteristics based on that object when the mana was created, just most things in magic, the source stops mattering once the effect goes on stack and/or resolves.



Myr Superion does not check the source of the mana in the way you're thinking, but looks for the characteristics of that mana, and the mana "remembers" it's characteristics until it is spent or it empties from the pool, we know this because mana with conditions that is prevented from emptying from the pool by effects like Omnath, Locus of Mana or Kruphix, God of Horizons still keeps any restrictions or other characteristics from turn to turn, even after modified by Kruphix's ability, as seen in the ruling on Kruphix:




If unused mana in your mana pool has any restrictions or riders associated with it (for example, if it was produced by Cavern of Souls), those restrictions or riders will remain associated with that mana when it becomes colorless.







share|improve this answer


























  • Do you have a source for this? I think the answer is the opposite, but I can't find anything conclusive either way.

    – murgatroid99
    Feb 11 at 20:32






  • 1





    @murgatroid99, I'm inclined to agree with Andrew's conclusion. The ability checks how it was produced.

    – ikegami
    Feb 11 at 20:38








  • 1





    @KamilDrakari That would only care when the ability was put on the stack, not when it resolved I would say, when abilities go onto the stack, unless they specify otherwise they are no longer connected directly to what put the ability on stack (exceptions like fight).

    – Andrew
    Feb 11 at 20:39






  • 1





    Re "That would only care when the ability was put on the stack", Ok, that makes absolutely no sense to me. The mana is only created resolution. It shouldn't matter what the source of the ability was when the ability was activated.

    – ikegami
    Feb 11 at 20:40








  • 1





    I have sent a question to the "Ask a Magic Judge" tumblr blog. We'll see if we get a response.

    – murgatroid99
    Feb 11 at 20:55














5












5








5







Yes, the mana source would need to be a creature on the battlefield when the mana was created. Mana is not tied to the object that created it, but has some characteristics based on that object when the mana was created, just most things in magic, the source stops mattering once the effect goes on stack and/or resolves.



Myr Superion does not check the source of the mana in the way you're thinking, but looks for the characteristics of that mana, and the mana "remembers" it's characteristics until it is spent or it empties from the pool, we know this because mana with conditions that is prevented from emptying from the pool by effects like Omnath, Locus of Mana or Kruphix, God of Horizons still keeps any restrictions or other characteristics from turn to turn, even after modified by Kruphix's ability, as seen in the ruling on Kruphix:




If unused mana in your mana pool has any restrictions or riders associated with it (for example, if it was produced by Cavern of Souls), those restrictions or riders will remain associated with that mana when it becomes colorless.







share|improve this answer















Yes, the mana source would need to be a creature on the battlefield when the mana was created. Mana is not tied to the object that created it, but has some characteristics based on that object when the mana was created, just most things in magic, the source stops mattering once the effect goes on stack and/or resolves.



Myr Superion does not check the source of the mana in the way you're thinking, but looks for the characteristics of that mana, and the mana "remembers" it's characteristics until it is spent or it empties from the pool, we know this because mana with conditions that is prevented from emptying from the pool by effects like Omnath, Locus of Mana or Kruphix, God of Horizons still keeps any restrictions or other characteristics from turn to turn, even after modified by Kruphix's ability, as seen in the ruling on Kruphix:




If unused mana in your mana pool has any restrictions or riders associated with it (for example, if it was produced by Cavern of Souls), those restrictions or riders will remain associated with that mana when it becomes colorless.








share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited Feb 11 at 21:19

























answered Feb 11 at 20:28









AndrewAndrew

4,341533




4,341533













  • Do you have a source for this? I think the answer is the opposite, but I can't find anything conclusive either way.

    – murgatroid99
    Feb 11 at 20:32






  • 1





    @murgatroid99, I'm inclined to agree with Andrew's conclusion. The ability checks how it was produced.

    – ikegami
    Feb 11 at 20:38








  • 1





    @KamilDrakari That would only care when the ability was put on the stack, not when it resolved I would say, when abilities go onto the stack, unless they specify otherwise they are no longer connected directly to what put the ability on stack (exceptions like fight).

    – Andrew
    Feb 11 at 20:39






  • 1





    Re "That would only care when the ability was put on the stack", Ok, that makes absolutely no sense to me. The mana is only created resolution. It shouldn't matter what the source of the ability was when the ability was activated.

    – ikegami
    Feb 11 at 20:40








  • 1





    I have sent a question to the "Ask a Magic Judge" tumblr blog. We'll see if we get a response.

    – murgatroid99
    Feb 11 at 20:55



















  • Do you have a source for this? I think the answer is the opposite, but I can't find anything conclusive either way.

    – murgatroid99
    Feb 11 at 20:32






  • 1





    @murgatroid99, I'm inclined to agree with Andrew's conclusion. The ability checks how it was produced.

    – ikegami
    Feb 11 at 20:38








  • 1





    @KamilDrakari That would only care when the ability was put on the stack, not when it resolved I would say, when abilities go onto the stack, unless they specify otherwise they are no longer connected directly to what put the ability on stack (exceptions like fight).

    – Andrew
    Feb 11 at 20:39






  • 1





    Re "That would only care when the ability was put on the stack", Ok, that makes absolutely no sense to me. The mana is only created resolution. It shouldn't matter what the source of the ability was when the ability was activated.

    – ikegami
    Feb 11 at 20:40








  • 1





    I have sent a question to the "Ask a Magic Judge" tumblr blog. We'll see if we get a response.

    – murgatroid99
    Feb 11 at 20:55

















Do you have a source for this? I think the answer is the opposite, but I can't find anything conclusive either way.

– murgatroid99
Feb 11 at 20:32





Do you have a source for this? I think the answer is the opposite, but I can't find anything conclusive either way.

– murgatroid99
Feb 11 at 20:32




1




1





@murgatroid99, I'm inclined to agree with Andrew's conclusion. The ability checks how it was produced.

– ikegami
Feb 11 at 20:38







@murgatroid99, I'm inclined to agree with Andrew's conclusion. The ability checks how it was produced.

– ikegami
Feb 11 at 20:38






1




1





@KamilDrakari That would only care when the ability was put on the stack, not when it resolved I would say, when abilities go onto the stack, unless they specify otherwise they are no longer connected directly to what put the ability on stack (exceptions like fight).

– Andrew
Feb 11 at 20:39





@KamilDrakari That would only care when the ability was put on the stack, not when it resolved I would say, when abilities go onto the stack, unless they specify otherwise they are no longer connected directly to what put the ability on stack (exceptions like fight).

– Andrew
Feb 11 at 20:39




1




1





Re "That would only care when the ability was put on the stack", Ok, that makes absolutely no sense to me. The mana is only created resolution. It shouldn't matter what the source of the ability was when the ability was activated.

– ikegami
Feb 11 at 20:40







Re "That would only care when the ability was put on the stack", Ok, that makes absolutely no sense to me. The mana is only created resolution. It shouldn't matter what the source of the ability was when the ability was activated.

– ikegami
Feb 11 at 20:40






1




1





I have sent a question to the "Ask a Magic Judge" tumblr blog. We'll see if we get a response.

– murgatroid99
Feb 11 at 20:55





I have sent a question to the "Ask a Magic Judge" tumblr blog. We'll see if we get a response.

– murgatroid99
Feb 11 at 20:55


















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