Fiber of Morphism between Affine Schemes
$begingroup$
My question refers to an example from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_morphism
dealing with the morphism
$$f: {displaystyle {text{Spec}}(k[t,x]/(x^{n}-t))to {text{Spec}}(k[t])}$$
of affine schemes induced by canonic inclusion
$$varphi: k[t] hookrightarrow {text{Spec}}(k[t,x]/(x^{n}-t))$$
of rings. $f$ is described as a ramified $n$-sheeted covering with only ramification at the the origin. In turn for every prime ideal $p subset k[t]$ (= point of $Spec(k[t])$) with $p neq (0)$ the fiber $f^{-1}(p)$ contains exactly $n$ points.
That is not clear to me, especially in the case that $k$ is not algebraically closed.
In my considerations I discuss two cases:
- case: $k$ is algebraically closed. Therefore every prime $p neq (0)$ has the shape $p= (t- lambda)$ for $lambda in k$. Then
$$x^n - t = prod _{j=1} ^n (x - zeta^j sqrt[n]{t})$$
and therefore
$$k[t,x]/(x^n-t) cong oplus _{j=1} ^n k[t,x]/(x-zeta^j sqrt[n]{t})$$
by CRT and we have obvoiusly exactly $n$ preimages
$$f^{-1}(p) = {q subset oplus _{j=1} ^n k[t,x]/(x-zeta^j sqrt[n]{t}) text{ } vert text{ } q cap k[t] = p } = {langle (t- lambda), (x-zeta^j sqrt[n]{t})rangle vert 1 le j le n}$$
as desired. Is this argumentation correct?
Remark: By definition for $q$ prime $f$ is defined via $f(q) = varphi^{-1}(q) = k[t] cap q$.
Now the case 2: $k$ is an arbitrary field.
Firstly, we can split $x^n-t$ in $s$ to irreducible factors $f_j in k[t,x]$ each of degree $d_i$ with $sum _{j=1} ^s d_i =n$. Using CRT as in case 1 we get the splitting
$$k[t,x]/(x^n-t) cong oplus _{j=1} ^s k[t,x]/f_j$$
Now consider an arbitrary prime ideal $p$ of $k[t]$. Since $k$ isn't algebraically closed we can't generally expect that $p$ has the shape $(t- lambda)$.
Motivated by case 1 I think that ideals $rangle p cup f_i langle $ are good candidates for preimages of $p$
since
$$q in f^{-1}(p) Leftrightarrow q cap k[t] =p$$
But here I see two problems:
Firstly: This gives only $s$ preimages but according to the example
$p$ should have exactly $n$ preimages.
Secoundly: Are $langle p cup f_i rangle $ prime? Why?
Remark: In this question I reduced a previous question of mine (Ramified Cover of Affine Scheme)
to the language of commutative algebra and trying to deduce
a formally correct argument for the statement above.
algebraic-geometry commutative-algebra
$endgroup$
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
My question refers to an example from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_morphism
dealing with the morphism
$$f: {displaystyle {text{Spec}}(k[t,x]/(x^{n}-t))to {text{Spec}}(k[t])}$$
of affine schemes induced by canonic inclusion
$$varphi: k[t] hookrightarrow {text{Spec}}(k[t,x]/(x^{n}-t))$$
of rings. $f$ is described as a ramified $n$-sheeted covering with only ramification at the the origin. In turn for every prime ideal $p subset k[t]$ (= point of $Spec(k[t])$) with $p neq (0)$ the fiber $f^{-1}(p)$ contains exactly $n$ points.
That is not clear to me, especially in the case that $k$ is not algebraically closed.
In my considerations I discuss two cases:
- case: $k$ is algebraically closed. Therefore every prime $p neq (0)$ has the shape $p= (t- lambda)$ for $lambda in k$. Then
$$x^n - t = prod _{j=1} ^n (x - zeta^j sqrt[n]{t})$$
and therefore
$$k[t,x]/(x^n-t) cong oplus _{j=1} ^n k[t,x]/(x-zeta^j sqrt[n]{t})$$
by CRT and we have obvoiusly exactly $n$ preimages
$$f^{-1}(p) = {q subset oplus _{j=1} ^n k[t,x]/(x-zeta^j sqrt[n]{t}) text{ } vert text{ } q cap k[t] = p } = {langle (t- lambda), (x-zeta^j sqrt[n]{t})rangle vert 1 le j le n}$$
as desired. Is this argumentation correct?
Remark: By definition for $q$ prime $f$ is defined via $f(q) = varphi^{-1}(q) = k[t] cap q$.
Now the case 2: $k$ is an arbitrary field.
Firstly, we can split $x^n-t$ in $s$ to irreducible factors $f_j in k[t,x]$ each of degree $d_i$ with $sum _{j=1} ^s d_i =n$. Using CRT as in case 1 we get the splitting
$$k[t,x]/(x^n-t) cong oplus _{j=1} ^s k[t,x]/f_j$$
Now consider an arbitrary prime ideal $p$ of $k[t]$. Since $k$ isn't algebraically closed we can't generally expect that $p$ has the shape $(t- lambda)$.
Motivated by case 1 I think that ideals $rangle p cup f_i langle $ are good candidates for preimages of $p$
since
$$q in f^{-1}(p) Leftrightarrow q cap k[t] =p$$
But here I see two problems:
Firstly: This gives only $s$ preimages but according to the example
$p$ should have exactly $n$ preimages.
Secoundly: Are $langle p cup f_i rangle $ prime? Why?
Remark: In this question I reduced a previous question of mine (Ramified Cover of Affine Scheme)
to the language of commutative algebra and trying to deduce
a formally correct argument for the statement above.
algebraic-geometry commutative-algebra
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
How is this question different from your previous one ? It seems also that KReiser answered it in the comment section : if $k$ is not algebraically closed, then there is not necessarily $n$ prime ideals lying above a given prime. However, if there is $g$ of then and if $f_1,...,f_g$ are the degree of their residual extensions, then $f_1+...+f_g=n$.
$endgroup$
– Roland
Dec 5 '18 at 10:18
2
$begingroup$
Think about the case of $mathbb{R}[t]to mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t)$. Then there is only one prime lying above $(t+1)$ which is $(x^2+1)$. This is a prime since $mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t,x^2+1)simeqmathbb{C}$. However the residual extension is $mathbb{R}[t]/(t+1)simeqmathbb{R}to mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t,x^2+1)simeqmathbb{C}$. So it is indeed of degree 2.
$endgroup$
– Roland
Dec 5 '18 at 10:23
$begingroup$
@Roland: I was namely quite irritated by by the the phrase "ramified $n$-sheeted covering" what I naively would interpret as a $n$-cover over all non ramified points. Especially that the number of points lying over a non ramified point is constantly $n$. So is this statement here for general field $k$ just false or should I interpret this in the theory of schemes in another way as for example for Riemann surfaces?
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 21:30
$begingroup$
If yes, how scheme theoretically a ramified covering should be interpreted? In the sense that for fixed point $p$ $n$ is the sum of degrees of field expensions $[k(q):k]$ of residual fields of all points $q$ lying over $p$ or - as in José's answer - that $f$ gives locally to the sections a free module structure of degree $n$? ...of course that would only make sense for finite morphisms
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 21:30
1
$begingroup$
For KRaiser's answer, yes he looked at the fiber over $t-t_0$. He said that this is of degree $n$ over $k$. As for the interpretation of a $n$-sheeted covering, say it is really a $n$-sheeted covering if you pass to the algebraic closure. If you don't want that, say that there really is $n$ points lying above any point of the base scheme, but they might lie in an extension. If one of them does not lie in $k$, then this point and all its conjugates are tied together to form only one prime ideal, but this should count as several points instead of one.
$endgroup$
– Roland
Dec 5 '18 at 21:51
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
My question refers to an example from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_morphism
dealing with the morphism
$$f: {displaystyle {text{Spec}}(k[t,x]/(x^{n}-t))to {text{Spec}}(k[t])}$$
of affine schemes induced by canonic inclusion
$$varphi: k[t] hookrightarrow {text{Spec}}(k[t,x]/(x^{n}-t))$$
of rings. $f$ is described as a ramified $n$-sheeted covering with only ramification at the the origin. In turn for every prime ideal $p subset k[t]$ (= point of $Spec(k[t])$) with $p neq (0)$ the fiber $f^{-1}(p)$ contains exactly $n$ points.
That is not clear to me, especially in the case that $k$ is not algebraically closed.
In my considerations I discuss two cases:
- case: $k$ is algebraically closed. Therefore every prime $p neq (0)$ has the shape $p= (t- lambda)$ for $lambda in k$. Then
$$x^n - t = prod _{j=1} ^n (x - zeta^j sqrt[n]{t})$$
and therefore
$$k[t,x]/(x^n-t) cong oplus _{j=1} ^n k[t,x]/(x-zeta^j sqrt[n]{t})$$
by CRT and we have obvoiusly exactly $n$ preimages
$$f^{-1}(p) = {q subset oplus _{j=1} ^n k[t,x]/(x-zeta^j sqrt[n]{t}) text{ } vert text{ } q cap k[t] = p } = {langle (t- lambda), (x-zeta^j sqrt[n]{t})rangle vert 1 le j le n}$$
as desired. Is this argumentation correct?
Remark: By definition for $q$ prime $f$ is defined via $f(q) = varphi^{-1}(q) = k[t] cap q$.
Now the case 2: $k$ is an arbitrary field.
Firstly, we can split $x^n-t$ in $s$ to irreducible factors $f_j in k[t,x]$ each of degree $d_i$ with $sum _{j=1} ^s d_i =n$. Using CRT as in case 1 we get the splitting
$$k[t,x]/(x^n-t) cong oplus _{j=1} ^s k[t,x]/f_j$$
Now consider an arbitrary prime ideal $p$ of $k[t]$. Since $k$ isn't algebraically closed we can't generally expect that $p$ has the shape $(t- lambda)$.
Motivated by case 1 I think that ideals $rangle p cup f_i langle $ are good candidates for preimages of $p$
since
$$q in f^{-1}(p) Leftrightarrow q cap k[t] =p$$
But here I see two problems:
Firstly: This gives only $s$ preimages but according to the example
$p$ should have exactly $n$ preimages.
Secoundly: Are $langle p cup f_i rangle $ prime? Why?
Remark: In this question I reduced a previous question of mine (Ramified Cover of Affine Scheme)
to the language of commutative algebra and trying to deduce
a formally correct argument for the statement above.
algebraic-geometry commutative-algebra
$endgroup$
My question refers to an example from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_morphism
dealing with the morphism
$$f: {displaystyle {text{Spec}}(k[t,x]/(x^{n}-t))to {text{Spec}}(k[t])}$$
of affine schemes induced by canonic inclusion
$$varphi: k[t] hookrightarrow {text{Spec}}(k[t,x]/(x^{n}-t))$$
of rings. $f$ is described as a ramified $n$-sheeted covering with only ramification at the the origin. In turn for every prime ideal $p subset k[t]$ (= point of $Spec(k[t])$) with $p neq (0)$ the fiber $f^{-1}(p)$ contains exactly $n$ points.
That is not clear to me, especially in the case that $k$ is not algebraically closed.
In my considerations I discuss two cases:
- case: $k$ is algebraically closed. Therefore every prime $p neq (0)$ has the shape $p= (t- lambda)$ for $lambda in k$. Then
$$x^n - t = prod _{j=1} ^n (x - zeta^j sqrt[n]{t})$$
and therefore
$$k[t,x]/(x^n-t) cong oplus _{j=1} ^n k[t,x]/(x-zeta^j sqrt[n]{t})$$
by CRT and we have obvoiusly exactly $n$ preimages
$$f^{-1}(p) = {q subset oplus _{j=1} ^n k[t,x]/(x-zeta^j sqrt[n]{t}) text{ } vert text{ } q cap k[t] = p } = {langle (t- lambda), (x-zeta^j sqrt[n]{t})rangle vert 1 le j le n}$$
as desired. Is this argumentation correct?
Remark: By definition for $q$ prime $f$ is defined via $f(q) = varphi^{-1}(q) = k[t] cap q$.
Now the case 2: $k$ is an arbitrary field.
Firstly, we can split $x^n-t$ in $s$ to irreducible factors $f_j in k[t,x]$ each of degree $d_i$ with $sum _{j=1} ^s d_i =n$. Using CRT as in case 1 we get the splitting
$$k[t,x]/(x^n-t) cong oplus _{j=1} ^s k[t,x]/f_j$$
Now consider an arbitrary prime ideal $p$ of $k[t]$. Since $k$ isn't algebraically closed we can't generally expect that $p$ has the shape $(t- lambda)$.
Motivated by case 1 I think that ideals $rangle p cup f_i langle $ are good candidates for preimages of $p$
since
$$q in f^{-1}(p) Leftrightarrow q cap k[t] =p$$
But here I see two problems:
Firstly: This gives only $s$ preimages but according to the example
$p$ should have exactly $n$ preimages.
Secoundly: Are $langle p cup f_i rangle $ prime? Why?
Remark: In this question I reduced a previous question of mine (Ramified Cover of Affine Scheme)
to the language of commutative algebra and trying to deduce
a formally correct argument for the statement above.
algebraic-geometry commutative-algebra
algebraic-geometry commutative-algebra
asked Dec 4 '18 at 22:58
KarlPeterKarlPeter
3561315
3561315
2
$begingroup$
How is this question different from your previous one ? It seems also that KReiser answered it in the comment section : if $k$ is not algebraically closed, then there is not necessarily $n$ prime ideals lying above a given prime. However, if there is $g$ of then and if $f_1,...,f_g$ are the degree of their residual extensions, then $f_1+...+f_g=n$.
$endgroup$
– Roland
Dec 5 '18 at 10:18
2
$begingroup$
Think about the case of $mathbb{R}[t]to mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t)$. Then there is only one prime lying above $(t+1)$ which is $(x^2+1)$. This is a prime since $mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t,x^2+1)simeqmathbb{C}$. However the residual extension is $mathbb{R}[t]/(t+1)simeqmathbb{R}to mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t,x^2+1)simeqmathbb{C}$. So it is indeed of degree 2.
$endgroup$
– Roland
Dec 5 '18 at 10:23
$begingroup$
@Roland: I was namely quite irritated by by the the phrase "ramified $n$-sheeted covering" what I naively would interpret as a $n$-cover over all non ramified points. Especially that the number of points lying over a non ramified point is constantly $n$. So is this statement here for general field $k$ just false or should I interpret this in the theory of schemes in another way as for example for Riemann surfaces?
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 21:30
$begingroup$
If yes, how scheme theoretically a ramified covering should be interpreted? In the sense that for fixed point $p$ $n$ is the sum of degrees of field expensions $[k(q):k]$ of residual fields of all points $q$ lying over $p$ or - as in José's answer - that $f$ gives locally to the sections a free module structure of degree $n$? ...of course that would only make sense for finite morphisms
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 21:30
1
$begingroup$
For KRaiser's answer, yes he looked at the fiber over $t-t_0$. He said that this is of degree $n$ over $k$. As for the interpretation of a $n$-sheeted covering, say it is really a $n$-sheeted covering if you pass to the algebraic closure. If you don't want that, say that there really is $n$ points lying above any point of the base scheme, but they might lie in an extension. If one of them does not lie in $k$, then this point and all its conjugates are tied together to form only one prime ideal, but this should count as several points instead of one.
$endgroup$
– Roland
Dec 5 '18 at 21:51
|
show 1 more comment
2
$begingroup$
How is this question different from your previous one ? It seems also that KReiser answered it in the comment section : if $k$ is not algebraically closed, then there is not necessarily $n$ prime ideals lying above a given prime. However, if there is $g$ of then and if $f_1,...,f_g$ are the degree of their residual extensions, then $f_1+...+f_g=n$.
$endgroup$
– Roland
Dec 5 '18 at 10:18
2
$begingroup$
Think about the case of $mathbb{R}[t]to mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t)$. Then there is only one prime lying above $(t+1)$ which is $(x^2+1)$. This is a prime since $mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t,x^2+1)simeqmathbb{C}$. However the residual extension is $mathbb{R}[t]/(t+1)simeqmathbb{R}to mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t,x^2+1)simeqmathbb{C}$. So it is indeed of degree 2.
$endgroup$
– Roland
Dec 5 '18 at 10:23
$begingroup$
@Roland: I was namely quite irritated by by the the phrase "ramified $n$-sheeted covering" what I naively would interpret as a $n$-cover over all non ramified points. Especially that the number of points lying over a non ramified point is constantly $n$. So is this statement here for general field $k$ just false or should I interpret this in the theory of schemes in another way as for example for Riemann surfaces?
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 21:30
$begingroup$
If yes, how scheme theoretically a ramified covering should be interpreted? In the sense that for fixed point $p$ $n$ is the sum of degrees of field expensions $[k(q):k]$ of residual fields of all points $q$ lying over $p$ or - as in José's answer - that $f$ gives locally to the sections a free module structure of degree $n$? ...of course that would only make sense for finite morphisms
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 21:30
1
$begingroup$
For KRaiser's answer, yes he looked at the fiber over $t-t_0$. He said that this is of degree $n$ over $k$. As for the interpretation of a $n$-sheeted covering, say it is really a $n$-sheeted covering if you pass to the algebraic closure. If you don't want that, say that there really is $n$ points lying above any point of the base scheme, but they might lie in an extension. If one of them does not lie in $k$, then this point and all its conjugates are tied together to form only one prime ideal, but this should count as several points instead of one.
$endgroup$
– Roland
Dec 5 '18 at 21:51
2
2
$begingroup$
How is this question different from your previous one ? It seems also that KReiser answered it in the comment section : if $k$ is not algebraically closed, then there is not necessarily $n$ prime ideals lying above a given prime. However, if there is $g$ of then and if $f_1,...,f_g$ are the degree of their residual extensions, then $f_1+...+f_g=n$.
$endgroup$
– Roland
Dec 5 '18 at 10:18
$begingroup$
How is this question different from your previous one ? It seems also that KReiser answered it in the comment section : if $k$ is not algebraically closed, then there is not necessarily $n$ prime ideals lying above a given prime. However, if there is $g$ of then and if $f_1,...,f_g$ are the degree of their residual extensions, then $f_1+...+f_g=n$.
$endgroup$
– Roland
Dec 5 '18 at 10:18
2
2
$begingroup$
Think about the case of $mathbb{R}[t]to mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t)$. Then there is only one prime lying above $(t+1)$ which is $(x^2+1)$. This is a prime since $mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t,x^2+1)simeqmathbb{C}$. However the residual extension is $mathbb{R}[t]/(t+1)simeqmathbb{R}to mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t,x^2+1)simeqmathbb{C}$. So it is indeed of degree 2.
$endgroup$
– Roland
Dec 5 '18 at 10:23
$begingroup$
Think about the case of $mathbb{R}[t]to mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t)$. Then there is only one prime lying above $(t+1)$ which is $(x^2+1)$. This is a prime since $mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t,x^2+1)simeqmathbb{C}$. However the residual extension is $mathbb{R}[t]/(t+1)simeqmathbb{R}to mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t,x^2+1)simeqmathbb{C}$. So it is indeed of degree 2.
$endgroup$
– Roland
Dec 5 '18 at 10:23
$begingroup$
@Roland: I was namely quite irritated by by the the phrase "ramified $n$-sheeted covering" what I naively would interpret as a $n$-cover over all non ramified points. Especially that the number of points lying over a non ramified point is constantly $n$. So is this statement here for general field $k$ just false or should I interpret this in the theory of schemes in another way as for example for Riemann surfaces?
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 21:30
$begingroup$
@Roland: I was namely quite irritated by by the the phrase "ramified $n$-sheeted covering" what I naively would interpret as a $n$-cover over all non ramified points. Especially that the number of points lying over a non ramified point is constantly $n$. So is this statement here for general field $k$ just false or should I interpret this in the theory of schemes in another way as for example for Riemann surfaces?
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 21:30
$begingroup$
If yes, how scheme theoretically a ramified covering should be interpreted? In the sense that for fixed point $p$ $n$ is the sum of degrees of field expensions $[k(q):k]$ of residual fields of all points $q$ lying over $p$ or - as in José's answer - that $f$ gives locally to the sections a free module structure of degree $n$? ...of course that would only make sense for finite morphisms
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 21:30
$begingroup$
If yes, how scheme theoretically a ramified covering should be interpreted? In the sense that for fixed point $p$ $n$ is the sum of degrees of field expensions $[k(q):k]$ of residual fields of all points $q$ lying over $p$ or - as in José's answer - that $f$ gives locally to the sections a free module structure of degree $n$? ...of course that would only make sense for finite morphisms
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 21:30
1
1
$begingroup$
For KRaiser's answer, yes he looked at the fiber over $t-t_0$. He said that this is of degree $n$ over $k$. As for the interpretation of a $n$-sheeted covering, say it is really a $n$-sheeted covering if you pass to the algebraic closure. If you don't want that, say that there really is $n$ points lying above any point of the base scheme, but they might lie in an extension. If one of them does not lie in $k$, then this point and all its conjugates are tied together to form only one prime ideal, but this should count as several points instead of one.
$endgroup$
– Roland
Dec 5 '18 at 21:51
$begingroup$
For KRaiser's answer, yes he looked at the fiber over $t-t_0$. He said that this is of degree $n$ over $k$. As for the interpretation of a $n$-sheeted covering, say it is really a $n$-sheeted covering if you pass to the algebraic closure. If you don't want that, say that there really is $n$ points lying above any point of the base scheme, but they might lie in an extension. If one of them does not lie in $k$, then this point and all its conjugates are tied together to form only one prime ideal, but this should count as several points instead of one.
$endgroup$
– Roland
Dec 5 '18 at 21:51
|
show 1 more comment
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Well, in that example, it is obvious that $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$ is isomorphic to $k[t]oplus k[t]xopluscdotsoplus k[t]x^{n-1}$ as $k[t]$-modules. That is all you need.
Remember the definition in Hartshorne: $f:Xto Y$ is a finite morphism if there is an affine covering of $Y$, write $Y=bigcup U_i$, with $U_isimeq mbox{Spec} B_i$ such that $f^{-1}(U_i)=mbox{Spec}(A_i)$ with $A_i$ a f.g. $B_i$-module.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Yes, the fact that $k[t,x]/(t-x^n) cong k[t]oplus k[t]xopluscdotsoplus k[t]x^{n-1}$ as $k[t]$-module just states the fact that $f$ is a finite morphism. My problem is to calculate here the order of the fiber $f^{-1}(p)$ for a prime $p$, therefore the number of primes $q$ in $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$ with $p = f(q) = varphi^{-1}(q) = k[t] cap q$. And I think that for the determination of these preimages one should interpret $varphi$ as a ring map as well as a $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$, since considering it only as $k[t]$- module it makes not really sense to talk about prime ideals $q$.
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 2:14
$begingroup$
Or did I missunderstood your thoughts? If yes, what would here exactly the preimage of a prime $p$ wrt $f$?
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 2:15
$begingroup$
aaah, okay. But, I'm agree with you, I think that if the field is not alg closed, it is not true. Have you tried in a very simple case like the field with 2 (or 3) elements?
$endgroup$
– José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
Dec 5 '18 at 21:58
$begingroup$
and the characteristic dividing (or being rel. prime with) the $n$
$endgroup$
– José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
Dec 5 '18 at 21:58
1
$begingroup$
Yes, that is wrong, see @Roland's example above. Futhermore I think that base change to algebraic closure as Roland also explained indeed seem to provide a good interpretation of ramified n -sheeting in ag
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 22:11
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$begingroup$
Well, in that example, it is obvious that $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$ is isomorphic to $k[t]oplus k[t]xopluscdotsoplus k[t]x^{n-1}$ as $k[t]$-modules. That is all you need.
Remember the definition in Hartshorne: $f:Xto Y$ is a finite morphism if there is an affine covering of $Y$, write $Y=bigcup U_i$, with $U_isimeq mbox{Spec} B_i$ such that $f^{-1}(U_i)=mbox{Spec}(A_i)$ with $A_i$ a f.g. $B_i$-module.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Yes, the fact that $k[t,x]/(t-x^n) cong k[t]oplus k[t]xopluscdotsoplus k[t]x^{n-1}$ as $k[t]$-module just states the fact that $f$ is a finite morphism. My problem is to calculate here the order of the fiber $f^{-1}(p)$ for a prime $p$, therefore the number of primes $q$ in $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$ with $p = f(q) = varphi^{-1}(q) = k[t] cap q$. And I think that for the determination of these preimages one should interpret $varphi$ as a ring map as well as a $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$, since considering it only as $k[t]$- module it makes not really sense to talk about prime ideals $q$.
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 2:14
$begingroup$
Or did I missunderstood your thoughts? If yes, what would here exactly the preimage of a prime $p$ wrt $f$?
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 2:15
$begingroup$
aaah, okay. But, I'm agree with you, I think that if the field is not alg closed, it is not true. Have you tried in a very simple case like the field with 2 (or 3) elements?
$endgroup$
– José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
Dec 5 '18 at 21:58
$begingroup$
and the characteristic dividing (or being rel. prime with) the $n$
$endgroup$
– José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
Dec 5 '18 at 21:58
1
$begingroup$
Yes, that is wrong, see @Roland's example above. Futhermore I think that base change to algebraic closure as Roland also explained indeed seem to provide a good interpretation of ramified n -sheeting in ag
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 22:11
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Well, in that example, it is obvious that $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$ is isomorphic to $k[t]oplus k[t]xopluscdotsoplus k[t]x^{n-1}$ as $k[t]$-modules. That is all you need.
Remember the definition in Hartshorne: $f:Xto Y$ is a finite morphism if there is an affine covering of $Y$, write $Y=bigcup U_i$, with $U_isimeq mbox{Spec} B_i$ such that $f^{-1}(U_i)=mbox{Spec}(A_i)$ with $A_i$ a f.g. $B_i$-module.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Yes, the fact that $k[t,x]/(t-x^n) cong k[t]oplus k[t]xopluscdotsoplus k[t]x^{n-1}$ as $k[t]$-module just states the fact that $f$ is a finite morphism. My problem is to calculate here the order of the fiber $f^{-1}(p)$ for a prime $p$, therefore the number of primes $q$ in $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$ with $p = f(q) = varphi^{-1}(q) = k[t] cap q$. And I think that for the determination of these preimages one should interpret $varphi$ as a ring map as well as a $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$, since considering it only as $k[t]$- module it makes not really sense to talk about prime ideals $q$.
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 2:14
$begingroup$
Or did I missunderstood your thoughts? If yes, what would here exactly the preimage of a prime $p$ wrt $f$?
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 2:15
$begingroup$
aaah, okay. But, I'm agree with you, I think that if the field is not alg closed, it is not true. Have you tried in a very simple case like the field with 2 (or 3) elements?
$endgroup$
– José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
Dec 5 '18 at 21:58
$begingroup$
and the characteristic dividing (or being rel. prime with) the $n$
$endgroup$
– José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
Dec 5 '18 at 21:58
1
$begingroup$
Yes, that is wrong, see @Roland's example above. Futhermore I think that base change to algebraic closure as Roland also explained indeed seem to provide a good interpretation of ramified n -sheeting in ag
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 22:11
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Well, in that example, it is obvious that $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$ is isomorphic to $k[t]oplus k[t]xopluscdotsoplus k[t]x^{n-1}$ as $k[t]$-modules. That is all you need.
Remember the definition in Hartshorne: $f:Xto Y$ is a finite morphism if there is an affine covering of $Y$, write $Y=bigcup U_i$, with $U_isimeq mbox{Spec} B_i$ such that $f^{-1}(U_i)=mbox{Spec}(A_i)$ with $A_i$ a f.g. $B_i$-module.
$endgroup$
Well, in that example, it is obvious that $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$ is isomorphic to $k[t]oplus k[t]xopluscdotsoplus k[t]x^{n-1}$ as $k[t]$-modules. That is all you need.
Remember the definition in Hartshorne: $f:Xto Y$ is a finite morphism if there is an affine covering of $Y$, write $Y=bigcup U_i$, with $U_isimeq mbox{Spec} B_i$ such that $f^{-1}(U_i)=mbox{Spec}(A_i)$ with $A_i$ a f.g. $B_i$-module.
answered Dec 5 '18 at 1:13
José Alejandro Aburto AranedaJosé Alejandro Aburto Araneda
802110
802110
$begingroup$
Yes, the fact that $k[t,x]/(t-x^n) cong k[t]oplus k[t]xopluscdotsoplus k[t]x^{n-1}$ as $k[t]$-module just states the fact that $f$ is a finite morphism. My problem is to calculate here the order of the fiber $f^{-1}(p)$ for a prime $p$, therefore the number of primes $q$ in $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$ with $p = f(q) = varphi^{-1}(q) = k[t] cap q$. And I think that for the determination of these preimages one should interpret $varphi$ as a ring map as well as a $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$, since considering it only as $k[t]$- module it makes not really sense to talk about prime ideals $q$.
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 2:14
$begingroup$
Or did I missunderstood your thoughts? If yes, what would here exactly the preimage of a prime $p$ wrt $f$?
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 2:15
$begingroup$
aaah, okay. But, I'm agree with you, I think that if the field is not alg closed, it is not true. Have you tried in a very simple case like the field with 2 (or 3) elements?
$endgroup$
– José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
Dec 5 '18 at 21:58
$begingroup$
and the characteristic dividing (or being rel. prime with) the $n$
$endgroup$
– José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
Dec 5 '18 at 21:58
1
$begingroup$
Yes, that is wrong, see @Roland's example above. Futhermore I think that base change to algebraic closure as Roland also explained indeed seem to provide a good interpretation of ramified n -sheeting in ag
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 22:11
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Yes, the fact that $k[t,x]/(t-x^n) cong k[t]oplus k[t]xopluscdotsoplus k[t]x^{n-1}$ as $k[t]$-module just states the fact that $f$ is a finite morphism. My problem is to calculate here the order of the fiber $f^{-1}(p)$ for a prime $p$, therefore the number of primes $q$ in $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$ with $p = f(q) = varphi^{-1}(q) = k[t] cap q$. And I think that for the determination of these preimages one should interpret $varphi$ as a ring map as well as a $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$, since considering it only as $k[t]$- module it makes not really sense to talk about prime ideals $q$.
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 2:14
$begingroup$
Or did I missunderstood your thoughts? If yes, what would here exactly the preimage of a prime $p$ wrt $f$?
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 2:15
$begingroup$
aaah, okay. But, I'm agree with you, I think that if the field is not alg closed, it is not true. Have you tried in a very simple case like the field with 2 (or 3) elements?
$endgroup$
– José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
Dec 5 '18 at 21:58
$begingroup$
and the characteristic dividing (or being rel. prime with) the $n$
$endgroup$
– José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
Dec 5 '18 at 21:58
1
$begingroup$
Yes, that is wrong, see @Roland's example above. Futhermore I think that base change to algebraic closure as Roland also explained indeed seem to provide a good interpretation of ramified n -sheeting in ag
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 22:11
$begingroup$
Yes, the fact that $k[t,x]/(t-x^n) cong k[t]oplus k[t]xopluscdotsoplus k[t]x^{n-1}$ as $k[t]$-module just states the fact that $f$ is a finite morphism. My problem is to calculate here the order of the fiber $f^{-1}(p)$ for a prime $p$, therefore the number of primes $q$ in $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$ with $p = f(q) = varphi^{-1}(q) = k[t] cap q$. And I think that for the determination of these preimages one should interpret $varphi$ as a ring map as well as a $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$, since considering it only as $k[t]$- module it makes not really sense to talk about prime ideals $q$.
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 2:14
$begingroup$
Yes, the fact that $k[t,x]/(t-x^n) cong k[t]oplus k[t]xopluscdotsoplus k[t]x^{n-1}$ as $k[t]$-module just states the fact that $f$ is a finite morphism. My problem is to calculate here the order of the fiber $f^{-1}(p)$ for a prime $p$, therefore the number of primes $q$ in $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$ with $p = f(q) = varphi^{-1}(q) = k[t] cap q$. And I think that for the determination of these preimages one should interpret $varphi$ as a ring map as well as a $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$, since considering it only as $k[t]$- module it makes not really sense to talk about prime ideals $q$.
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 2:14
$begingroup$
Or did I missunderstood your thoughts? If yes, what would here exactly the preimage of a prime $p$ wrt $f$?
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 2:15
$begingroup$
Or did I missunderstood your thoughts? If yes, what would here exactly the preimage of a prime $p$ wrt $f$?
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 2:15
$begingroup$
aaah, okay. But, I'm agree with you, I think that if the field is not alg closed, it is not true. Have you tried in a very simple case like the field with 2 (or 3) elements?
$endgroup$
– José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
Dec 5 '18 at 21:58
$begingroup$
aaah, okay. But, I'm agree with you, I think that if the field is not alg closed, it is not true. Have you tried in a very simple case like the field with 2 (or 3) elements?
$endgroup$
– José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
Dec 5 '18 at 21:58
$begingroup$
and the characteristic dividing (or being rel. prime with) the $n$
$endgroup$
– José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
Dec 5 '18 at 21:58
$begingroup$
and the characteristic dividing (or being rel. prime with) the $n$
$endgroup$
– José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
Dec 5 '18 at 21:58
1
1
$begingroup$
Yes, that is wrong, see @Roland's example above. Futhermore I think that base change to algebraic closure as Roland also explained indeed seem to provide a good interpretation of ramified n -sheeting in ag
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 22:11
$begingroup$
Yes, that is wrong, see @Roland's example above. Futhermore I think that base change to algebraic closure as Roland also explained indeed seem to provide a good interpretation of ramified n -sheeting in ag
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 22:11
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How is this question different from your previous one ? It seems also that KReiser answered it in the comment section : if $k$ is not algebraically closed, then there is not necessarily $n$ prime ideals lying above a given prime. However, if there is $g$ of then and if $f_1,...,f_g$ are the degree of their residual extensions, then $f_1+...+f_g=n$.
$endgroup$
– Roland
Dec 5 '18 at 10:18
2
$begingroup$
Think about the case of $mathbb{R}[t]to mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t)$. Then there is only one prime lying above $(t+1)$ which is $(x^2+1)$. This is a prime since $mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t,x^2+1)simeqmathbb{C}$. However the residual extension is $mathbb{R}[t]/(t+1)simeqmathbb{R}to mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t,x^2+1)simeqmathbb{C}$. So it is indeed of degree 2.
$endgroup$
– Roland
Dec 5 '18 at 10:23
$begingroup$
@Roland: I was namely quite irritated by by the the phrase "ramified $n$-sheeted covering" what I naively would interpret as a $n$-cover over all non ramified points. Especially that the number of points lying over a non ramified point is constantly $n$. So is this statement here for general field $k$ just false or should I interpret this in the theory of schemes in another way as for example for Riemann surfaces?
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 21:30
$begingroup$
If yes, how scheme theoretically a ramified covering should be interpreted? In the sense that for fixed point $p$ $n$ is the sum of degrees of field expensions $[k(q):k]$ of residual fields of all points $q$ lying over $p$ or - as in José's answer - that $f$ gives locally to the sections a free module structure of degree $n$? ...of course that would only make sense for finite morphisms
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 21:30
1
$begingroup$
For KRaiser's answer, yes he looked at the fiber over $t-t_0$. He said that this is of degree $n$ over $k$. As for the interpretation of a $n$-sheeted covering, say it is really a $n$-sheeted covering if you pass to the algebraic closure. If you don't want that, say that there really is $n$ points lying above any point of the base scheme, but they might lie in an extension. If one of them does not lie in $k$, then this point and all its conjugates are tied together to form only one prime ideal, but this should count as several points instead of one.
$endgroup$
– Roland
Dec 5 '18 at 21:51