Ex.1.7 Jech “Set Theory”. (The shortest proof)
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
There is an exercise on page 14 in the Tomas Jech's "Set Theory":
Every nonempty $X subseteq mathbb{N}$ has an $in$-minimal element.
[Pick $n in X$ and look at $X cap n$.]
and there is a good solution written by the user egreg: https://math.stackexchange.com/a/1526646/251394 . (We deal with the intersection of all elements of the set.)
This proof has a lot of inductions. For example, we need to prove trichotomy. And induction itself is not yet proved.
That is strange because other theorems nearby (1.1-1.6 and 1.8-1.9) are very easy, relatively to 1.7.
Could you please suggest a shorter proof?
p.s. We also can use the regularity axiom, but it is not fair.
p.p.s. I think, it is sufficient to show that $bigcap X in X$. (Then proof by contradiction: assume $sin X cap bigcap X$, so $sin X$ and $forall min X.sin m$, which means that $sin s$, so there is a contradiction by ex.1.5)
set-theory
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
There is an exercise on page 14 in the Tomas Jech's "Set Theory":
Every nonempty $X subseteq mathbb{N}$ has an $in$-minimal element.
[Pick $n in X$ and look at $X cap n$.]
and there is a good solution written by the user egreg: https://math.stackexchange.com/a/1526646/251394 . (We deal with the intersection of all elements of the set.)
This proof has a lot of inductions. For example, we need to prove trichotomy. And induction itself is not yet proved.
That is strange because other theorems nearby (1.1-1.6 and 1.8-1.9) are very easy, relatively to 1.7.
Could you please suggest a shorter proof?
p.s. We also can use the regularity axiom, but it is not fair.
p.p.s. I think, it is sufficient to show that $bigcap X in X$. (Then proof by contradiction: assume $sin X cap bigcap X$, so $sin X$ and $forall min X.sin m$, which means that $sin s$, so there is a contradiction by ex.1.5)
set-theory
What is Jech's definition of $Bbb N$?
– DanielWainfleet
Nov 12 at 15:14
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
There is an exercise on page 14 in the Tomas Jech's "Set Theory":
Every nonempty $X subseteq mathbb{N}$ has an $in$-minimal element.
[Pick $n in X$ and look at $X cap n$.]
and there is a good solution written by the user egreg: https://math.stackexchange.com/a/1526646/251394 . (We deal with the intersection of all elements of the set.)
This proof has a lot of inductions. For example, we need to prove trichotomy. And induction itself is not yet proved.
That is strange because other theorems nearby (1.1-1.6 and 1.8-1.9) are very easy, relatively to 1.7.
Could you please suggest a shorter proof?
p.s. We also can use the regularity axiom, but it is not fair.
p.p.s. I think, it is sufficient to show that $bigcap X in X$. (Then proof by contradiction: assume $sin X cap bigcap X$, so $sin X$ and $forall min X.sin m$, which means that $sin s$, so there is a contradiction by ex.1.5)
set-theory
There is an exercise on page 14 in the Tomas Jech's "Set Theory":
Every nonempty $X subseteq mathbb{N}$ has an $in$-minimal element.
[Pick $n in X$ and look at $X cap n$.]
and there is a good solution written by the user egreg: https://math.stackexchange.com/a/1526646/251394 . (We deal with the intersection of all elements of the set.)
This proof has a lot of inductions. For example, we need to prove trichotomy. And induction itself is not yet proved.
That is strange because other theorems nearby (1.1-1.6 and 1.8-1.9) are very easy, relatively to 1.7.
Could you please suggest a shorter proof?
p.s. We also can use the regularity axiom, but it is not fair.
p.p.s. I think, it is sufficient to show that $bigcap X in X$. (Then proof by contradiction: assume $sin X cap bigcap X$, so $sin X$ and $forall min X.sin m$, which means that $sin s$, so there is a contradiction by ex.1.5)
set-theory
set-theory
edited Nov 11 at 21:00
Andrés E. Caicedo
64.1k8157242
64.1k8157242
asked Nov 11 at 20:32
ged
333113
333113
What is Jech's definition of $Bbb N$?
– DanielWainfleet
Nov 12 at 15:14
add a comment |
What is Jech's definition of $Bbb N$?
– DanielWainfleet
Nov 12 at 15:14
What is Jech's definition of $Bbb N$?
– DanielWainfleet
Nov 12 at 15:14
What is Jech's definition of $Bbb N$?
– DanielWainfleet
Nov 12 at 15:14
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
up vote
1
down vote
accepted
By exercise 1.6 you have that for every element $n$ of $mathbb{N}$, if $zsubseteq n$ is not empty, then has a $in$-minimal element. So, you have two cases
$Xcap n=emptyset$: In this case $n$ is a $in$-minimal element of $X$
$Xcap nneqemptyset$: As $Xcap nsubseteq n$ then exists a $in$-minimal element $min Xcap n$. So, $m$ is $in$-minimal in $X$ too.
(Edited: in the last sentence of the second case we use ex.1.4, which states that every natural number is transitive.)
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
1
down vote
accepted
By exercise 1.6 you have that for every element $n$ of $mathbb{N}$, if $zsubseteq n$ is not empty, then has a $in$-minimal element. So, you have two cases
$Xcap n=emptyset$: In this case $n$ is a $in$-minimal element of $X$
$Xcap nneqemptyset$: As $Xcap nsubseteq n$ then exists a $in$-minimal element $min Xcap n$. So, $m$ is $in$-minimal in $X$ too.
(Edited: in the last sentence of the second case we use ex.1.4, which states that every natural number is transitive.)
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
accepted
By exercise 1.6 you have that for every element $n$ of $mathbb{N}$, if $zsubseteq n$ is not empty, then has a $in$-minimal element. So, you have two cases
$Xcap n=emptyset$: In this case $n$ is a $in$-minimal element of $X$
$Xcap nneqemptyset$: As $Xcap nsubseteq n$ then exists a $in$-minimal element $min Xcap n$. So, $m$ is $in$-minimal in $X$ too.
(Edited: in the last sentence of the second case we use ex.1.4, which states that every natural number is transitive.)
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
accepted
up vote
1
down vote
accepted
By exercise 1.6 you have that for every element $n$ of $mathbb{N}$, if $zsubseteq n$ is not empty, then has a $in$-minimal element. So, you have two cases
$Xcap n=emptyset$: In this case $n$ is a $in$-minimal element of $X$
$Xcap nneqemptyset$: As $Xcap nsubseteq n$ then exists a $in$-minimal element $min Xcap n$. So, $m$ is $in$-minimal in $X$ too.
(Edited: in the last sentence of the second case we use ex.1.4, which states that every natural number is transitive.)
By exercise 1.6 you have that for every element $n$ of $mathbb{N}$, if $zsubseteq n$ is not empty, then has a $in$-minimal element. So, you have two cases
$Xcap n=emptyset$: In this case $n$ is a $in$-minimal element of $X$
$Xcap nneqemptyset$: As $Xcap nsubseteq n$ then exists a $in$-minimal element $min Xcap n$. So, $m$ is $in$-minimal in $X$ too.
(Edited: in the last sentence of the second case we use ex.1.4, which states that every natural number is transitive.)
edited Nov 12 at 16:05
ged
333113
333113
answered Nov 11 at 21:52
Gödel
1,317319
1,317319
add a comment |
add a comment |
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f2994411%2fex-1-7-jech-set-theory-the-shortest-proof%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
What is Jech's definition of $Bbb N$?
– DanielWainfleet
Nov 12 at 15:14