Why do we need isomorphism between a diagram and a cone L for it to be a limit?
I read from these slides:
a limit of a diagram containing just one object A and no
morphism is any object L that is isomorphic to A (the
isomorphism is part of the limit);
and was unsure why we needed the isomorphism between $A$ and $L$. Isn't $L$ in this scenario a limit even if A and L are not isomorphic because there is no other cone (so that condition is vacuously satisfied?).
i.e. if L points to diagram A, isn't L a limit of that diagram?
How does the isomorphism play a role in showing that $L$ is a limit of the diagram $A$?
My thoughts:
The way I understand the question is as follows. The claim is that a limit of a diagram with a single object $A$ is any $(L,delta_A)$ such that $L cong A$. So if $L cong A$ then it is a limit. To show $L$ is a limit we need to show that
$(L,delta_A)$ is a conde of the diagram $d$ (which is trivial)- for any other cone $(C,gamma_A)$ that there exists a unique factorization given by $gamma_A = h; delta_A$.
In particular I believe there are two cases to check:
- $C = A$
- $C neq A$
I think for case 1 part of the proof goes as follow: Consider any cone $(C,gamma_A)$. Then for $(L,delta_A)$ to be a limit we need to check $gamma_A = h; delta_A = delta circ h$ (assume we already know they are cones of $d$). Since we know $L cong A$ we know there exists $f: L to A$ and $g: A to L$ such that $f;g = 1_L$ and $g;f = 1_A$. Therefore to satisfy $gamma_A = h; delta_A$ choose the $h$ that makes $1_A= h; delta_A$ true. Here is where I get confused:
- How do I know $gamma_A = 1_A$? Is this where the assumption in the paragraph I quoted goes into play? i.e. "the isomorphism is part of the limit". How do we know $delta_A$ does have that property? $delta_A$ is a morphism from $L to A$. If this was in the category Set it could be that $delta_A$ maps everything from $L$ to a single element of $A$, which makes it non-invertible, so I can't see how the bijection could take place.
the second case is even less clear to me how we show such a factorization exists and what is the role of saying $L$ is isomorphic to $A$ is.
category-theory limits-colimits
|
show 7 more comments
I read from these slides:
a limit of a diagram containing just one object A and no
morphism is any object L that is isomorphic to A (the
isomorphism is part of the limit);
and was unsure why we needed the isomorphism between $A$ and $L$. Isn't $L$ in this scenario a limit even if A and L are not isomorphic because there is no other cone (so that condition is vacuously satisfied?).
i.e. if L points to diagram A, isn't L a limit of that diagram?
How does the isomorphism play a role in showing that $L$ is a limit of the diagram $A$?
My thoughts:
The way I understand the question is as follows. The claim is that a limit of a diagram with a single object $A$ is any $(L,delta_A)$ such that $L cong A$. So if $L cong A$ then it is a limit. To show $L$ is a limit we need to show that
$(L,delta_A)$ is a conde of the diagram $d$ (which is trivial)- for any other cone $(C,gamma_A)$ that there exists a unique factorization given by $gamma_A = h; delta_A$.
In particular I believe there are two cases to check:
- $C = A$
- $C neq A$
I think for case 1 part of the proof goes as follow: Consider any cone $(C,gamma_A)$. Then for $(L,delta_A)$ to be a limit we need to check $gamma_A = h; delta_A = delta circ h$ (assume we already know they are cones of $d$). Since we know $L cong A$ we know there exists $f: L to A$ and $g: A to L$ such that $f;g = 1_L$ and $g;f = 1_A$. Therefore to satisfy $gamma_A = h; delta_A$ choose the $h$ that makes $1_A= h; delta_A$ true. Here is where I get confused:
- How do I know $gamma_A = 1_A$? Is this where the assumption in the paragraph I quoted goes into play? i.e. "the isomorphism is part of the limit". How do we know $delta_A$ does have that property? $delta_A$ is a morphism from $L to A$. If this was in the category Set it could be that $delta_A$ maps everything from $L$ to a single element of $A$, which makes it non-invertible, so I can't see how the bijection could take place.
the second case is even less clear to me how we show such a factorization exists and what is the role of saying $L$ is isomorphic to $A$ is.
category-theory limits-colimits
Why do you say there is no other cone? You seem to not understand the definition of a cone.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 18 at 20:34
@EricWofsey that could be true! My understanding of a cone of a diagram d is a pair $(C,{ gamma_i}_{i in V})$ such that these triangles commute with the help of an edge in the diagram i.e. $gamma_i ; d(i to j) = gamma_j$ where $gamma_j = C to d(j)$ is a morphism from the object $C$ to the object in the diagram $d(j)$.
– Pinocchio
Nov 18 at 20:39
@EricWofsey I say there is no other cone because $L$ is the only thing "pointing" to the diagram where $A$ lives.
– Pinocchio
Nov 18 at 20:40
@EricWofsey I thought the only cone in question was the one related to $L$. Did I misunderstand that paragraph?
– Pinocchio
Nov 18 at 20:41
1
In the definition of a limit, "any other" means just "any". This is quite common in math, though you will also sometimes find "any other" used to mean "any different from the one we have". The latter usage is somewhat informal and should not be used unless it is completely clear what is meant from context.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 18 at 21:09
|
show 7 more comments
I read from these slides:
a limit of a diagram containing just one object A and no
morphism is any object L that is isomorphic to A (the
isomorphism is part of the limit);
and was unsure why we needed the isomorphism between $A$ and $L$. Isn't $L$ in this scenario a limit even if A and L are not isomorphic because there is no other cone (so that condition is vacuously satisfied?).
i.e. if L points to diagram A, isn't L a limit of that diagram?
How does the isomorphism play a role in showing that $L$ is a limit of the diagram $A$?
My thoughts:
The way I understand the question is as follows. The claim is that a limit of a diagram with a single object $A$ is any $(L,delta_A)$ such that $L cong A$. So if $L cong A$ then it is a limit. To show $L$ is a limit we need to show that
$(L,delta_A)$ is a conde of the diagram $d$ (which is trivial)- for any other cone $(C,gamma_A)$ that there exists a unique factorization given by $gamma_A = h; delta_A$.
In particular I believe there are two cases to check:
- $C = A$
- $C neq A$
I think for case 1 part of the proof goes as follow: Consider any cone $(C,gamma_A)$. Then for $(L,delta_A)$ to be a limit we need to check $gamma_A = h; delta_A = delta circ h$ (assume we already know they are cones of $d$). Since we know $L cong A$ we know there exists $f: L to A$ and $g: A to L$ such that $f;g = 1_L$ and $g;f = 1_A$. Therefore to satisfy $gamma_A = h; delta_A$ choose the $h$ that makes $1_A= h; delta_A$ true. Here is where I get confused:
- How do I know $gamma_A = 1_A$? Is this where the assumption in the paragraph I quoted goes into play? i.e. "the isomorphism is part of the limit". How do we know $delta_A$ does have that property? $delta_A$ is a morphism from $L to A$. If this was in the category Set it could be that $delta_A$ maps everything from $L$ to a single element of $A$, which makes it non-invertible, so I can't see how the bijection could take place.
the second case is even less clear to me how we show such a factorization exists and what is the role of saying $L$ is isomorphic to $A$ is.
category-theory limits-colimits
I read from these slides:
a limit of a diagram containing just one object A and no
morphism is any object L that is isomorphic to A (the
isomorphism is part of the limit);
and was unsure why we needed the isomorphism between $A$ and $L$. Isn't $L$ in this scenario a limit even if A and L are not isomorphic because there is no other cone (so that condition is vacuously satisfied?).
i.e. if L points to diagram A, isn't L a limit of that diagram?
How does the isomorphism play a role in showing that $L$ is a limit of the diagram $A$?
My thoughts:
The way I understand the question is as follows. The claim is that a limit of a diagram with a single object $A$ is any $(L,delta_A)$ such that $L cong A$. So if $L cong A$ then it is a limit. To show $L$ is a limit we need to show that
$(L,delta_A)$ is a conde of the diagram $d$ (which is trivial)- for any other cone $(C,gamma_A)$ that there exists a unique factorization given by $gamma_A = h; delta_A$.
In particular I believe there are two cases to check:
- $C = A$
- $C neq A$
I think for case 1 part of the proof goes as follow: Consider any cone $(C,gamma_A)$. Then for $(L,delta_A)$ to be a limit we need to check $gamma_A = h; delta_A = delta circ h$ (assume we already know they are cones of $d$). Since we know $L cong A$ we know there exists $f: L to A$ and $g: A to L$ such that $f;g = 1_L$ and $g;f = 1_A$. Therefore to satisfy $gamma_A = h; delta_A$ choose the $h$ that makes $1_A= h; delta_A$ true. Here is where I get confused:
- How do I know $gamma_A = 1_A$? Is this where the assumption in the paragraph I quoted goes into play? i.e. "the isomorphism is part of the limit". How do we know $delta_A$ does have that property? $delta_A$ is a morphism from $L to A$. If this was in the category Set it could be that $delta_A$ maps everything from $L$ to a single element of $A$, which makes it non-invertible, so I can't see how the bijection could take place.
the second case is even less clear to me how we show such a factorization exists and what is the role of saying $L$ is isomorphic to $A$ is.
category-theory limits-colimits
category-theory limits-colimits
edited Nov 20 at 20:00
asked Nov 18 at 20:28
Pinocchio
1,88021754
1,88021754
Why do you say there is no other cone? You seem to not understand the definition of a cone.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 18 at 20:34
@EricWofsey that could be true! My understanding of a cone of a diagram d is a pair $(C,{ gamma_i}_{i in V})$ such that these triangles commute with the help of an edge in the diagram i.e. $gamma_i ; d(i to j) = gamma_j$ where $gamma_j = C to d(j)$ is a morphism from the object $C$ to the object in the diagram $d(j)$.
– Pinocchio
Nov 18 at 20:39
@EricWofsey I say there is no other cone because $L$ is the only thing "pointing" to the diagram where $A$ lives.
– Pinocchio
Nov 18 at 20:40
@EricWofsey I thought the only cone in question was the one related to $L$. Did I misunderstand that paragraph?
– Pinocchio
Nov 18 at 20:41
1
In the definition of a limit, "any other" means just "any". This is quite common in math, though you will also sometimes find "any other" used to mean "any different from the one we have". The latter usage is somewhat informal and should not be used unless it is completely clear what is meant from context.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 18 at 21:09
|
show 7 more comments
Why do you say there is no other cone? You seem to not understand the definition of a cone.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 18 at 20:34
@EricWofsey that could be true! My understanding of a cone of a diagram d is a pair $(C,{ gamma_i}_{i in V})$ such that these triangles commute with the help of an edge in the diagram i.e. $gamma_i ; d(i to j) = gamma_j$ where $gamma_j = C to d(j)$ is a morphism from the object $C$ to the object in the diagram $d(j)$.
– Pinocchio
Nov 18 at 20:39
@EricWofsey I say there is no other cone because $L$ is the only thing "pointing" to the diagram where $A$ lives.
– Pinocchio
Nov 18 at 20:40
@EricWofsey I thought the only cone in question was the one related to $L$. Did I misunderstand that paragraph?
– Pinocchio
Nov 18 at 20:41
1
In the definition of a limit, "any other" means just "any". This is quite common in math, though you will also sometimes find "any other" used to mean "any different from the one we have". The latter usage is somewhat informal and should not be used unless it is completely clear what is meant from context.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 18 at 21:09
Why do you say there is no other cone? You seem to not understand the definition of a cone.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 18 at 20:34
Why do you say there is no other cone? You seem to not understand the definition of a cone.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 18 at 20:34
@EricWofsey that could be true! My understanding of a cone of a diagram d is a pair $(C,{ gamma_i}_{i in V})$ such that these triangles commute with the help of an edge in the diagram i.e. $gamma_i ; d(i to j) = gamma_j$ where $gamma_j = C to d(j)$ is a morphism from the object $C$ to the object in the diagram $d(j)$.
– Pinocchio
Nov 18 at 20:39
@EricWofsey that could be true! My understanding of a cone of a diagram d is a pair $(C,{ gamma_i}_{i in V})$ such that these triangles commute with the help of an edge in the diagram i.e. $gamma_i ; d(i to j) = gamma_j$ where $gamma_j = C to d(j)$ is a morphism from the object $C$ to the object in the diagram $d(j)$.
– Pinocchio
Nov 18 at 20:39
@EricWofsey I say there is no other cone because $L$ is the only thing "pointing" to the diagram where $A$ lives.
– Pinocchio
Nov 18 at 20:40
@EricWofsey I say there is no other cone because $L$ is the only thing "pointing" to the diagram where $A$ lives.
– Pinocchio
Nov 18 at 20:40
@EricWofsey I thought the only cone in question was the one related to $L$. Did I misunderstand that paragraph?
– Pinocchio
Nov 18 at 20:41
@EricWofsey I thought the only cone in question was the one related to $L$. Did I misunderstand that paragraph?
– Pinocchio
Nov 18 at 20:41
1
1
In the definition of a limit, "any other" means just "any". This is quite common in math, though you will also sometimes find "any other" used to mean "any different from the one we have". The latter usage is somewhat informal and should not be used unless it is completely clear what is meant from context.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 18 at 21:09
In the definition of a limit, "any other" means just "any". This is quite common in math, though you will also sometimes find "any other" used to mean "any different from the one we have". The latter usage is somewhat informal and should not be used unless it is completely clear what is meant from context.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 18 at 21:09
|
show 7 more comments
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
There are lots of cones! For any object $B$, every morphism $f:Bto A$ is a cone over this diagram. So the condition for $i:L to A$ to be a limit is that for every $f:Bto A$ there exists a unique $g:Bto L$ such that $ig=f$. Taking $B=A$ and $f=1_A$ gives a morphism $g$ such that $ig=1_A$. We then have $igi=i=i1_L$ which implies $gi=1_L$ using the uniqueness condition with $f=i$. So, $i$ is an isomorphism with inverse $g$.
I would also remark that even if there are no other cones, that still doesn't immediately imply that $i:Lto A$ is a limit, since $i:Lto A$ is still a cone and so the definition is not vacuous. The limit condition is required to hold for all cones, not just those that are different from the limiting cone.
how do you know $ig = 1_A$ is true?
– Pinocchio
Nov 19 at 1:34
That's by definition of $g$: it's the unique $g$ such that $ig=f$, for $f=1_A$.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 19 at 1:55
I see I guess that the part that needs the isomorphism between A and L. i.e. without that $g$ wouldn't exist. i.e. we choose the "other" cone $B$ to be $A$ isomorphic to $L$. Right?
– Pinocchio
Nov 19 at 1:56
I'm not sure what you mean. The argument I gave is a proof that $i:Ato L$ is an isomorphism, assuming it is a limit. So, that argument is the reason why you must have an isomorphism.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 19 at 2:05
you know what " (the isomorphism is part of the limit)" means?
– Pinocchio
Nov 20 at 4:30
|
show 13 more comments
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There are lots of cones! For any object $B$, every morphism $f:Bto A$ is a cone over this diagram. So the condition for $i:L to A$ to be a limit is that for every $f:Bto A$ there exists a unique $g:Bto L$ such that $ig=f$. Taking $B=A$ and $f=1_A$ gives a morphism $g$ such that $ig=1_A$. We then have $igi=i=i1_L$ which implies $gi=1_L$ using the uniqueness condition with $f=i$. So, $i$ is an isomorphism with inverse $g$.
I would also remark that even if there are no other cones, that still doesn't immediately imply that $i:Lto A$ is a limit, since $i:Lto A$ is still a cone and so the definition is not vacuous. The limit condition is required to hold for all cones, not just those that are different from the limiting cone.
how do you know $ig = 1_A$ is true?
– Pinocchio
Nov 19 at 1:34
That's by definition of $g$: it's the unique $g$ such that $ig=f$, for $f=1_A$.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 19 at 1:55
I see I guess that the part that needs the isomorphism between A and L. i.e. without that $g$ wouldn't exist. i.e. we choose the "other" cone $B$ to be $A$ isomorphic to $L$. Right?
– Pinocchio
Nov 19 at 1:56
I'm not sure what you mean. The argument I gave is a proof that $i:Ato L$ is an isomorphism, assuming it is a limit. So, that argument is the reason why you must have an isomorphism.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 19 at 2:05
you know what " (the isomorphism is part of the limit)" means?
– Pinocchio
Nov 20 at 4:30
|
show 13 more comments
There are lots of cones! For any object $B$, every morphism $f:Bto A$ is a cone over this diagram. So the condition for $i:L to A$ to be a limit is that for every $f:Bto A$ there exists a unique $g:Bto L$ such that $ig=f$. Taking $B=A$ and $f=1_A$ gives a morphism $g$ such that $ig=1_A$. We then have $igi=i=i1_L$ which implies $gi=1_L$ using the uniqueness condition with $f=i$. So, $i$ is an isomorphism with inverse $g$.
I would also remark that even if there are no other cones, that still doesn't immediately imply that $i:Lto A$ is a limit, since $i:Lto A$ is still a cone and so the definition is not vacuous. The limit condition is required to hold for all cones, not just those that are different from the limiting cone.
how do you know $ig = 1_A$ is true?
– Pinocchio
Nov 19 at 1:34
That's by definition of $g$: it's the unique $g$ such that $ig=f$, for $f=1_A$.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 19 at 1:55
I see I guess that the part that needs the isomorphism between A and L. i.e. without that $g$ wouldn't exist. i.e. we choose the "other" cone $B$ to be $A$ isomorphic to $L$. Right?
– Pinocchio
Nov 19 at 1:56
I'm not sure what you mean. The argument I gave is a proof that $i:Ato L$ is an isomorphism, assuming it is a limit. So, that argument is the reason why you must have an isomorphism.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 19 at 2:05
you know what " (the isomorphism is part of the limit)" means?
– Pinocchio
Nov 20 at 4:30
|
show 13 more comments
There are lots of cones! For any object $B$, every morphism $f:Bto A$ is a cone over this diagram. So the condition for $i:L to A$ to be a limit is that for every $f:Bto A$ there exists a unique $g:Bto L$ such that $ig=f$. Taking $B=A$ and $f=1_A$ gives a morphism $g$ such that $ig=1_A$. We then have $igi=i=i1_L$ which implies $gi=1_L$ using the uniqueness condition with $f=i$. So, $i$ is an isomorphism with inverse $g$.
I would also remark that even if there are no other cones, that still doesn't immediately imply that $i:Lto A$ is a limit, since $i:Lto A$ is still a cone and so the definition is not vacuous. The limit condition is required to hold for all cones, not just those that are different from the limiting cone.
There are lots of cones! For any object $B$, every morphism $f:Bto A$ is a cone over this diagram. So the condition for $i:L to A$ to be a limit is that for every $f:Bto A$ there exists a unique $g:Bto L$ such that $ig=f$. Taking $B=A$ and $f=1_A$ gives a morphism $g$ such that $ig=1_A$. We then have $igi=i=i1_L$ which implies $gi=1_L$ using the uniqueness condition with $f=i$. So, $i$ is an isomorphism with inverse $g$.
I would also remark that even if there are no other cones, that still doesn't immediately imply that $i:Lto A$ is a limit, since $i:Lto A$ is still a cone and so the definition is not vacuous. The limit condition is required to hold for all cones, not just those that are different from the limiting cone.
edited Nov 18 at 21:09
answered Nov 18 at 20:40
Eric Wofsey
179k12204331
179k12204331
how do you know $ig = 1_A$ is true?
– Pinocchio
Nov 19 at 1:34
That's by definition of $g$: it's the unique $g$ such that $ig=f$, for $f=1_A$.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 19 at 1:55
I see I guess that the part that needs the isomorphism between A and L. i.e. without that $g$ wouldn't exist. i.e. we choose the "other" cone $B$ to be $A$ isomorphic to $L$. Right?
– Pinocchio
Nov 19 at 1:56
I'm not sure what you mean. The argument I gave is a proof that $i:Ato L$ is an isomorphism, assuming it is a limit. So, that argument is the reason why you must have an isomorphism.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 19 at 2:05
you know what " (the isomorphism is part of the limit)" means?
– Pinocchio
Nov 20 at 4:30
|
show 13 more comments
how do you know $ig = 1_A$ is true?
– Pinocchio
Nov 19 at 1:34
That's by definition of $g$: it's the unique $g$ such that $ig=f$, for $f=1_A$.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 19 at 1:55
I see I guess that the part that needs the isomorphism between A and L. i.e. without that $g$ wouldn't exist. i.e. we choose the "other" cone $B$ to be $A$ isomorphic to $L$. Right?
– Pinocchio
Nov 19 at 1:56
I'm not sure what you mean. The argument I gave is a proof that $i:Ato L$ is an isomorphism, assuming it is a limit. So, that argument is the reason why you must have an isomorphism.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 19 at 2:05
you know what " (the isomorphism is part of the limit)" means?
– Pinocchio
Nov 20 at 4:30
how do you know $ig = 1_A$ is true?
– Pinocchio
Nov 19 at 1:34
how do you know $ig = 1_A$ is true?
– Pinocchio
Nov 19 at 1:34
That's by definition of $g$: it's the unique $g$ such that $ig=f$, for $f=1_A$.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 19 at 1:55
That's by definition of $g$: it's the unique $g$ such that $ig=f$, for $f=1_A$.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 19 at 1:55
I see I guess that the part that needs the isomorphism between A and L. i.e. without that $g$ wouldn't exist. i.e. we choose the "other" cone $B$ to be $A$ isomorphic to $L$. Right?
– Pinocchio
Nov 19 at 1:56
I see I guess that the part that needs the isomorphism between A and L. i.e. without that $g$ wouldn't exist. i.e. we choose the "other" cone $B$ to be $A$ isomorphic to $L$. Right?
– Pinocchio
Nov 19 at 1:56
I'm not sure what you mean. The argument I gave is a proof that $i:Ato L$ is an isomorphism, assuming it is a limit. So, that argument is the reason why you must have an isomorphism.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 19 at 2:05
I'm not sure what you mean. The argument I gave is a proof that $i:Ato L$ is an isomorphism, assuming it is a limit. So, that argument is the reason why you must have an isomorphism.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 19 at 2:05
you know what " (the isomorphism is part of the limit)" means?
– Pinocchio
Nov 20 at 4:30
you know what " (the isomorphism is part of the limit)" means?
– Pinocchio
Nov 20 at 4:30
|
show 13 more comments
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Why do you say there is no other cone? You seem to not understand the definition of a cone.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 18 at 20:34
@EricWofsey that could be true! My understanding of a cone of a diagram d is a pair $(C,{ gamma_i}_{i in V})$ such that these triangles commute with the help of an edge in the diagram i.e. $gamma_i ; d(i to j) = gamma_j$ where $gamma_j = C to d(j)$ is a morphism from the object $C$ to the object in the diagram $d(j)$.
– Pinocchio
Nov 18 at 20:39
@EricWofsey I say there is no other cone because $L$ is the only thing "pointing" to the diagram where $A$ lives.
– Pinocchio
Nov 18 at 20:40
@EricWofsey I thought the only cone in question was the one related to $L$. Did I misunderstand that paragraph?
– Pinocchio
Nov 18 at 20:41
1
In the definition of a limit, "any other" means just "any". This is quite common in math, though you will also sometimes find "any other" used to mean "any different from the one we have". The latter usage is somewhat informal and should not be used unless it is completely clear what is meant from context.
– Eric Wofsey
Nov 18 at 21:09