Is there a simpler proof of this fact in analysis?












10












$begingroup$


Suppose that $f:(0,1)tomathbb{R}$ is differentiable, and that $f(x_1)=f(x_2)=0$ and $f’(x_1)>0$ and $f’(x_2)>0$ for some $0 <x_1<x_2<1$. Then there must exist an $x_0in(x_1,x_2)$ such that $f(x_0)=0$ and $f’(x_0)leq0$, as follows:
Let $A={xin(x_1,x_2):f(x)geq0}$, and note that $A$ is nonempty, since the condition $f’(x_1)>0$ guarantees that there exist points that exceed $x_1$ by arbitrarily small amounts, at which $f$ is strictly positive. Also note that $A$ is bounded above, by $x_2$. Therefore, let $x_0=sup A$. Note that $x_0 > x_1$. Since $f’(x_2)>0$, there exist points that $x_2$ exceeds by arbitrarily small positive amounts, at which $f$ is strictly negative. It follows that $x_1 < x_0 < x_2$. By continuity of $f$, we have that $f(x_0)=0$. Since $f(x)<0$ for all $xin(x_0,x_2)$, it follows also that $f’(x_0)leq0$, as required.



Is this proof correct, and is there a simpler proof, perhaps using a ready-made theorem such as the Intermediate Value Theorem ?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Quick thought: by the direction of the derivative there must exist points $f(x_3)>0$ and $f(x_4)<0$. Then apply intermediate value theorem? The derivative is such for at least one point as the function crosses over.
    $endgroup$
    – Dole
    Dec 27 '18 at 21:15












  • $begingroup$
    @RRL, Please check my argument again - in fact I do not appeal to the IVT. Also the reason why $f(x)<0$ for all $xin(x_0,x_2)$ is that $x_0$ is an upper bound for the set where $f(x)geq0$.
    $endgroup$
    – Simon
    Dec 28 '18 at 1:31










  • $begingroup$
    @Dole, thank you. This was my first thought, too. Trying to prove the last sentence in your comment is what lead me to the proof I gave in my original question.
    $endgroup$
    – Simon
    Dec 28 '18 at 1:39










  • $begingroup$
    @RRL, in fact I am not arguing that there are points in a right neighbourhood of $x_0$ where $f$ is positive. I am arguing that in the interval $(x_0,x_2)$, $f$ must be negative. I am not using the IVT. I believe that I have shown rigorously, that $f(sup A)=0$ (I am calling $sup A$ $x_0$), and that $f'(x_0)leq0$.
    $endgroup$
    – Simon
    Dec 28 '18 at 2:00






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    OK I finished my proof. It gets to the same ultimate argument -- finding a smallest or largest zero $x_0$ bounded away from either $x_1$ or $x_2$ so that, consequently, $f'(x_0) leqslant 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – RRL
    Dec 28 '18 at 2:32
















10












$begingroup$


Suppose that $f:(0,1)tomathbb{R}$ is differentiable, and that $f(x_1)=f(x_2)=0$ and $f’(x_1)>0$ and $f’(x_2)>0$ for some $0 <x_1<x_2<1$. Then there must exist an $x_0in(x_1,x_2)$ such that $f(x_0)=0$ and $f’(x_0)leq0$, as follows:
Let $A={xin(x_1,x_2):f(x)geq0}$, and note that $A$ is nonempty, since the condition $f’(x_1)>0$ guarantees that there exist points that exceed $x_1$ by arbitrarily small amounts, at which $f$ is strictly positive. Also note that $A$ is bounded above, by $x_2$. Therefore, let $x_0=sup A$. Note that $x_0 > x_1$. Since $f’(x_2)>0$, there exist points that $x_2$ exceeds by arbitrarily small positive amounts, at which $f$ is strictly negative. It follows that $x_1 < x_0 < x_2$. By continuity of $f$, we have that $f(x_0)=0$. Since $f(x)<0$ for all $xin(x_0,x_2)$, it follows also that $f’(x_0)leq0$, as required.



Is this proof correct, and is there a simpler proof, perhaps using a ready-made theorem such as the Intermediate Value Theorem ?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Quick thought: by the direction of the derivative there must exist points $f(x_3)>0$ and $f(x_4)<0$. Then apply intermediate value theorem? The derivative is such for at least one point as the function crosses over.
    $endgroup$
    – Dole
    Dec 27 '18 at 21:15












  • $begingroup$
    @RRL, Please check my argument again - in fact I do not appeal to the IVT. Also the reason why $f(x)<0$ for all $xin(x_0,x_2)$ is that $x_0$ is an upper bound for the set where $f(x)geq0$.
    $endgroup$
    – Simon
    Dec 28 '18 at 1:31










  • $begingroup$
    @Dole, thank you. This was my first thought, too. Trying to prove the last sentence in your comment is what lead me to the proof I gave in my original question.
    $endgroup$
    – Simon
    Dec 28 '18 at 1:39










  • $begingroup$
    @RRL, in fact I am not arguing that there are points in a right neighbourhood of $x_0$ where $f$ is positive. I am arguing that in the interval $(x_0,x_2)$, $f$ must be negative. I am not using the IVT. I believe that I have shown rigorously, that $f(sup A)=0$ (I am calling $sup A$ $x_0$), and that $f'(x_0)leq0$.
    $endgroup$
    – Simon
    Dec 28 '18 at 2:00






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    OK I finished my proof. It gets to the same ultimate argument -- finding a smallest or largest zero $x_0$ bounded away from either $x_1$ or $x_2$ so that, consequently, $f'(x_0) leqslant 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – RRL
    Dec 28 '18 at 2:32














10












10








10


3



$begingroup$


Suppose that $f:(0,1)tomathbb{R}$ is differentiable, and that $f(x_1)=f(x_2)=0$ and $f’(x_1)>0$ and $f’(x_2)>0$ for some $0 <x_1<x_2<1$. Then there must exist an $x_0in(x_1,x_2)$ such that $f(x_0)=0$ and $f’(x_0)leq0$, as follows:
Let $A={xin(x_1,x_2):f(x)geq0}$, and note that $A$ is nonempty, since the condition $f’(x_1)>0$ guarantees that there exist points that exceed $x_1$ by arbitrarily small amounts, at which $f$ is strictly positive. Also note that $A$ is bounded above, by $x_2$. Therefore, let $x_0=sup A$. Note that $x_0 > x_1$. Since $f’(x_2)>0$, there exist points that $x_2$ exceeds by arbitrarily small positive amounts, at which $f$ is strictly negative. It follows that $x_1 < x_0 < x_2$. By continuity of $f$, we have that $f(x_0)=0$. Since $f(x)<0$ for all $xin(x_0,x_2)$, it follows also that $f’(x_0)leq0$, as required.



Is this proof correct, and is there a simpler proof, perhaps using a ready-made theorem such as the Intermediate Value Theorem ?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




Suppose that $f:(0,1)tomathbb{R}$ is differentiable, and that $f(x_1)=f(x_2)=0$ and $f’(x_1)>0$ and $f’(x_2)>0$ for some $0 <x_1<x_2<1$. Then there must exist an $x_0in(x_1,x_2)$ such that $f(x_0)=0$ and $f’(x_0)leq0$, as follows:
Let $A={xin(x_1,x_2):f(x)geq0}$, and note that $A$ is nonempty, since the condition $f’(x_1)>0$ guarantees that there exist points that exceed $x_1$ by arbitrarily small amounts, at which $f$ is strictly positive. Also note that $A$ is bounded above, by $x_2$. Therefore, let $x_0=sup A$. Note that $x_0 > x_1$. Since $f’(x_2)>0$, there exist points that $x_2$ exceeds by arbitrarily small positive amounts, at which $f$ is strictly negative. It follows that $x_1 < x_0 < x_2$. By continuity of $f$, we have that $f(x_0)=0$. Since $f(x)<0$ for all $xin(x_0,x_2)$, it follows also that $f’(x_0)leq0$, as required.



Is this proof correct, and is there a simpler proof, perhaps using a ready-made theorem such as the Intermediate Value Theorem ?







real-analysis calculus limits proof-verification alternative-proof






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Dec 27 '18 at 19:13









GNUSupporter 8964民主女神 地下教會

14.1k82651




14.1k82651










asked Dec 27 '18 at 19:08









SimonSimon

793513




793513








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Quick thought: by the direction of the derivative there must exist points $f(x_3)>0$ and $f(x_4)<0$. Then apply intermediate value theorem? The derivative is such for at least one point as the function crosses over.
    $endgroup$
    – Dole
    Dec 27 '18 at 21:15












  • $begingroup$
    @RRL, Please check my argument again - in fact I do not appeal to the IVT. Also the reason why $f(x)<0$ for all $xin(x_0,x_2)$ is that $x_0$ is an upper bound for the set where $f(x)geq0$.
    $endgroup$
    – Simon
    Dec 28 '18 at 1:31










  • $begingroup$
    @Dole, thank you. This was my first thought, too. Trying to prove the last sentence in your comment is what lead me to the proof I gave in my original question.
    $endgroup$
    – Simon
    Dec 28 '18 at 1:39










  • $begingroup$
    @RRL, in fact I am not arguing that there are points in a right neighbourhood of $x_0$ where $f$ is positive. I am arguing that in the interval $(x_0,x_2)$, $f$ must be negative. I am not using the IVT. I believe that I have shown rigorously, that $f(sup A)=0$ (I am calling $sup A$ $x_0$), and that $f'(x_0)leq0$.
    $endgroup$
    – Simon
    Dec 28 '18 at 2:00






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    OK I finished my proof. It gets to the same ultimate argument -- finding a smallest or largest zero $x_0$ bounded away from either $x_1$ or $x_2$ so that, consequently, $f'(x_0) leqslant 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – RRL
    Dec 28 '18 at 2:32














  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Quick thought: by the direction of the derivative there must exist points $f(x_3)>0$ and $f(x_4)<0$. Then apply intermediate value theorem? The derivative is such for at least one point as the function crosses over.
    $endgroup$
    – Dole
    Dec 27 '18 at 21:15












  • $begingroup$
    @RRL, Please check my argument again - in fact I do not appeal to the IVT. Also the reason why $f(x)<0$ for all $xin(x_0,x_2)$ is that $x_0$ is an upper bound for the set where $f(x)geq0$.
    $endgroup$
    – Simon
    Dec 28 '18 at 1:31










  • $begingroup$
    @Dole, thank you. This was my first thought, too. Trying to prove the last sentence in your comment is what lead me to the proof I gave in my original question.
    $endgroup$
    – Simon
    Dec 28 '18 at 1:39










  • $begingroup$
    @RRL, in fact I am not arguing that there are points in a right neighbourhood of $x_0$ where $f$ is positive. I am arguing that in the interval $(x_0,x_2)$, $f$ must be negative. I am not using the IVT. I believe that I have shown rigorously, that $f(sup A)=0$ (I am calling $sup A$ $x_0$), and that $f'(x_0)leq0$.
    $endgroup$
    – Simon
    Dec 28 '18 at 2:00






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    OK I finished my proof. It gets to the same ultimate argument -- finding a smallest or largest zero $x_0$ bounded away from either $x_1$ or $x_2$ so that, consequently, $f'(x_0) leqslant 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – RRL
    Dec 28 '18 at 2:32








2




2




$begingroup$
Quick thought: by the direction of the derivative there must exist points $f(x_3)>0$ and $f(x_4)<0$. Then apply intermediate value theorem? The derivative is such for at least one point as the function crosses over.
$endgroup$
– Dole
Dec 27 '18 at 21:15






$begingroup$
Quick thought: by the direction of the derivative there must exist points $f(x_3)>0$ and $f(x_4)<0$. Then apply intermediate value theorem? The derivative is such for at least one point as the function crosses over.
$endgroup$
– Dole
Dec 27 '18 at 21:15














$begingroup$
@RRL, Please check my argument again - in fact I do not appeal to the IVT. Also the reason why $f(x)<0$ for all $xin(x_0,x_2)$ is that $x_0$ is an upper bound for the set where $f(x)geq0$.
$endgroup$
– Simon
Dec 28 '18 at 1:31




$begingroup$
@RRL, Please check my argument again - in fact I do not appeal to the IVT. Also the reason why $f(x)<0$ for all $xin(x_0,x_2)$ is that $x_0$ is an upper bound for the set where $f(x)geq0$.
$endgroup$
– Simon
Dec 28 '18 at 1:31












$begingroup$
@Dole, thank you. This was my first thought, too. Trying to prove the last sentence in your comment is what lead me to the proof I gave in my original question.
$endgroup$
– Simon
Dec 28 '18 at 1:39




$begingroup$
@Dole, thank you. This was my first thought, too. Trying to prove the last sentence in your comment is what lead me to the proof I gave in my original question.
$endgroup$
– Simon
Dec 28 '18 at 1:39












$begingroup$
@RRL, in fact I am not arguing that there are points in a right neighbourhood of $x_0$ where $f$ is positive. I am arguing that in the interval $(x_0,x_2)$, $f$ must be negative. I am not using the IVT. I believe that I have shown rigorously, that $f(sup A)=0$ (I am calling $sup A$ $x_0$), and that $f'(x_0)leq0$.
$endgroup$
– Simon
Dec 28 '18 at 2:00




$begingroup$
@RRL, in fact I am not arguing that there are points in a right neighbourhood of $x_0$ where $f$ is positive. I am arguing that in the interval $(x_0,x_2)$, $f$ must be negative. I am not using the IVT. I believe that I have shown rigorously, that $f(sup A)=0$ (I am calling $sup A$ $x_0$), and that $f'(x_0)leq0$.
$endgroup$
– Simon
Dec 28 '18 at 2:00




1




1




$begingroup$
OK I finished my proof. It gets to the same ultimate argument -- finding a smallest or largest zero $x_0$ bounded away from either $x_1$ or $x_2$ so that, consequently, $f'(x_0) leqslant 0$.
$endgroup$
– RRL
Dec 28 '18 at 2:32




$begingroup$
OK I finished my proof. It gets to the same ultimate argument -- finding a smallest or largest zero $x_0$ bounded away from either $x_1$ or $x_2$ so that, consequently, $f'(x_0) leqslant 0$.
$endgroup$
– RRL
Dec 28 '18 at 2:32










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















2












$begingroup$

By your argument there are points $x_1 < x' < x'' < x_2$ where $f(x') > 0$ and $f(x'') < 0$. By the IVT there is at least one point $y_1$ (and possibly more) where $x' < y_1 < x''$ and $f(y_1) = 0$.



If $f'(y_1) leqslant 0$, then we are done. On the other hand, if $f'(y_1) > 0$, then we have the same problem with $y_1$ replacing $x_2$ and there exists a point $y_2$ between $x_1$ and $y_1$ such that $f(y_2) = 0$.



Continuing in this way we either find a zero where the derivative is less than or equal to $0$ or generate a sequence $y_n in (x',x'')$ such that $f(y_n) = 0$ and $f'(y_n) > 0$.



However, it can be shown that if there are no zeros of a function that is differentiable on a closed interval where the derivative is also $0$, then the set of zeros is finite. Since $f$ is differentiable on the closed interval $[x_1,x_2]$ there exists only a finite set of zeros ${y_1,y_2, ldots, y_n}$ between $x_1$ and $x_2$.



Armed with this, you can now show that $f'(y_n) leqslant 0$ since $y_n$ must be the smallest number between $x'$ and $x''$ with $f(y_n) = 0$. If $f'(y_n) > 0$ then there would be another zero between $x'$ and $y_n$, a contradiction.



Addendum



Suppose $f$ is differentiable on $[a,b]$ and at no point $x in [a,b]$ do we have $f(x) = f'(x) = 0$. Then the set of points in $[a,b]$ where $f(x) = 0$ is finite.



To prove this, assume otherwise. Then there is an infinite sequence of zeros and by compactness and continuity a subsequence $(x_n)$ converging to some point $c in [a,b]$ such that $f(x_n) = f(c) = 0$. Since $f$ is differentiable



$$f'(c) = lim_{n to infty} frac{f(x_n) - f(c)}{x_n - c} = 0,$$



a contradiction.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Thank you for your answer, RRL. Can you elaborate on how to prove the statement preceded by "it can be shown that" ?
    $endgroup$
    – Simon
    Dec 28 '18 at 1:37










  • $begingroup$
    After the second paragraph why don't you just say: the sequence $y_1gt y_2gt y_3gtcdots$ is decreasing and bounded, so it converges to a limit $y=lim_{ntoinfty}y_n$. Then $x_1le ylt x_2$, and $f(y)=0$ by continuity since $f(y_n)=0$, and $f'(y)=0$ since $$f'(y)=lim_{ntoinfty}frac{f(y_n)-f(y)}{y_n-y}=lim_{ntoinfty}0=0,$$ so $x_1lt y$ since $f'(x_1)gt0=f'(y)$?
    $endgroup$
    – bof
    Dec 28 '18 at 3:04












  • $begingroup$
    @bof: That is a great suggestion. On the other hand what I like about this site is the opportunity to pursue less than conventional lines of thought unlike the many more constrained aspects in my life. :-)
    $endgroup$
    – RRL
    Dec 28 '18 at 3:45



















0












$begingroup$

Your proof is correct (+1) and the key idea is that if $f$ is continuous on $[a, b] $ then the set $A={xmid xin[a, b], f(x) =k} $ is closed (inverse image of a closed set under continuous map is closed, similar result holds for open sets also).



Here you choose $a$ near and to the right of $x_1$ so that $f(x) >0,forall xin(x_1,a]$ and $b$ near and to the left of $x_2$ such that $f(x) <0,forall xin[b, x_2)$. By IVT the set $$A={xmid xin[a, b], f(x) =0} $$ is non empty and as noted above is closed. Since $A$ is obviously bounded and closed it has a minimum and a maximum. Both $min A$ and $max A$ (which can be same) work as the desired point $x_0$.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Thank you Paramanand.
    $endgroup$
    – Simon
    Dec 28 '18 at 10:33












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2 Answers
2






active

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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

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active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









2












$begingroup$

By your argument there are points $x_1 < x' < x'' < x_2$ where $f(x') > 0$ and $f(x'') < 0$. By the IVT there is at least one point $y_1$ (and possibly more) where $x' < y_1 < x''$ and $f(y_1) = 0$.



If $f'(y_1) leqslant 0$, then we are done. On the other hand, if $f'(y_1) > 0$, then we have the same problem with $y_1$ replacing $x_2$ and there exists a point $y_2$ between $x_1$ and $y_1$ such that $f(y_2) = 0$.



Continuing in this way we either find a zero where the derivative is less than or equal to $0$ or generate a sequence $y_n in (x',x'')$ such that $f(y_n) = 0$ and $f'(y_n) > 0$.



However, it can be shown that if there are no zeros of a function that is differentiable on a closed interval where the derivative is also $0$, then the set of zeros is finite. Since $f$ is differentiable on the closed interval $[x_1,x_2]$ there exists only a finite set of zeros ${y_1,y_2, ldots, y_n}$ between $x_1$ and $x_2$.



Armed with this, you can now show that $f'(y_n) leqslant 0$ since $y_n$ must be the smallest number between $x'$ and $x''$ with $f(y_n) = 0$. If $f'(y_n) > 0$ then there would be another zero between $x'$ and $y_n$, a contradiction.



Addendum



Suppose $f$ is differentiable on $[a,b]$ and at no point $x in [a,b]$ do we have $f(x) = f'(x) = 0$. Then the set of points in $[a,b]$ where $f(x) = 0$ is finite.



To prove this, assume otherwise. Then there is an infinite sequence of zeros and by compactness and continuity a subsequence $(x_n)$ converging to some point $c in [a,b]$ such that $f(x_n) = f(c) = 0$. Since $f$ is differentiable



$$f'(c) = lim_{n to infty} frac{f(x_n) - f(c)}{x_n - c} = 0,$$



a contradiction.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Thank you for your answer, RRL. Can you elaborate on how to prove the statement preceded by "it can be shown that" ?
    $endgroup$
    – Simon
    Dec 28 '18 at 1:37










  • $begingroup$
    After the second paragraph why don't you just say: the sequence $y_1gt y_2gt y_3gtcdots$ is decreasing and bounded, so it converges to a limit $y=lim_{ntoinfty}y_n$. Then $x_1le ylt x_2$, and $f(y)=0$ by continuity since $f(y_n)=0$, and $f'(y)=0$ since $$f'(y)=lim_{ntoinfty}frac{f(y_n)-f(y)}{y_n-y}=lim_{ntoinfty}0=0,$$ so $x_1lt y$ since $f'(x_1)gt0=f'(y)$?
    $endgroup$
    – bof
    Dec 28 '18 at 3:04












  • $begingroup$
    @bof: That is a great suggestion. On the other hand what I like about this site is the opportunity to pursue less than conventional lines of thought unlike the many more constrained aspects in my life. :-)
    $endgroup$
    – RRL
    Dec 28 '18 at 3:45
















2












$begingroup$

By your argument there are points $x_1 < x' < x'' < x_2$ where $f(x') > 0$ and $f(x'') < 0$. By the IVT there is at least one point $y_1$ (and possibly more) where $x' < y_1 < x''$ and $f(y_1) = 0$.



If $f'(y_1) leqslant 0$, then we are done. On the other hand, if $f'(y_1) > 0$, then we have the same problem with $y_1$ replacing $x_2$ and there exists a point $y_2$ between $x_1$ and $y_1$ such that $f(y_2) = 0$.



Continuing in this way we either find a zero where the derivative is less than or equal to $0$ or generate a sequence $y_n in (x',x'')$ such that $f(y_n) = 0$ and $f'(y_n) > 0$.



However, it can be shown that if there are no zeros of a function that is differentiable on a closed interval where the derivative is also $0$, then the set of zeros is finite. Since $f$ is differentiable on the closed interval $[x_1,x_2]$ there exists only a finite set of zeros ${y_1,y_2, ldots, y_n}$ between $x_1$ and $x_2$.



Armed with this, you can now show that $f'(y_n) leqslant 0$ since $y_n$ must be the smallest number between $x'$ and $x''$ with $f(y_n) = 0$. If $f'(y_n) > 0$ then there would be another zero between $x'$ and $y_n$, a contradiction.



Addendum



Suppose $f$ is differentiable on $[a,b]$ and at no point $x in [a,b]$ do we have $f(x) = f'(x) = 0$. Then the set of points in $[a,b]$ where $f(x) = 0$ is finite.



To prove this, assume otherwise. Then there is an infinite sequence of zeros and by compactness and continuity a subsequence $(x_n)$ converging to some point $c in [a,b]$ such that $f(x_n) = f(c) = 0$. Since $f$ is differentiable



$$f'(c) = lim_{n to infty} frac{f(x_n) - f(c)}{x_n - c} = 0,$$



a contradiction.






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  • $begingroup$
    Thank you for your answer, RRL. Can you elaborate on how to prove the statement preceded by "it can be shown that" ?
    $endgroup$
    – Simon
    Dec 28 '18 at 1:37










  • $begingroup$
    After the second paragraph why don't you just say: the sequence $y_1gt y_2gt y_3gtcdots$ is decreasing and bounded, so it converges to a limit $y=lim_{ntoinfty}y_n$. Then $x_1le ylt x_2$, and $f(y)=0$ by continuity since $f(y_n)=0$, and $f'(y)=0$ since $$f'(y)=lim_{ntoinfty}frac{f(y_n)-f(y)}{y_n-y}=lim_{ntoinfty}0=0,$$ so $x_1lt y$ since $f'(x_1)gt0=f'(y)$?
    $endgroup$
    – bof
    Dec 28 '18 at 3:04












  • $begingroup$
    @bof: That is a great suggestion. On the other hand what I like about this site is the opportunity to pursue less than conventional lines of thought unlike the many more constrained aspects in my life. :-)
    $endgroup$
    – RRL
    Dec 28 '18 at 3:45














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By your argument there are points $x_1 < x' < x'' < x_2$ where $f(x') > 0$ and $f(x'') < 0$. By the IVT there is at least one point $y_1$ (and possibly more) where $x' < y_1 < x''$ and $f(y_1) = 0$.



If $f'(y_1) leqslant 0$, then we are done. On the other hand, if $f'(y_1) > 0$, then we have the same problem with $y_1$ replacing $x_2$ and there exists a point $y_2$ between $x_1$ and $y_1$ such that $f(y_2) = 0$.



Continuing in this way we either find a zero where the derivative is less than or equal to $0$ or generate a sequence $y_n in (x',x'')$ such that $f(y_n) = 0$ and $f'(y_n) > 0$.



However, it can be shown that if there are no zeros of a function that is differentiable on a closed interval where the derivative is also $0$, then the set of zeros is finite. Since $f$ is differentiable on the closed interval $[x_1,x_2]$ there exists only a finite set of zeros ${y_1,y_2, ldots, y_n}$ between $x_1$ and $x_2$.



Armed with this, you can now show that $f'(y_n) leqslant 0$ since $y_n$ must be the smallest number between $x'$ and $x''$ with $f(y_n) = 0$. If $f'(y_n) > 0$ then there would be another zero between $x'$ and $y_n$, a contradiction.



Addendum



Suppose $f$ is differentiable on $[a,b]$ and at no point $x in [a,b]$ do we have $f(x) = f'(x) = 0$. Then the set of points in $[a,b]$ where $f(x) = 0$ is finite.



To prove this, assume otherwise. Then there is an infinite sequence of zeros and by compactness and continuity a subsequence $(x_n)$ converging to some point $c in [a,b]$ such that $f(x_n) = f(c) = 0$. Since $f$ is differentiable



$$f'(c) = lim_{n to infty} frac{f(x_n) - f(c)}{x_n - c} = 0,$$



a contradiction.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$



By your argument there are points $x_1 < x' < x'' < x_2$ where $f(x') > 0$ and $f(x'') < 0$. By the IVT there is at least one point $y_1$ (and possibly more) where $x' < y_1 < x''$ and $f(y_1) = 0$.



If $f'(y_1) leqslant 0$, then we are done. On the other hand, if $f'(y_1) > 0$, then we have the same problem with $y_1$ replacing $x_2$ and there exists a point $y_2$ between $x_1$ and $y_1$ such that $f(y_2) = 0$.



Continuing in this way we either find a zero where the derivative is less than or equal to $0$ or generate a sequence $y_n in (x',x'')$ such that $f(y_n) = 0$ and $f'(y_n) > 0$.



However, it can be shown that if there are no zeros of a function that is differentiable on a closed interval where the derivative is also $0$, then the set of zeros is finite. Since $f$ is differentiable on the closed interval $[x_1,x_2]$ there exists only a finite set of zeros ${y_1,y_2, ldots, y_n}$ between $x_1$ and $x_2$.



Armed with this, you can now show that $f'(y_n) leqslant 0$ since $y_n$ must be the smallest number between $x'$ and $x''$ with $f(y_n) = 0$. If $f'(y_n) > 0$ then there would be another zero between $x'$ and $y_n$, a contradiction.



Addendum



Suppose $f$ is differentiable on $[a,b]$ and at no point $x in [a,b]$ do we have $f(x) = f'(x) = 0$. Then the set of points in $[a,b]$ where $f(x) = 0$ is finite.



To prove this, assume otherwise. Then there is an infinite sequence of zeros and by compactness and continuity a subsequence $(x_n)$ converging to some point $c in [a,b]$ such that $f(x_n) = f(c) = 0$. Since $f$ is differentiable



$$f'(c) = lim_{n to infty} frac{f(x_n) - f(c)}{x_n - c} = 0,$$



a contradiction.







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share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Dec 28 '18 at 2:29

























answered Dec 27 '18 at 20:12









RRLRRL

53.6k52574




53.6k52574












  • $begingroup$
    Thank you for your answer, RRL. Can you elaborate on how to prove the statement preceded by "it can be shown that" ?
    $endgroup$
    – Simon
    Dec 28 '18 at 1:37










  • $begingroup$
    After the second paragraph why don't you just say: the sequence $y_1gt y_2gt y_3gtcdots$ is decreasing and bounded, so it converges to a limit $y=lim_{ntoinfty}y_n$. Then $x_1le ylt x_2$, and $f(y)=0$ by continuity since $f(y_n)=0$, and $f'(y)=0$ since $$f'(y)=lim_{ntoinfty}frac{f(y_n)-f(y)}{y_n-y}=lim_{ntoinfty}0=0,$$ so $x_1lt y$ since $f'(x_1)gt0=f'(y)$?
    $endgroup$
    – bof
    Dec 28 '18 at 3:04












  • $begingroup$
    @bof: That is a great suggestion. On the other hand what I like about this site is the opportunity to pursue less than conventional lines of thought unlike the many more constrained aspects in my life. :-)
    $endgroup$
    – RRL
    Dec 28 '18 at 3:45


















  • $begingroup$
    Thank you for your answer, RRL. Can you elaborate on how to prove the statement preceded by "it can be shown that" ?
    $endgroup$
    – Simon
    Dec 28 '18 at 1:37










  • $begingroup$
    After the second paragraph why don't you just say: the sequence $y_1gt y_2gt y_3gtcdots$ is decreasing and bounded, so it converges to a limit $y=lim_{ntoinfty}y_n$. Then $x_1le ylt x_2$, and $f(y)=0$ by continuity since $f(y_n)=0$, and $f'(y)=0$ since $$f'(y)=lim_{ntoinfty}frac{f(y_n)-f(y)}{y_n-y}=lim_{ntoinfty}0=0,$$ so $x_1lt y$ since $f'(x_1)gt0=f'(y)$?
    $endgroup$
    – bof
    Dec 28 '18 at 3:04












  • $begingroup$
    @bof: That is a great suggestion. On the other hand what I like about this site is the opportunity to pursue less than conventional lines of thought unlike the many more constrained aspects in my life. :-)
    $endgroup$
    – RRL
    Dec 28 '18 at 3:45
















$begingroup$
Thank you for your answer, RRL. Can you elaborate on how to prove the statement preceded by "it can be shown that" ?
$endgroup$
– Simon
Dec 28 '18 at 1:37




$begingroup$
Thank you for your answer, RRL. Can you elaborate on how to prove the statement preceded by "it can be shown that" ?
$endgroup$
– Simon
Dec 28 '18 at 1:37












$begingroup$
After the second paragraph why don't you just say: the sequence $y_1gt y_2gt y_3gtcdots$ is decreasing and bounded, so it converges to a limit $y=lim_{ntoinfty}y_n$. Then $x_1le ylt x_2$, and $f(y)=0$ by continuity since $f(y_n)=0$, and $f'(y)=0$ since $$f'(y)=lim_{ntoinfty}frac{f(y_n)-f(y)}{y_n-y}=lim_{ntoinfty}0=0,$$ so $x_1lt y$ since $f'(x_1)gt0=f'(y)$?
$endgroup$
– bof
Dec 28 '18 at 3:04






$begingroup$
After the second paragraph why don't you just say: the sequence $y_1gt y_2gt y_3gtcdots$ is decreasing and bounded, so it converges to a limit $y=lim_{ntoinfty}y_n$. Then $x_1le ylt x_2$, and $f(y)=0$ by continuity since $f(y_n)=0$, and $f'(y)=0$ since $$f'(y)=lim_{ntoinfty}frac{f(y_n)-f(y)}{y_n-y}=lim_{ntoinfty}0=0,$$ so $x_1lt y$ since $f'(x_1)gt0=f'(y)$?
$endgroup$
– bof
Dec 28 '18 at 3:04














$begingroup$
@bof: That is a great suggestion. On the other hand what I like about this site is the opportunity to pursue less than conventional lines of thought unlike the many more constrained aspects in my life. :-)
$endgroup$
– RRL
Dec 28 '18 at 3:45




$begingroup$
@bof: That is a great suggestion. On the other hand what I like about this site is the opportunity to pursue less than conventional lines of thought unlike the many more constrained aspects in my life. :-)
$endgroup$
– RRL
Dec 28 '18 at 3:45











0












$begingroup$

Your proof is correct (+1) and the key idea is that if $f$ is continuous on $[a, b] $ then the set $A={xmid xin[a, b], f(x) =k} $ is closed (inverse image of a closed set under continuous map is closed, similar result holds for open sets also).



Here you choose $a$ near and to the right of $x_1$ so that $f(x) >0,forall xin(x_1,a]$ and $b$ near and to the left of $x_2$ such that $f(x) <0,forall xin[b, x_2)$. By IVT the set $$A={xmid xin[a, b], f(x) =0} $$ is non empty and as noted above is closed. Since $A$ is obviously bounded and closed it has a minimum and a maximum. Both $min A$ and $max A$ (which can be same) work as the desired point $x_0$.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Thank you Paramanand.
    $endgroup$
    – Simon
    Dec 28 '18 at 10:33
















0












$begingroup$

Your proof is correct (+1) and the key idea is that if $f$ is continuous on $[a, b] $ then the set $A={xmid xin[a, b], f(x) =k} $ is closed (inverse image of a closed set under continuous map is closed, similar result holds for open sets also).



Here you choose $a$ near and to the right of $x_1$ so that $f(x) >0,forall xin(x_1,a]$ and $b$ near and to the left of $x_2$ such that $f(x) <0,forall xin[b, x_2)$. By IVT the set $$A={xmid xin[a, b], f(x) =0} $$ is non empty and as noted above is closed. Since $A$ is obviously bounded and closed it has a minimum and a maximum. Both $min A$ and $max A$ (which can be same) work as the desired point $x_0$.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Thank you Paramanand.
    $endgroup$
    – Simon
    Dec 28 '18 at 10:33














0












0








0





$begingroup$

Your proof is correct (+1) and the key idea is that if $f$ is continuous on $[a, b] $ then the set $A={xmid xin[a, b], f(x) =k} $ is closed (inverse image of a closed set under continuous map is closed, similar result holds for open sets also).



Here you choose $a$ near and to the right of $x_1$ so that $f(x) >0,forall xin(x_1,a]$ and $b$ near and to the left of $x_2$ such that $f(x) <0,forall xin[b, x_2)$. By IVT the set $$A={xmid xin[a, b], f(x) =0} $$ is non empty and as noted above is closed. Since $A$ is obviously bounded and closed it has a minimum and a maximum. Both $min A$ and $max A$ (which can be same) work as the desired point $x_0$.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$



Your proof is correct (+1) and the key idea is that if $f$ is continuous on $[a, b] $ then the set $A={xmid xin[a, b], f(x) =k} $ is closed (inverse image of a closed set under continuous map is closed, similar result holds for open sets also).



Here you choose $a$ near and to the right of $x_1$ so that $f(x) >0,forall xin(x_1,a]$ and $b$ near and to the left of $x_2$ such that $f(x) <0,forall xin[b, x_2)$. By IVT the set $$A={xmid xin[a, b], f(x) =0} $$ is non empty and as noted above is closed. Since $A$ is obviously bounded and closed it has a minimum and a maximum. Both $min A$ and $max A$ (which can be same) work as the desired point $x_0$.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Dec 28 '18 at 2:54

























answered Dec 28 '18 at 2:45









Paramanand SinghParamanand Singh

51.4k560170




51.4k560170












  • $begingroup$
    Thank you Paramanand.
    $endgroup$
    – Simon
    Dec 28 '18 at 10:33


















  • $begingroup$
    Thank you Paramanand.
    $endgroup$
    – Simon
    Dec 28 '18 at 10:33
















$begingroup$
Thank you Paramanand.
$endgroup$
– Simon
Dec 28 '18 at 10:33




$begingroup$
Thank you Paramanand.
$endgroup$
– Simon
Dec 28 '18 at 10:33


















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