Fiber of Morphism between Affine Schemes












0












$begingroup$


My question refers to an example from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_morphism
dealing with the morphism



$$f: {displaystyle {text{Spec}}(k[t,x]/(x^{n}-t))to {text{Spec}}(k[t])}$$



of affine schemes induced by canonic inclusion



$$varphi: k[t] hookrightarrow {text{Spec}}(k[t,x]/(x^{n}-t))$$



of rings. $f$ is described as a ramified $n$-sheeted covering with only ramification at the the origin. In turn for every prime ideal $p subset k[t]$ (= point of $Spec(k[t])$) with $p neq (0)$ the fiber $f^{-1}(p)$ contains exactly $n$ points.



That is not clear to me, especially in the case that $k$ is not algebraically closed.



In my considerations I discuss two cases:




  1. case: $k$ is algebraically closed. Therefore every prime $p neq (0)$ has the shape $p= (t- lambda)$ for $lambda in k$. Then
    $$x^n - t = prod _{j=1} ^n (x - zeta^j sqrt[n]{t})$$


and therefore



$$k[t,x]/(x^n-t) cong oplus _{j=1} ^n k[t,x]/(x-zeta^j sqrt[n]{t})$$



by CRT and we have obvoiusly exactly $n$ preimages



$$f^{-1}(p) = {q subset oplus _{j=1} ^n k[t,x]/(x-zeta^j sqrt[n]{t}) text{ } vert text{ } q cap k[t] = p } = {langle (t- lambda), (x-zeta^j sqrt[n]{t})rangle vert 1 le j le n}$$



as desired. Is this argumentation correct?



Remark: By definition for $q$ prime $f$ is defined via $f(q) = varphi^{-1}(q) = k[t] cap q$.



Now the case 2: $k$ is an arbitrary field.



Firstly, we can split $x^n-t$ in $s$ to irreducible factors $f_j in k[t,x]$ each of degree $d_i$ with $sum _{j=1} ^s d_i =n$. Using CRT as in case 1 we get the splitting



$$k[t,x]/(x^n-t) cong oplus _{j=1} ^s k[t,x]/f_j$$



Now consider an arbitrary prime ideal $p$ of $k[t]$. Since $k$ isn't algebraically closed we can't generally expect that $p$ has the shape $(t- lambda)$.
Motivated by case 1 I think that ideals $rangle p cup f_i langle $ are good candidates for preimages of $p$
since



$$q in f^{-1}(p) Leftrightarrow q cap k[t] =p$$



But here I see two problems:



Firstly: This gives only $s$ preimages but according to the example
$p$ should have exactly $n$ preimages.



Secoundly: Are $langle p cup f_i rangle $ prime? Why?



Remark: In this question I reduced a previous question of mine (Ramified Cover of Affine Scheme)
to the language of commutative algebra and trying to deduce
a formally correct argument for the statement above.










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    How is this question different from your previous one ? It seems also that KReiser answered it in the comment section : if $k$ is not algebraically closed, then there is not necessarily $n$ prime ideals lying above a given prime. However, if there is $g$ of then and if $f_1,...,f_g$ are the degree of their residual extensions, then $f_1+...+f_g=n$.
    $endgroup$
    – Roland
    Dec 5 '18 at 10:18






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Think about the case of $mathbb{R}[t]to mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t)$. Then there is only one prime lying above $(t+1)$ which is $(x^2+1)$. This is a prime since $mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t,x^2+1)simeqmathbb{C}$. However the residual extension is $mathbb{R}[t]/(t+1)simeqmathbb{R}to mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t,x^2+1)simeqmathbb{C}$. So it is indeed of degree 2.
    $endgroup$
    – Roland
    Dec 5 '18 at 10:23












  • $begingroup$
    @Roland: I was namely quite irritated by by the the phrase "ramified $n$-sheeted covering" what I naively would interpret as a $n$-cover over all non ramified points. Especially that the number of points lying over a non ramified point is constantly $n$. So is this statement here for general field $k$ just false or should I interpret this in the theory of schemes in another way as for example for Riemann surfaces?
    $endgroup$
    – KarlPeter
    Dec 5 '18 at 21:30










  • $begingroup$
    If yes, how scheme theoretically a ramified covering should be interpreted? In the sense that for fixed point $p$ $n$ is the sum of degrees of field expensions $[k(q):k]$ of residual fields of all points $q$ lying over $p$ or - as in José's answer - that $f$ gives locally to the sections a free module structure of degree $n$? ...of course that would only make sense for finite morphisms
    $endgroup$
    – KarlPeter
    Dec 5 '18 at 21:30








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    For KRaiser's answer, yes he looked at the fiber over $t-t_0$. He said that this is of degree $n$ over $k$. As for the interpretation of a $n$-sheeted covering, say it is really a $n$-sheeted covering if you pass to the algebraic closure. If you don't want that, say that there really is $n$ points lying above any point of the base scheme, but they might lie in an extension. If one of them does not lie in $k$, then this point and all its conjugates are tied together to form only one prime ideal, but this should count as several points instead of one.
    $endgroup$
    – Roland
    Dec 5 '18 at 21:51


















0












$begingroup$


My question refers to an example from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_morphism
dealing with the morphism



$$f: {displaystyle {text{Spec}}(k[t,x]/(x^{n}-t))to {text{Spec}}(k[t])}$$



of affine schemes induced by canonic inclusion



$$varphi: k[t] hookrightarrow {text{Spec}}(k[t,x]/(x^{n}-t))$$



of rings. $f$ is described as a ramified $n$-sheeted covering with only ramification at the the origin. In turn for every prime ideal $p subset k[t]$ (= point of $Spec(k[t])$) with $p neq (0)$ the fiber $f^{-1}(p)$ contains exactly $n$ points.



That is not clear to me, especially in the case that $k$ is not algebraically closed.



In my considerations I discuss two cases:




  1. case: $k$ is algebraically closed. Therefore every prime $p neq (0)$ has the shape $p= (t- lambda)$ for $lambda in k$. Then
    $$x^n - t = prod _{j=1} ^n (x - zeta^j sqrt[n]{t})$$


and therefore



$$k[t,x]/(x^n-t) cong oplus _{j=1} ^n k[t,x]/(x-zeta^j sqrt[n]{t})$$



by CRT and we have obvoiusly exactly $n$ preimages



$$f^{-1}(p) = {q subset oplus _{j=1} ^n k[t,x]/(x-zeta^j sqrt[n]{t}) text{ } vert text{ } q cap k[t] = p } = {langle (t- lambda), (x-zeta^j sqrt[n]{t})rangle vert 1 le j le n}$$



as desired. Is this argumentation correct?



Remark: By definition for $q$ prime $f$ is defined via $f(q) = varphi^{-1}(q) = k[t] cap q$.



Now the case 2: $k$ is an arbitrary field.



Firstly, we can split $x^n-t$ in $s$ to irreducible factors $f_j in k[t,x]$ each of degree $d_i$ with $sum _{j=1} ^s d_i =n$. Using CRT as in case 1 we get the splitting



$$k[t,x]/(x^n-t) cong oplus _{j=1} ^s k[t,x]/f_j$$



Now consider an arbitrary prime ideal $p$ of $k[t]$. Since $k$ isn't algebraically closed we can't generally expect that $p$ has the shape $(t- lambda)$.
Motivated by case 1 I think that ideals $rangle p cup f_i langle $ are good candidates for preimages of $p$
since



$$q in f^{-1}(p) Leftrightarrow q cap k[t] =p$$



But here I see two problems:



Firstly: This gives only $s$ preimages but according to the example
$p$ should have exactly $n$ preimages.



Secoundly: Are $langle p cup f_i rangle $ prime? Why?



Remark: In this question I reduced a previous question of mine (Ramified Cover of Affine Scheme)
to the language of commutative algebra and trying to deduce
a formally correct argument for the statement above.










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    How is this question different from your previous one ? It seems also that KReiser answered it in the comment section : if $k$ is not algebraically closed, then there is not necessarily $n$ prime ideals lying above a given prime. However, if there is $g$ of then and if $f_1,...,f_g$ are the degree of their residual extensions, then $f_1+...+f_g=n$.
    $endgroup$
    – Roland
    Dec 5 '18 at 10:18






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Think about the case of $mathbb{R}[t]to mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t)$. Then there is only one prime lying above $(t+1)$ which is $(x^2+1)$. This is a prime since $mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t,x^2+1)simeqmathbb{C}$. However the residual extension is $mathbb{R}[t]/(t+1)simeqmathbb{R}to mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t,x^2+1)simeqmathbb{C}$. So it is indeed of degree 2.
    $endgroup$
    – Roland
    Dec 5 '18 at 10:23












  • $begingroup$
    @Roland: I was namely quite irritated by by the the phrase "ramified $n$-sheeted covering" what I naively would interpret as a $n$-cover over all non ramified points. Especially that the number of points lying over a non ramified point is constantly $n$. So is this statement here for general field $k$ just false or should I interpret this in the theory of schemes in another way as for example for Riemann surfaces?
    $endgroup$
    – KarlPeter
    Dec 5 '18 at 21:30










  • $begingroup$
    If yes, how scheme theoretically a ramified covering should be interpreted? In the sense that for fixed point $p$ $n$ is the sum of degrees of field expensions $[k(q):k]$ of residual fields of all points $q$ lying over $p$ or - as in José's answer - that $f$ gives locally to the sections a free module structure of degree $n$? ...of course that would only make sense for finite morphisms
    $endgroup$
    – KarlPeter
    Dec 5 '18 at 21:30








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    For KRaiser's answer, yes he looked at the fiber over $t-t_0$. He said that this is of degree $n$ over $k$. As for the interpretation of a $n$-sheeted covering, say it is really a $n$-sheeted covering if you pass to the algebraic closure. If you don't want that, say that there really is $n$ points lying above any point of the base scheme, but they might lie in an extension. If one of them does not lie in $k$, then this point and all its conjugates are tied together to form only one prime ideal, but this should count as several points instead of one.
    $endgroup$
    – Roland
    Dec 5 '18 at 21:51
















0












0








0





$begingroup$


My question refers to an example from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_morphism
dealing with the morphism



$$f: {displaystyle {text{Spec}}(k[t,x]/(x^{n}-t))to {text{Spec}}(k[t])}$$



of affine schemes induced by canonic inclusion



$$varphi: k[t] hookrightarrow {text{Spec}}(k[t,x]/(x^{n}-t))$$



of rings. $f$ is described as a ramified $n$-sheeted covering with only ramification at the the origin. In turn for every prime ideal $p subset k[t]$ (= point of $Spec(k[t])$) with $p neq (0)$ the fiber $f^{-1}(p)$ contains exactly $n$ points.



That is not clear to me, especially in the case that $k$ is not algebraically closed.



In my considerations I discuss two cases:




  1. case: $k$ is algebraically closed. Therefore every prime $p neq (0)$ has the shape $p= (t- lambda)$ for $lambda in k$. Then
    $$x^n - t = prod _{j=1} ^n (x - zeta^j sqrt[n]{t})$$


and therefore



$$k[t,x]/(x^n-t) cong oplus _{j=1} ^n k[t,x]/(x-zeta^j sqrt[n]{t})$$



by CRT and we have obvoiusly exactly $n$ preimages



$$f^{-1}(p) = {q subset oplus _{j=1} ^n k[t,x]/(x-zeta^j sqrt[n]{t}) text{ } vert text{ } q cap k[t] = p } = {langle (t- lambda), (x-zeta^j sqrt[n]{t})rangle vert 1 le j le n}$$



as desired. Is this argumentation correct?



Remark: By definition for $q$ prime $f$ is defined via $f(q) = varphi^{-1}(q) = k[t] cap q$.



Now the case 2: $k$ is an arbitrary field.



Firstly, we can split $x^n-t$ in $s$ to irreducible factors $f_j in k[t,x]$ each of degree $d_i$ with $sum _{j=1} ^s d_i =n$. Using CRT as in case 1 we get the splitting



$$k[t,x]/(x^n-t) cong oplus _{j=1} ^s k[t,x]/f_j$$



Now consider an arbitrary prime ideal $p$ of $k[t]$. Since $k$ isn't algebraically closed we can't generally expect that $p$ has the shape $(t- lambda)$.
Motivated by case 1 I think that ideals $rangle p cup f_i langle $ are good candidates for preimages of $p$
since



$$q in f^{-1}(p) Leftrightarrow q cap k[t] =p$$



But here I see two problems:



Firstly: This gives only $s$ preimages but according to the example
$p$ should have exactly $n$ preimages.



Secoundly: Are $langle p cup f_i rangle $ prime? Why?



Remark: In this question I reduced a previous question of mine (Ramified Cover of Affine Scheme)
to the language of commutative algebra and trying to deduce
a formally correct argument for the statement above.










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$




My question refers to an example from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_morphism
dealing with the morphism



$$f: {displaystyle {text{Spec}}(k[t,x]/(x^{n}-t))to {text{Spec}}(k[t])}$$



of affine schemes induced by canonic inclusion



$$varphi: k[t] hookrightarrow {text{Spec}}(k[t,x]/(x^{n}-t))$$



of rings. $f$ is described as a ramified $n$-sheeted covering with only ramification at the the origin. In turn for every prime ideal $p subset k[t]$ (= point of $Spec(k[t])$) with $p neq (0)$ the fiber $f^{-1}(p)$ contains exactly $n$ points.



That is not clear to me, especially in the case that $k$ is not algebraically closed.



In my considerations I discuss two cases:




  1. case: $k$ is algebraically closed. Therefore every prime $p neq (0)$ has the shape $p= (t- lambda)$ for $lambda in k$. Then
    $$x^n - t = prod _{j=1} ^n (x - zeta^j sqrt[n]{t})$$


and therefore



$$k[t,x]/(x^n-t) cong oplus _{j=1} ^n k[t,x]/(x-zeta^j sqrt[n]{t})$$



by CRT and we have obvoiusly exactly $n$ preimages



$$f^{-1}(p) = {q subset oplus _{j=1} ^n k[t,x]/(x-zeta^j sqrt[n]{t}) text{ } vert text{ } q cap k[t] = p } = {langle (t- lambda), (x-zeta^j sqrt[n]{t})rangle vert 1 le j le n}$$



as desired. Is this argumentation correct?



Remark: By definition for $q$ prime $f$ is defined via $f(q) = varphi^{-1}(q) = k[t] cap q$.



Now the case 2: $k$ is an arbitrary field.



Firstly, we can split $x^n-t$ in $s$ to irreducible factors $f_j in k[t,x]$ each of degree $d_i$ with $sum _{j=1} ^s d_i =n$. Using CRT as in case 1 we get the splitting



$$k[t,x]/(x^n-t) cong oplus _{j=1} ^s k[t,x]/f_j$$



Now consider an arbitrary prime ideal $p$ of $k[t]$. Since $k$ isn't algebraically closed we can't generally expect that $p$ has the shape $(t- lambda)$.
Motivated by case 1 I think that ideals $rangle p cup f_i langle $ are good candidates for preimages of $p$
since



$$q in f^{-1}(p) Leftrightarrow q cap k[t] =p$$



But here I see two problems:



Firstly: This gives only $s$ preimages but according to the example
$p$ should have exactly $n$ preimages.



Secoundly: Are $langle p cup f_i rangle $ prime? Why?



Remark: In this question I reduced a previous question of mine (Ramified Cover of Affine Scheme)
to the language of commutative algebra and trying to deduce
a formally correct argument for the statement above.







algebraic-geometry commutative-algebra






share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question











share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question










asked Dec 4 '18 at 22:58









KarlPeterKarlPeter

3561315




3561315








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    How is this question different from your previous one ? It seems also that KReiser answered it in the comment section : if $k$ is not algebraically closed, then there is not necessarily $n$ prime ideals lying above a given prime. However, if there is $g$ of then and if $f_1,...,f_g$ are the degree of their residual extensions, then $f_1+...+f_g=n$.
    $endgroup$
    – Roland
    Dec 5 '18 at 10:18






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Think about the case of $mathbb{R}[t]to mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t)$. Then there is only one prime lying above $(t+1)$ which is $(x^2+1)$. This is a prime since $mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t,x^2+1)simeqmathbb{C}$. However the residual extension is $mathbb{R}[t]/(t+1)simeqmathbb{R}to mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t,x^2+1)simeqmathbb{C}$. So it is indeed of degree 2.
    $endgroup$
    – Roland
    Dec 5 '18 at 10:23












  • $begingroup$
    @Roland: I was namely quite irritated by by the the phrase "ramified $n$-sheeted covering" what I naively would interpret as a $n$-cover over all non ramified points. Especially that the number of points lying over a non ramified point is constantly $n$. So is this statement here for general field $k$ just false or should I interpret this in the theory of schemes in another way as for example for Riemann surfaces?
    $endgroup$
    – KarlPeter
    Dec 5 '18 at 21:30










  • $begingroup$
    If yes, how scheme theoretically a ramified covering should be interpreted? In the sense that for fixed point $p$ $n$ is the sum of degrees of field expensions $[k(q):k]$ of residual fields of all points $q$ lying over $p$ or - as in José's answer - that $f$ gives locally to the sections a free module structure of degree $n$? ...of course that would only make sense for finite morphisms
    $endgroup$
    – KarlPeter
    Dec 5 '18 at 21:30








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    For KRaiser's answer, yes he looked at the fiber over $t-t_0$. He said that this is of degree $n$ over $k$. As for the interpretation of a $n$-sheeted covering, say it is really a $n$-sheeted covering if you pass to the algebraic closure. If you don't want that, say that there really is $n$ points lying above any point of the base scheme, but they might lie in an extension. If one of them does not lie in $k$, then this point and all its conjugates are tied together to form only one prime ideal, but this should count as several points instead of one.
    $endgroup$
    – Roland
    Dec 5 '18 at 21:51
















  • 2




    $begingroup$
    How is this question different from your previous one ? It seems also that KReiser answered it in the comment section : if $k$ is not algebraically closed, then there is not necessarily $n$ prime ideals lying above a given prime. However, if there is $g$ of then and if $f_1,...,f_g$ are the degree of their residual extensions, then $f_1+...+f_g=n$.
    $endgroup$
    – Roland
    Dec 5 '18 at 10:18






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Think about the case of $mathbb{R}[t]to mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t)$. Then there is only one prime lying above $(t+1)$ which is $(x^2+1)$. This is a prime since $mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t,x^2+1)simeqmathbb{C}$. However the residual extension is $mathbb{R}[t]/(t+1)simeqmathbb{R}to mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t,x^2+1)simeqmathbb{C}$. So it is indeed of degree 2.
    $endgroup$
    – Roland
    Dec 5 '18 at 10:23












  • $begingroup$
    @Roland: I was namely quite irritated by by the the phrase "ramified $n$-sheeted covering" what I naively would interpret as a $n$-cover over all non ramified points. Especially that the number of points lying over a non ramified point is constantly $n$. So is this statement here for general field $k$ just false or should I interpret this in the theory of schemes in another way as for example for Riemann surfaces?
    $endgroup$
    – KarlPeter
    Dec 5 '18 at 21:30










  • $begingroup$
    If yes, how scheme theoretically a ramified covering should be interpreted? In the sense that for fixed point $p$ $n$ is the sum of degrees of field expensions $[k(q):k]$ of residual fields of all points $q$ lying over $p$ or - as in José's answer - that $f$ gives locally to the sections a free module structure of degree $n$? ...of course that would only make sense for finite morphisms
    $endgroup$
    – KarlPeter
    Dec 5 '18 at 21:30








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    For KRaiser's answer, yes he looked at the fiber over $t-t_0$. He said that this is of degree $n$ over $k$. As for the interpretation of a $n$-sheeted covering, say it is really a $n$-sheeted covering if you pass to the algebraic closure. If you don't want that, say that there really is $n$ points lying above any point of the base scheme, but they might lie in an extension. If one of them does not lie in $k$, then this point and all its conjugates are tied together to form only one prime ideal, but this should count as several points instead of one.
    $endgroup$
    – Roland
    Dec 5 '18 at 21:51










2




2




$begingroup$
How is this question different from your previous one ? It seems also that KReiser answered it in the comment section : if $k$ is not algebraically closed, then there is not necessarily $n$ prime ideals lying above a given prime. However, if there is $g$ of then and if $f_1,...,f_g$ are the degree of their residual extensions, then $f_1+...+f_g=n$.
$endgroup$
– Roland
Dec 5 '18 at 10:18




$begingroup$
How is this question different from your previous one ? It seems also that KReiser answered it in the comment section : if $k$ is not algebraically closed, then there is not necessarily $n$ prime ideals lying above a given prime. However, if there is $g$ of then and if $f_1,...,f_g$ are the degree of their residual extensions, then $f_1+...+f_g=n$.
$endgroup$
– Roland
Dec 5 '18 at 10:18




2




2




$begingroup$
Think about the case of $mathbb{R}[t]to mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t)$. Then there is only one prime lying above $(t+1)$ which is $(x^2+1)$. This is a prime since $mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t,x^2+1)simeqmathbb{C}$. However the residual extension is $mathbb{R}[t]/(t+1)simeqmathbb{R}to mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t,x^2+1)simeqmathbb{C}$. So it is indeed of degree 2.
$endgroup$
– Roland
Dec 5 '18 at 10:23






$begingroup$
Think about the case of $mathbb{R}[t]to mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t)$. Then there is only one prime lying above $(t+1)$ which is $(x^2+1)$. This is a prime since $mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t,x^2+1)simeqmathbb{C}$. However the residual extension is $mathbb{R}[t]/(t+1)simeqmathbb{R}to mathbb{R}[t,x]/(x^2-t,x^2+1)simeqmathbb{C}$. So it is indeed of degree 2.
$endgroup$
– Roland
Dec 5 '18 at 10:23














$begingroup$
@Roland: I was namely quite irritated by by the the phrase "ramified $n$-sheeted covering" what I naively would interpret as a $n$-cover over all non ramified points. Especially that the number of points lying over a non ramified point is constantly $n$. So is this statement here for general field $k$ just false or should I interpret this in the theory of schemes in another way as for example for Riemann surfaces?
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 21:30




$begingroup$
@Roland: I was namely quite irritated by by the the phrase "ramified $n$-sheeted covering" what I naively would interpret as a $n$-cover over all non ramified points. Especially that the number of points lying over a non ramified point is constantly $n$. So is this statement here for general field $k$ just false or should I interpret this in the theory of schemes in another way as for example for Riemann surfaces?
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 21:30












$begingroup$
If yes, how scheme theoretically a ramified covering should be interpreted? In the sense that for fixed point $p$ $n$ is the sum of degrees of field expensions $[k(q):k]$ of residual fields of all points $q$ lying over $p$ or - as in José's answer - that $f$ gives locally to the sections a free module structure of degree $n$? ...of course that would only make sense for finite morphisms
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 21:30






$begingroup$
If yes, how scheme theoretically a ramified covering should be interpreted? In the sense that for fixed point $p$ $n$ is the sum of degrees of field expensions $[k(q):k]$ of residual fields of all points $q$ lying over $p$ or - as in José's answer - that $f$ gives locally to the sections a free module structure of degree $n$? ...of course that would only make sense for finite morphisms
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 21:30






1




1




$begingroup$
For KRaiser's answer, yes he looked at the fiber over $t-t_0$. He said that this is of degree $n$ over $k$. As for the interpretation of a $n$-sheeted covering, say it is really a $n$-sheeted covering if you pass to the algebraic closure. If you don't want that, say that there really is $n$ points lying above any point of the base scheme, but they might lie in an extension. If one of them does not lie in $k$, then this point and all its conjugates are tied together to form only one prime ideal, but this should count as several points instead of one.
$endgroup$
– Roland
Dec 5 '18 at 21:51






$begingroup$
For KRaiser's answer, yes he looked at the fiber over $t-t_0$. He said that this is of degree $n$ over $k$. As for the interpretation of a $n$-sheeted covering, say it is really a $n$-sheeted covering if you pass to the algebraic closure. If you don't want that, say that there really is $n$ points lying above any point of the base scheme, but they might lie in an extension. If one of them does not lie in $k$, then this point and all its conjugates are tied together to form only one prime ideal, but this should count as several points instead of one.
$endgroup$
– Roland
Dec 5 '18 at 21:51












1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















0












$begingroup$

Well, in that example, it is obvious that $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$ is isomorphic to $k[t]oplus k[t]xopluscdotsoplus k[t]x^{n-1}$ as $k[t]$-modules. That is all you need.



Remember the definition in Hartshorne: $f:Xto Y$ is a finite morphism if there is an affine covering of $Y$, write $Y=bigcup U_i$, with $U_isimeq mbox{Spec} B_i$ such that $f^{-1}(U_i)=mbox{Spec}(A_i)$ with $A_i$ a f.g. $B_i$-module.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Yes, the fact that $k[t,x]/(t-x^n) cong k[t]oplus k[t]xopluscdotsoplus k[t]x^{n-1}$ as $k[t]$-module just states the fact that $f$ is a finite morphism. My problem is to calculate here the order of the fiber $f^{-1}(p)$ for a prime $p$, therefore the number of primes $q$ in $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$ with $p = f(q) = varphi^{-1}(q) = k[t] cap q$. And I think that for the determination of these preimages one should interpret $varphi$ as a ring map as well as a $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$, since considering it only as $k[t]$- module it makes not really sense to talk about prime ideals $q$.
    $endgroup$
    – KarlPeter
    Dec 5 '18 at 2:14












  • $begingroup$
    Or did I missunderstood your thoughts? If yes, what would here exactly the preimage of a prime $p$ wrt $f$?
    $endgroup$
    – KarlPeter
    Dec 5 '18 at 2:15










  • $begingroup$
    aaah, okay. But, I'm agree with you, I think that if the field is not alg closed, it is not true. Have you tried in a very simple case like the field with 2 (or 3) elements?
    $endgroup$
    – José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
    Dec 5 '18 at 21:58










  • $begingroup$
    and the characteristic dividing (or being rel. prime with) the $n$
    $endgroup$
    – José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
    Dec 5 '18 at 21:58






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Yes, that is wrong, see @Roland's example above. Futhermore I think that base change to algebraic closure as Roland also explained indeed seem to provide a good interpretation of ramified n -sheeting in ag
    $endgroup$
    – KarlPeter
    Dec 5 '18 at 22:11











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$begingroup$

Well, in that example, it is obvious that $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$ is isomorphic to $k[t]oplus k[t]xopluscdotsoplus k[t]x^{n-1}$ as $k[t]$-modules. That is all you need.



Remember the definition in Hartshorne: $f:Xto Y$ is a finite morphism if there is an affine covering of $Y$, write $Y=bigcup U_i$, with $U_isimeq mbox{Spec} B_i$ such that $f^{-1}(U_i)=mbox{Spec}(A_i)$ with $A_i$ a f.g. $B_i$-module.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Yes, the fact that $k[t,x]/(t-x^n) cong k[t]oplus k[t]xopluscdotsoplus k[t]x^{n-1}$ as $k[t]$-module just states the fact that $f$ is a finite morphism. My problem is to calculate here the order of the fiber $f^{-1}(p)$ for a prime $p$, therefore the number of primes $q$ in $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$ with $p = f(q) = varphi^{-1}(q) = k[t] cap q$. And I think that for the determination of these preimages one should interpret $varphi$ as a ring map as well as a $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$, since considering it only as $k[t]$- module it makes not really sense to talk about prime ideals $q$.
    $endgroup$
    – KarlPeter
    Dec 5 '18 at 2:14












  • $begingroup$
    Or did I missunderstood your thoughts? If yes, what would here exactly the preimage of a prime $p$ wrt $f$?
    $endgroup$
    – KarlPeter
    Dec 5 '18 at 2:15










  • $begingroup$
    aaah, okay. But, I'm agree with you, I think that if the field is not alg closed, it is not true. Have you tried in a very simple case like the field with 2 (or 3) elements?
    $endgroup$
    – José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
    Dec 5 '18 at 21:58










  • $begingroup$
    and the characteristic dividing (or being rel. prime with) the $n$
    $endgroup$
    – José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
    Dec 5 '18 at 21:58






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Yes, that is wrong, see @Roland's example above. Futhermore I think that base change to algebraic closure as Roland also explained indeed seem to provide a good interpretation of ramified n -sheeting in ag
    $endgroup$
    – KarlPeter
    Dec 5 '18 at 22:11
















0












$begingroup$

Well, in that example, it is obvious that $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$ is isomorphic to $k[t]oplus k[t]xopluscdotsoplus k[t]x^{n-1}$ as $k[t]$-modules. That is all you need.



Remember the definition in Hartshorne: $f:Xto Y$ is a finite morphism if there is an affine covering of $Y$, write $Y=bigcup U_i$, with $U_isimeq mbox{Spec} B_i$ such that $f^{-1}(U_i)=mbox{Spec}(A_i)$ with $A_i$ a f.g. $B_i$-module.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Yes, the fact that $k[t,x]/(t-x^n) cong k[t]oplus k[t]xopluscdotsoplus k[t]x^{n-1}$ as $k[t]$-module just states the fact that $f$ is a finite morphism. My problem is to calculate here the order of the fiber $f^{-1}(p)$ for a prime $p$, therefore the number of primes $q$ in $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$ with $p = f(q) = varphi^{-1}(q) = k[t] cap q$. And I think that for the determination of these preimages one should interpret $varphi$ as a ring map as well as a $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$, since considering it only as $k[t]$- module it makes not really sense to talk about prime ideals $q$.
    $endgroup$
    – KarlPeter
    Dec 5 '18 at 2:14












  • $begingroup$
    Or did I missunderstood your thoughts? If yes, what would here exactly the preimage of a prime $p$ wrt $f$?
    $endgroup$
    – KarlPeter
    Dec 5 '18 at 2:15










  • $begingroup$
    aaah, okay. But, I'm agree with you, I think that if the field is not alg closed, it is not true. Have you tried in a very simple case like the field with 2 (or 3) elements?
    $endgroup$
    – José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
    Dec 5 '18 at 21:58










  • $begingroup$
    and the characteristic dividing (or being rel. prime with) the $n$
    $endgroup$
    – José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
    Dec 5 '18 at 21:58






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Yes, that is wrong, see @Roland's example above. Futhermore I think that base change to algebraic closure as Roland also explained indeed seem to provide a good interpretation of ramified n -sheeting in ag
    $endgroup$
    – KarlPeter
    Dec 5 '18 at 22:11














0












0








0





$begingroup$

Well, in that example, it is obvious that $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$ is isomorphic to $k[t]oplus k[t]xopluscdotsoplus k[t]x^{n-1}$ as $k[t]$-modules. That is all you need.



Remember the definition in Hartshorne: $f:Xto Y$ is a finite morphism if there is an affine covering of $Y$, write $Y=bigcup U_i$, with $U_isimeq mbox{Spec} B_i$ such that $f^{-1}(U_i)=mbox{Spec}(A_i)$ with $A_i$ a f.g. $B_i$-module.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$



Well, in that example, it is obvious that $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$ is isomorphic to $k[t]oplus k[t]xopluscdotsoplus k[t]x^{n-1}$ as $k[t]$-modules. That is all you need.



Remember the definition in Hartshorne: $f:Xto Y$ is a finite morphism if there is an affine covering of $Y$, write $Y=bigcup U_i$, with $U_isimeq mbox{Spec} B_i$ such that $f^{-1}(U_i)=mbox{Spec}(A_i)$ with $A_i$ a f.g. $B_i$-module.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered Dec 5 '18 at 1:13









José Alejandro Aburto AranedaJosé Alejandro Aburto Araneda

802110




802110












  • $begingroup$
    Yes, the fact that $k[t,x]/(t-x^n) cong k[t]oplus k[t]xopluscdotsoplus k[t]x^{n-1}$ as $k[t]$-module just states the fact that $f$ is a finite morphism. My problem is to calculate here the order of the fiber $f^{-1}(p)$ for a prime $p$, therefore the number of primes $q$ in $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$ with $p = f(q) = varphi^{-1}(q) = k[t] cap q$. And I think that for the determination of these preimages one should interpret $varphi$ as a ring map as well as a $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$, since considering it only as $k[t]$- module it makes not really sense to talk about prime ideals $q$.
    $endgroup$
    – KarlPeter
    Dec 5 '18 at 2:14












  • $begingroup$
    Or did I missunderstood your thoughts? If yes, what would here exactly the preimage of a prime $p$ wrt $f$?
    $endgroup$
    – KarlPeter
    Dec 5 '18 at 2:15










  • $begingroup$
    aaah, okay. But, I'm agree with you, I think that if the field is not alg closed, it is not true. Have you tried in a very simple case like the field with 2 (or 3) elements?
    $endgroup$
    – José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
    Dec 5 '18 at 21:58










  • $begingroup$
    and the characteristic dividing (or being rel. prime with) the $n$
    $endgroup$
    – José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
    Dec 5 '18 at 21:58






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Yes, that is wrong, see @Roland's example above. Futhermore I think that base change to algebraic closure as Roland also explained indeed seem to provide a good interpretation of ramified n -sheeting in ag
    $endgroup$
    – KarlPeter
    Dec 5 '18 at 22:11


















  • $begingroup$
    Yes, the fact that $k[t,x]/(t-x^n) cong k[t]oplus k[t]xopluscdotsoplus k[t]x^{n-1}$ as $k[t]$-module just states the fact that $f$ is a finite morphism. My problem is to calculate here the order of the fiber $f^{-1}(p)$ for a prime $p$, therefore the number of primes $q$ in $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$ with $p = f(q) = varphi^{-1}(q) = k[t] cap q$. And I think that for the determination of these preimages one should interpret $varphi$ as a ring map as well as a $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$, since considering it only as $k[t]$- module it makes not really sense to talk about prime ideals $q$.
    $endgroup$
    – KarlPeter
    Dec 5 '18 at 2:14












  • $begingroup$
    Or did I missunderstood your thoughts? If yes, what would here exactly the preimage of a prime $p$ wrt $f$?
    $endgroup$
    – KarlPeter
    Dec 5 '18 at 2:15










  • $begingroup$
    aaah, okay. But, I'm agree with you, I think that if the field is not alg closed, it is not true. Have you tried in a very simple case like the field with 2 (or 3) elements?
    $endgroup$
    – José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
    Dec 5 '18 at 21:58










  • $begingroup$
    and the characteristic dividing (or being rel. prime with) the $n$
    $endgroup$
    – José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
    Dec 5 '18 at 21:58






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Yes, that is wrong, see @Roland's example above. Futhermore I think that base change to algebraic closure as Roland also explained indeed seem to provide a good interpretation of ramified n -sheeting in ag
    $endgroup$
    – KarlPeter
    Dec 5 '18 at 22:11
















$begingroup$
Yes, the fact that $k[t,x]/(t-x^n) cong k[t]oplus k[t]xopluscdotsoplus k[t]x^{n-1}$ as $k[t]$-module just states the fact that $f$ is a finite morphism. My problem is to calculate here the order of the fiber $f^{-1}(p)$ for a prime $p$, therefore the number of primes $q$ in $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$ with $p = f(q) = varphi^{-1}(q) = k[t] cap q$. And I think that for the determination of these preimages one should interpret $varphi$ as a ring map as well as a $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$, since considering it only as $k[t]$- module it makes not really sense to talk about prime ideals $q$.
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 2:14






$begingroup$
Yes, the fact that $k[t,x]/(t-x^n) cong k[t]oplus k[t]xopluscdotsoplus k[t]x^{n-1}$ as $k[t]$-module just states the fact that $f$ is a finite morphism. My problem is to calculate here the order of the fiber $f^{-1}(p)$ for a prime $p$, therefore the number of primes $q$ in $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$ with $p = f(q) = varphi^{-1}(q) = k[t] cap q$. And I think that for the determination of these preimages one should interpret $varphi$ as a ring map as well as a $k[t,x]/(t-x^n)$, since considering it only as $k[t]$- module it makes not really sense to talk about prime ideals $q$.
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 2:14














$begingroup$
Or did I missunderstood your thoughts? If yes, what would here exactly the preimage of a prime $p$ wrt $f$?
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 2:15




$begingroup$
Or did I missunderstood your thoughts? If yes, what would here exactly the preimage of a prime $p$ wrt $f$?
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 2:15












$begingroup$
aaah, okay. But, I'm agree with you, I think that if the field is not alg closed, it is not true. Have you tried in a very simple case like the field with 2 (or 3) elements?
$endgroup$
– José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
Dec 5 '18 at 21:58




$begingroup$
aaah, okay. But, I'm agree with you, I think that if the field is not alg closed, it is not true. Have you tried in a very simple case like the field with 2 (or 3) elements?
$endgroup$
– José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
Dec 5 '18 at 21:58












$begingroup$
and the characteristic dividing (or being rel. prime with) the $n$
$endgroup$
– José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
Dec 5 '18 at 21:58




$begingroup$
and the characteristic dividing (or being rel. prime with) the $n$
$endgroup$
– José Alejandro Aburto Araneda
Dec 5 '18 at 21:58




1




1




$begingroup$
Yes, that is wrong, see @Roland's example above. Futhermore I think that base change to algebraic closure as Roland also explained indeed seem to provide a good interpretation of ramified n -sheeting in ag
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 22:11




$begingroup$
Yes, that is wrong, see @Roland's example above. Futhermore I think that base change to algebraic closure as Roland also explained indeed seem to provide a good interpretation of ramified n -sheeting in ag
$endgroup$
– KarlPeter
Dec 5 '18 at 22:11


















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