What are the rules for a Tetartoid pentagon?
The tetartoid (also tetragonal pentagonal dodecahedron, pentagon-tritetrahedron, and tetrahedric pentagon dodecahedron) is a dodecahedron with chiral tetrahedral symmetry. It has twelve identical pentagonal faces. It has edges of the form a b b c c. The pentagon itself can be completely determined by the sides b&c and the angles bb bc cc. The last side and other two angles are then determined. But that doesn't not ensure the tetartoid can be built.
What are the rules for a tetartoid pentagon?
As mentioned below, I managed to solve this. Choose numbers $0le ale ble c$. Calculate
$n = a^2 c - b c^2 ,$
$d_1 = a^2 - a b + b^2 + a c - 2 b c ,$
$d_2 = a^2 + a b + b^2 - a c - 2 b c .$
Then, if $n times d_1 times d_2 ne 0$,
$$((a, b, c),(-a, -b, c),(-n, -n, n)/d_1, (-c, -a, b),(-n, n, n)/d_2)$$
gives a tetartoid pentagon which can be multiplied by the tetrahedral group to give the full figure.
I've put together a Mathematica Demonstration for this, The Tetartoid.
geometry polygons polyhedra
|
show 1 more comment
The tetartoid (also tetragonal pentagonal dodecahedron, pentagon-tritetrahedron, and tetrahedric pentagon dodecahedron) is a dodecahedron with chiral tetrahedral symmetry. It has twelve identical pentagonal faces. It has edges of the form a b b c c. The pentagon itself can be completely determined by the sides b&c and the angles bb bc cc. The last side and other two angles are then determined. But that doesn't not ensure the tetartoid can be built.
What are the rules for a tetartoid pentagon?
As mentioned below, I managed to solve this. Choose numbers $0le ale ble c$. Calculate
$n = a^2 c - b c^2 ,$
$d_1 = a^2 - a b + b^2 + a c - 2 b c ,$
$d_2 = a^2 + a b + b^2 - a c - 2 b c .$
Then, if $n times d_1 times d_2 ne 0$,
$$((a, b, c),(-a, -b, c),(-n, -n, n)/d_1, (-c, -a, b),(-n, n, n)/d_2)$$
gives a tetartoid pentagon which can be multiplied by the tetrahedral group to give the full figure.
I've put together a Mathematica Demonstration for this, The Tetartoid.
geometry polygons polyhedra
What does "rules" mean? What would be the "rules" for a cube for example?
– Zev Chonoles
Aug 11 '15 at 16:36
For a cube, you need a quadrilateral with all sides equal and all angles equal -- a square. 8 copies of any triangle can be used to make an octahedron. 4 copies of any acute triangle can make a tetrahedron.
– Ed Pegg
Aug 11 '15 at 16:54
At a first glance I'd say the only condition is that the sum of the angles concurring at a same vertex must not exceed 360°.
– Aretino
Aug 11 '15 at 21:56
That means that angles bb and cc must be less than 120° each, but their sum must be more than 180°.
– Aretino
Aug 12 '15 at 11:13
I was wrong: some more constraint is needed.
– Aretino
Aug 12 '15 at 19:31
|
show 1 more comment
The tetartoid (also tetragonal pentagonal dodecahedron, pentagon-tritetrahedron, and tetrahedric pentagon dodecahedron) is a dodecahedron with chiral tetrahedral symmetry. It has twelve identical pentagonal faces. It has edges of the form a b b c c. The pentagon itself can be completely determined by the sides b&c and the angles bb bc cc. The last side and other two angles are then determined. But that doesn't not ensure the tetartoid can be built.
What are the rules for a tetartoid pentagon?
As mentioned below, I managed to solve this. Choose numbers $0le ale ble c$. Calculate
$n = a^2 c - b c^2 ,$
$d_1 = a^2 - a b + b^2 + a c - 2 b c ,$
$d_2 = a^2 + a b + b^2 - a c - 2 b c .$
Then, if $n times d_1 times d_2 ne 0$,
$$((a, b, c),(-a, -b, c),(-n, -n, n)/d_1, (-c, -a, b),(-n, n, n)/d_2)$$
gives a tetartoid pentagon which can be multiplied by the tetrahedral group to give the full figure.
I've put together a Mathematica Demonstration for this, The Tetartoid.
geometry polygons polyhedra
The tetartoid (also tetragonal pentagonal dodecahedron, pentagon-tritetrahedron, and tetrahedric pentagon dodecahedron) is a dodecahedron with chiral tetrahedral symmetry. It has twelve identical pentagonal faces. It has edges of the form a b b c c. The pentagon itself can be completely determined by the sides b&c and the angles bb bc cc. The last side and other two angles are then determined. But that doesn't not ensure the tetartoid can be built.
What are the rules for a tetartoid pentagon?
As mentioned below, I managed to solve this. Choose numbers $0le ale ble c$. Calculate
$n = a^2 c - b c^2 ,$
$d_1 = a^2 - a b + b^2 + a c - 2 b c ,$
$d_2 = a^2 + a b + b^2 - a c - 2 b c .$
Then, if $n times d_1 times d_2 ne 0$,
$$((a, b, c),(-a, -b, c),(-n, -n, n)/d_1, (-c, -a, b),(-n, n, n)/d_2)$$
gives a tetartoid pentagon which can be multiplied by the tetrahedral group to give the full figure.
I've put together a Mathematica Demonstration for this, The Tetartoid.
geometry polygons polyhedra
geometry polygons polyhedra
edited Aug 18 '15 at 13:47
Ed Pegg
asked Aug 11 '15 at 16:30
Ed PeggEd Pegg
9,77232592
9,77232592
What does "rules" mean? What would be the "rules" for a cube for example?
– Zev Chonoles
Aug 11 '15 at 16:36
For a cube, you need a quadrilateral with all sides equal and all angles equal -- a square. 8 copies of any triangle can be used to make an octahedron. 4 copies of any acute triangle can make a tetrahedron.
– Ed Pegg
Aug 11 '15 at 16:54
At a first glance I'd say the only condition is that the sum of the angles concurring at a same vertex must not exceed 360°.
– Aretino
Aug 11 '15 at 21:56
That means that angles bb and cc must be less than 120° each, but their sum must be more than 180°.
– Aretino
Aug 12 '15 at 11:13
I was wrong: some more constraint is needed.
– Aretino
Aug 12 '15 at 19:31
|
show 1 more comment
What does "rules" mean? What would be the "rules" for a cube for example?
– Zev Chonoles
Aug 11 '15 at 16:36
For a cube, you need a quadrilateral with all sides equal and all angles equal -- a square. 8 copies of any triangle can be used to make an octahedron. 4 copies of any acute triangle can make a tetrahedron.
– Ed Pegg
Aug 11 '15 at 16:54
At a first glance I'd say the only condition is that the sum of the angles concurring at a same vertex must not exceed 360°.
– Aretino
Aug 11 '15 at 21:56
That means that angles bb and cc must be less than 120° each, but their sum must be more than 180°.
– Aretino
Aug 12 '15 at 11:13
I was wrong: some more constraint is needed.
– Aretino
Aug 12 '15 at 19:31
What does "rules" mean? What would be the "rules" for a cube for example?
– Zev Chonoles
Aug 11 '15 at 16:36
What does "rules" mean? What would be the "rules" for a cube for example?
– Zev Chonoles
Aug 11 '15 at 16:36
For a cube, you need a quadrilateral with all sides equal and all angles equal -- a square. 8 copies of any triangle can be used to make an octahedron. 4 copies of any acute triangle can make a tetrahedron.
– Ed Pegg
Aug 11 '15 at 16:54
For a cube, you need a quadrilateral with all sides equal and all angles equal -- a square. 8 copies of any triangle can be used to make an octahedron. 4 copies of any acute triangle can make a tetrahedron.
– Ed Pegg
Aug 11 '15 at 16:54
At a first glance I'd say the only condition is that the sum of the angles concurring at a same vertex must not exceed 360°.
– Aretino
Aug 11 '15 at 21:56
At a first glance I'd say the only condition is that the sum of the angles concurring at a same vertex must not exceed 360°.
– Aretino
Aug 11 '15 at 21:56
That means that angles bb and cc must be less than 120° each, but their sum must be more than 180°.
– Aretino
Aug 12 '15 at 11:13
That means that angles bb and cc must be less than 120° each, but their sum must be more than 180°.
– Aretino
Aug 12 '15 at 11:13
I was wrong: some more constraint is needed.
– Aretino
Aug 12 '15 at 19:31
I was wrong: some more constraint is needed.
– Aretino
Aug 12 '15 at 19:31
|
show 1 more comment
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
As explained in this page a tetartoid can be built starting from a tetrahedron, as follows. Take a tetrahedron of unit edges and vertices $V_1$, $V_2$, $V_3$ and $V_4$. Upon every edge $V_iV_j$ construct two points $P_{ij}$ and $P_{ji}$ having a fixed distance $s$ from $V_i$ and $V_j$ respectively ($0le sle1/2$). Join the center $C_{ijk}$ of every face $V_iV_jV_k$ (vertices taken counterclockwise) with $P_{ij}$, $P_{jk}$ and $P_{ki}$, so that every face is divided into three quadrilaterals (12 of them in the whole tetrahedron).
But notice that every quadrilateral $C_{ijk}P_{ij}V_jP_{jk}$ can be also seen as a degenerate pentagon $C_{ijk}P_{ij}P_{ji}V_jP_{jk}$, because vertex $P_{ji}$ lies between $P_{ij}$ and $V_j$.
Let now $O$ be the tetrahedron center and consider the six planes $OV_iV_j$ passing through the center and each edge. From point $P_{ij}$ draw the perpendicular line to $OV_iV_j$ and take on it a point $Q_{ij}$ such that $P_{ij}Q_{ij}=t$, where $t$ is another fixed parameter. Do the same for $P_{ji}$ but choose point $Q_{ji}$ so that it lies on the opposite side of the edge $V_iV_j$ with respect to $Q_{ij}$. The orientation of the three points $Q_{ij}$ sitting around the same vertex must be the same for every vertex.
Every pentagon $C_{ijk}P_{ij}P_{ji}V_jP_{jk}$ can be then transformed into a (non-degenerate) pentagon $C'_{ijk}Q_{ij}Q_{ji}V'_jQ_{jk}$, where $C'_{ijk}$ and $V'_j$ are the intersections of lines $OC_{ijk}$ and $OV_j$ respectively with plane $Q_{ij}Q_{ji}Q_{jk}$. These twelve pentagons are precisely the faces of a tetartoid, which is parameterized by $s$ and $t$.
So, one can compute the lengths of the sides and the angles of the faces as a function of $s$ and $t$ and that should be the answer to your question. I've found the explicit expressions with a symbolic computation software: they are quite complex, but if needed I can write them here.
ADDENDA.
Here's a GeoGebra file I've made, showing a tetartoid generated from a tetrahedron: http://tube.geogebra.org/material/show/id/1481233 .
And here are the values of $a^2$, $b^2$, $c^2$, $cosbeta$ and $cosgamma$ as a function of parameters $s$ and $t$, where $beta=angle bb$ and $gamma=angle cc$. I chose to present $a$ instead of $angle bc$ because it has a much simpler expression.
b^2 = ((1 + 3 (-1 + s) s + (-1 + t) t) (3 (1 - 2 s)^2 s^2 +
2 (1 - 2 s) s t + (3 + 4 s (-3 + 4 s)) t^2 - 4 t^3 +
4 t^4))/(-3 s + 6 s^2 + t (-1 + 2 t))^2
c^2 = ((s^2 + 3 t^2) (-4 s^3 + 4 s^4 + 2 s (1 - 6 t) t +
t^2 (5 + 12 (-1 + t) t) +
s^2 (1 + 4 t (-1 + 4 t))))/(s (-1 + 2 s) - 3 t + 6 t^2)^2
a^2 = 1 - 4 s + 4 s^2 + 4 t^2;
cos beta = (-3 (1 - 2 s)^2 s^2 +
2 s (-1 + 2 s) t + (5 + 4 s (-3 + 2 s)) t^2 - 4 t^3 + 4 t^4)/(
6 (1 - 2 s)^2 s^2 + 4 (1 - 2 s) s t + 2 (3 + 4 s (-3 + 4 s)) t^2 -
8 t^3 + 8 t^4)
cos gamma = ((s - t) (s + 4 s^3 + 4 s^2 (-1 + t) + 12 s t^2 +
t (-1 + 12 (-1 + t) t)))/(-8 s^3 + 8 s^4 + 4 s (1 - 6 t) t +
2 t^2 (5 + 12 (-1 + t) t) + s^2 (2 + 8 t (-1 + 4 t)))
@Arentino - this answer has been very helpful to me. Thanks for writing it. I still don't understand what a,b,c,beta and gamma are. Are a,b and c the sides of the pentagons? This would not make sense since I confirmed that s=0.4, t=0.1 produces a dodecahedron. However, the formula doesn't produce a=b=c.
– Rohit Pandey
Jul 28 '18 at 22:12
1
@RohitPandey $a$, $b$, $c$ are the sides of the pentagon. For $s=0.4$, $t=0.1$ you don't get an exact regular pentagon: you may check that one side is different from the other four. A better approximation is given by $s=0.404508$, $t=0.0954913$.
– Aretino
Jul 29 '18 at 7:27
That actually worked. Thanks! Final question - what software did you use to get the symbolic expressions? Do you know if it would be possible to do this in python?
– Rohit Pandey
Jul 29 '18 at 7:47
1
I used Mathematica, a free alternative could be Maxima. Even Geogebra has some symbolic algebra features, that may be enough in this case.
– Aretino
Jul 29 '18 at 7:53
Aretino - if you get a chance, can you please answer this question: math.stackexchange.com/questions/2975088/… I feel it'll be trivial for you.
– Rohit Pandey
Oct 28 '18 at 21:09
add a comment |
Managed to solve this. Choose numbers $0le ale ble c$. Calculate
$n = a^2 c - b c^2 ,$
$d_1 = a^2 - a b + b^2 + a c - 2 b c ,$
$d_2 = a^2 + a b + b^2 - a c - 2 b c .$
Then, if $n times d_1 times d_2 ne 0$,
$$((a, b, c),(-a, -b, c),(-n, -n, n)/d_1, (-c, -a, b),(-n, n, n)/d_2)$$
gives a tetartoid pentagon which can be multiplied by the tetrahedral group to give the full figure. For example, (4,8,20) generates
$$((4, 8, 20),(-4, -8, 20),(-15, -15, 15),(-20, -4, 8),(-10, 10, 10))$$
thanks for asking this and very neat answer as well. How did you go about finding the coordinates of the first pentagon?
– Rohit Pandey
Oct 28 '18 at 5:41
add a comment |
I was quite fascinated with this solid and the answers here on how to construct it, so I combined the two approaches (by Ed Pegg and Aretino) and created a video on it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JEFjS2fiTA
This medium might help people understand the process of constructing it better (I know I would have benefited from something like it when I first came across this post).
add a comment |
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3 Answers
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3 Answers
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As explained in this page a tetartoid can be built starting from a tetrahedron, as follows. Take a tetrahedron of unit edges and vertices $V_1$, $V_2$, $V_3$ and $V_4$. Upon every edge $V_iV_j$ construct two points $P_{ij}$ and $P_{ji}$ having a fixed distance $s$ from $V_i$ and $V_j$ respectively ($0le sle1/2$). Join the center $C_{ijk}$ of every face $V_iV_jV_k$ (vertices taken counterclockwise) with $P_{ij}$, $P_{jk}$ and $P_{ki}$, so that every face is divided into three quadrilaterals (12 of them in the whole tetrahedron).
But notice that every quadrilateral $C_{ijk}P_{ij}V_jP_{jk}$ can be also seen as a degenerate pentagon $C_{ijk}P_{ij}P_{ji}V_jP_{jk}$, because vertex $P_{ji}$ lies between $P_{ij}$ and $V_j$.
Let now $O$ be the tetrahedron center and consider the six planes $OV_iV_j$ passing through the center and each edge. From point $P_{ij}$ draw the perpendicular line to $OV_iV_j$ and take on it a point $Q_{ij}$ such that $P_{ij}Q_{ij}=t$, where $t$ is another fixed parameter. Do the same for $P_{ji}$ but choose point $Q_{ji}$ so that it lies on the opposite side of the edge $V_iV_j$ with respect to $Q_{ij}$. The orientation of the three points $Q_{ij}$ sitting around the same vertex must be the same for every vertex.
Every pentagon $C_{ijk}P_{ij}P_{ji}V_jP_{jk}$ can be then transformed into a (non-degenerate) pentagon $C'_{ijk}Q_{ij}Q_{ji}V'_jQ_{jk}$, where $C'_{ijk}$ and $V'_j$ are the intersections of lines $OC_{ijk}$ and $OV_j$ respectively with plane $Q_{ij}Q_{ji}Q_{jk}$. These twelve pentagons are precisely the faces of a tetartoid, which is parameterized by $s$ and $t$.
So, one can compute the lengths of the sides and the angles of the faces as a function of $s$ and $t$ and that should be the answer to your question. I've found the explicit expressions with a symbolic computation software: they are quite complex, but if needed I can write them here.
ADDENDA.
Here's a GeoGebra file I've made, showing a tetartoid generated from a tetrahedron: http://tube.geogebra.org/material/show/id/1481233 .
And here are the values of $a^2$, $b^2$, $c^2$, $cosbeta$ and $cosgamma$ as a function of parameters $s$ and $t$, where $beta=angle bb$ and $gamma=angle cc$. I chose to present $a$ instead of $angle bc$ because it has a much simpler expression.
b^2 = ((1 + 3 (-1 + s) s + (-1 + t) t) (3 (1 - 2 s)^2 s^2 +
2 (1 - 2 s) s t + (3 + 4 s (-3 + 4 s)) t^2 - 4 t^3 +
4 t^4))/(-3 s + 6 s^2 + t (-1 + 2 t))^2
c^2 = ((s^2 + 3 t^2) (-4 s^3 + 4 s^4 + 2 s (1 - 6 t) t +
t^2 (5 + 12 (-1 + t) t) +
s^2 (1 + 4 t (-1 + 4 t))))/(s (-1 + 2 s) - 3 t + 6 t^2)^2
a^2 = 1 - 4 s + 4 s^2 + 4 t^2;
cos beta = (-3 (1 - 2 s)^2 s^2 +
2 s (-1 + 2 s) t + (5 + 4 s (-3 + 2 s)) t^2 - 4 t^3 + 4 t^4)/(
6 (1 - 2 s)^2 s^2 + 4 (1 - 2 s) s t + 2 (3 + 4 s (-3 + 4 s)) t^2 -
8 t^3 + 8 t^4)
cos gamma = ((s - t) (s + 4 s^3 + 4 s^2 (-1 + t) + 12 s t^2 +
t (-1 + 12 (-1 + t) t)))/(-8 s^3 + 8 s^4 + 4 s (1 - 6 t) t +
2 t^2 (5 + 12 (-1 + t) t) + s^2 (2 + 8 t (-1 + 4 t)))
@Arentino - this answer has been very helpful to me. Thanks for writing it. I still don't understand what a,b,c,beta and gamma are. Are a,b and c the sides of the pentagons? This would not make sense since I confirmed that s=0.4, t=0.1 produces a dodecahedron. However, the formula doesn't produce a=b=c.
– Rohit Pandey
Jul 28 '18 at 22:12
1
@RohitPandey $a$, $b$, $c$ are the sides of the pentagon. For $s=0.4$, $t=0.1$ you don't get an exact regular pentagon: you may check that one side is different from the other four. A better approximation is given by $s=0.404508$, $t=0.0954913$.
– Aretino
Jul 29 '18 at 7:27
That actually worked. Thanks! Final question - what software did you use to get the symbolic expressions? Do you know if it would be possible to do this in python?
– Rohit Pandey
Jul 29 '18 at 7:47
1
I used Mathematica, a free alternative could be Maxima. Even Geogebra has some symbolic algebra features, that may be enough in this case.
– Aretino
Jul 29 '18 at 7:53
Aretino - if you get a chance, can you please answer this question: math.stackexchange.com/questions/2975088/… I feel it'll be trivial for you.
– Rohit Pandey
Oct 28 '18 at 21:09
add a comment |
As explained in this page a tetartoid can be built starting from a tetrahedron, as follows. Take a tetrahedron of unit edges and vertices $V_1$, $V_2$, $V_3$ and $V_4$. Upon every edge $V_iV_j$ construct two points $P_{ij}$ and $P_{ji}$ having a fixed distance $s$ from $V_i$ and $V_j$ respectively ($0le sle1/2$). Join the center $C_{ijk}$ of every face $V_iV_jV_k$ (vertices taken counterclockwise) with $P_{ij}$, $P_{jk}$ and $P_{ki}$, so that every face is divided into three quadrilaterals (12 of them in the whole tetrahedron).
But notice that every quadrilateral $C_{ijk}P_{ij}V_jP_{jk}$ can be also seen as a degenerate pentagon $C_{ijk}P_{ij}P_{ji}V_jP_{jk}$, because vertex $P_{ji}$ lies between $P_{ij}$ and $V_j$.
Let now $O$ be the tetrahedron center and consider the six planes $OV_iV_j$ passing through the center and each edge. From point $P_{ij}$ draw the perpendicular line to $OV_iV_j$ and take on it a point $Q_{ij}$ such that $P_{ij}Q_{ij}=t$, where $t$ is another fixed parameter. Do the same for $P_{ji}$ but choose point $Q_{ji}$ so that it lies on the opposite side of the edge $V_iV_j$ with respect to $Q_{ij}$. The orientation of the three points $Q_{ij}$ sitting around the same vertex must be the same for every vertex.
Every pentagon $C_{ijk}P_{ij}P_{ji}V_jP_{jk}$ can be then transformed into a (non-degenerate) pentagon $C'_{ijk}Q_{ij}Q_{ji}V'_jQ_{jk}$, where $C'_{ijk}$ and $V'_j$ are the intersections of lines $OC_{ijk}$ and $OV_j$ respectively with plane $Q_{ij}Q_{ji}Q_{jk}$. These twelve pentagons are precisely the faces of a tetartoid, which is parameterized by $s$ and $t$.
So, one can compute the lengths of the sides and the angles of the faces as a function of $s$ and $t$ and that should be the answer to your question. I've found the explicit expressions with a symbolic computation software: they are quite complex, but if needed I can write them here.
ADDENDA.
Here's a GeoGebra file I've made, showing a tetartoid generated from a tetrahedron: http://tube.geogebra.org/material/show/id/1481233 .
And here are the values of $a^2$, $b^2$, $c^2$, $cosbeta$ and $cosgamma$ as a function of parameters $s$ and $t$, where $beta=angle bb$ and $gamma=angle cc$. I chose to present $a$ instead of $angle bc$ because it has a much simpler expression.
b^2 = ((1 + 3 (-1 + s) s + (-1 + t) t) (3 (1 - 2 s)^2 s^2 +
2 (1 - 2 s) s t + (3 + 4 s (-3 + 4 s)) t^2 - 4 t^3 +
4 t^4))/(-3 s + 6 s^2 + t (-1 + 2 t))^2
c^2 = ((s^2 + 3 t^2) (-4 s^3 + 4 s^4 + 2 s (1 - 6 t) t +
t^2 (5 + 12 (-1 + t) t) +
s^2 (1 + 4 t (-1 + 4 t))))/(s (-1 + 2 s) - 3 t + 6 t^2)^2
a^2 = 1 - 4 s + 4 s^2 + 4 t^2;
cos beta = (-3 (1 - 2 s)^2 s^2 +
2 s (-1 + 2 s) t + (5 + 4 s (-3 + 2 s)) t^2 - 4 t^3 + 4 t^4)/(
6 (1 - 2 s)^2 s^2 + 4 (1 - 2 s) s t + 2 (3 + 4 s (-3 + 4 s)) t^2 -
8 t^3 + 8 t^4)
cos gamma = ((s - t) (s + 4 s^3 + 4 s^2 (-1 + t) + 12 s t^2 +
t (-1 + 12 (-1 + t) t)))/(-8 s^3 + 8 s^4 + 4 s (1 - 6 t) t +
2 t^2 (5 + 12 (-1 + t) t) + s^2 (2 + 8 t (-1 + 4 t)))
@Arentino - this answer has been very helpful to me. Thanks for writing it. I still don't understand what a,b,c,beta and gamma are. Are a,b and c the sides of the pentagons? This would not make sense since I confirmed that s=0.4, t=0.1 produces a dodecahedron. However, the formula doesn't produce a=b=c.
– Rohit Pandey
Jul 28 '18 at 22:12
1
@RohitPandey $a$, $b$, $c$ are the sides of the pentagon. For $s=0.4$, $t=0.1$ you don't get an exact regular pentagon: you may check that one side is different from the other four. A better approximation is given by $s=0.404508$, $t=0.0954913$.
– Aretino
Jul 29 '18 at 7:27
That actually worked. Thanks! Final question - what software did you use to get the symbolic expressions? Do you know if it would be possible to do this in python?
– Rohit Pandey
Jul 29 '18 at 7:47
1
I used Mathematica, a free alternative could be Maxima. Even Geogebra has some symbolic algebra features, that may be enough in this case.
– Aretino
Jul 29 '18 at 7:53
Aretino - if you get a chance, can you please answer this question: math.stackexchange.com/questions/2975088/… I feel it'll be trivial for you.
– Rohit Pandey
Oct 28 '18 at 21:09
add a comment |
As explained in this page a tetartoid can be built starting from a tetrahedron, as follows. Take a tetrahedron of unit edges and vertices $V_1$, $V_2$, $V_3$ and $V_4$. Upon every edge $V_iV_j$ construct two points $P_{ij}$ and $P_{ji}$ having a fixed distance $s$ from $V_i$ and $V_j$ respectively ($0le sle1/2$). Join the center $C_{ijk}$ of every face $V_iV_jV_k$ (vertices taken counterclockwise) with $P_{ij}$, $P_{jk}$ and $P_{ki}$, so that every face is divided into three quadrilaterals (12 of them in the whole tetrahedron).
But notice that every quadrilateral $C_{ijk}P_{ij}V_jP_{jk}$ can be also seen as a degenerate pentagon $C_{ijk}P_{ij}P_{ji}V_jP_{jk}$, because vertex $P_{ji}$ lies between $P_{ij}$ and $V_j$.
Let now $O$ be the tetrahedron center and consider the six planes $OV_iV_j$ passing through the center and each edge. From point $P_{ij}$ draw the perpendicular line to $OV_iV_j$ and take on it a point $Q_{ij}$ such that $P_{ij}Q_{ij}=t$, where $t$ is another fixed parameter. Do the same for $P_{ji}$ but choose point $Q_{ji}$ so that it lies on the opposite side of the edge $V_iV_j$ with respect to $Q_{ij}$. The orientation of the three points $Q_{ij}$ sitting around the same vertex must be the same for every vertex.
Every pentagon $C_{ijk}P_{ij}P_{ji}V_jP_{jk}$ can be then transformed into a (non-degenerate) pentagon $C'_{ijk}Q_{ij}Q_{ji}V'_jQ_{jk}$, where $C'_{ijk}$ and $V'_j$ are the intersections of lines $OC_{ijk}$ and $OV_j$ respectively with plane $Q_{ij}Q_{ji}Q_{jk}$. These twelve pentagons are precisely the faces of a tetartoid, which is parameterized by $s$ and $t$.
So, one can compute the lengths of the sides and the angles of the faces as a function of $s$ and $t$ and that should be the answer to your question. I've found the explicit expressions with a symbolic computation software: they are quite complex, but if needed I can write them here.
ADDENDA.
Here's a GeoGebra file I've made, showing a tetartoid generated from a tetrahedron: http://tube.geogebra.org/material/show/id/1481233 .
And here are the values of $a^2$, $b^2$, $c^2$, $cosbeta$ and $cosgamma$ as a function of parameters $s$ and $t$, where $beta=angle bb$ and $gamma=angle cc$. I chose to present $a$ instead of $angle bc$ because it has a much simpler expression.
b^2 = ((1 + 3 (-1 + s) s + (-1 + t) t) (3 (1 - 2 s)^2 s^2 +
2 (1 - 2 s) s t + (3 + 4 s (-3 + 4 s)) t^2 - 4 t^3 +
4 t^4))/(-3 s + 6 s^2 + t (-1 + 2 t))^2
c^2 = ((s^2 + 3 t^2) (-4 s^3 + 4 s^4 + 2 s (1 - 6 t) t +
t^2 (5 + 12 (-1 + t) t) +
s^2 (1 + 4 t (-1 + 4 t))))/(s (-1 + 2 s) - 3 t + 6 t^2)^2
a^2 = 1 - 4 s + 4 s^2 + 4 t^2;
cos beta = (-3 (1 - 2 s)^2 s^2 +
2 s (-1 + 2 s) t + (5 + 4 s (-3 + 2 s)) t^2 - 4 t^3 + 4 t^4)/(
6 (1 - 2 s)^2 s^2 + 4 (1 - 2 s) s t + 2 (3 + 4 s (-3 + 4 s)) t^2 -
8 t^3 + 8 t^4)
cos gamma = ((s - t) (s + 4 s^3 + 4 s^2 (-1 + t) + 12 s t^2 +
t (-1 + 12 (-1 + t) t)))/(-8 s^3 + 8 s^4 + 4 s (1 - 6 t) t +
2 t^2 (5 + 12 (-1 + t) t) + s^2 (2 + 8 t (-1 + 4 t)))
As explained in this page a tetartoid can be built starting from a tetrahedron, as follows. Take a tetrahedron of unit edges and vertices $V_1$, $V_2$, $V_3$ and $V_4$. Upon every edge $V_iV_j$ construct two points $P_{ij}$ and $P_{ji}$ having a fixed distance $s$ from $V_i$ and $V_j$ respectively ($0le sle1/2$). Join the center $C_{ijk}$ of every face $V_iV_jV_k$ (vertices taken counterclockwise) with $P_{ij}$, $P_{jk}$ and $P_{ki}$, so that every face is divided into three quadrilaterals (12 of them in the whole tetrahedron).
But notice that every quadrilateral $C_{ijk}P_{ij}V_jP_{jk}$ can be also seen as a degenerate pentagon $C_{ijk}P_{ij}P_{ji}V_jP_{jk}$, because vertex $P_{ji}$ lies between $P_{ij}$ and $V_j$.
Let now $O$ be the tetrahedron center and consider the six planes $OV_iV_j$ passing through the center and each edge. From point $P_{ij}$ draw the perpendicular line to $OV_iV_j$ and take on it a point $Q_{ij}$ such that $P_{ij}Q_{ij}=t$, where $t$ is another fixed parameter. Do the same for $P_{ji}$ but choose point $Q_{ji}$ so that it lies on the opposite side of the edge $V_iV_j$ with respect to $Q_{ij}$. The orientation of the three points $Q_{ij}$ sitting around the same vertex must be the same for every vertex.
Every pentagon $C_{ijk}P_{ij}P_{ji}V_jP_{jk}$ can be then transformed into a (non-degenerate) pentagon $C'_{ijk}Q_{ij}Q_{ji}V'_jQ_{jk}$, where $C'_{ijk}$ and $V'_j$ are the intersections of lines $OC_{ijk}$ and $OV_j$ respectively with plane $Q_{ij}Q_{ji}Q_{jk}$. These twelve pentagons are precisely the faces of a tetartoid, which is parameterized by $s$ and $t$.
So, one can compute the lengths of the sides and the angles of the faces as a function of $s$ and $t$ and that should be the answer to your question. I've found the explicit expressions with a symbolic computation software: they are quite complex, but if needed I can write them here.
ADDENDA.
Here's a GeoGebra file I've made, showing a tetartoid generated from a tetrahedron: http://tube.geogebra.org/material/show/id/1481233 .
And here are the values of $a^2$, $b^2$, $c^2$, $cosbeta$ and $cosgamma$ as a function of parameters $s$ and $t$, where $beta=angle bb$ and $gamma=angle cc$. I chose to present $a$ instead of $angle bc$ because it has a much simpler expression.
b^2 = ((1 + 3 (-1 + s) s + (-1 + t) t) (3 (1 - 2 s)^2 s^2 +
2 (1 - 2 s) s t + (3 + 4 s (-3 + 4 s)) t^2 - 4 t^3 +
4 t^4))/(-3 s + 6 s^2 + t (-1 + 2 t))^2
c^2 = ((s^2 + 3 t^2) (-4 s^3 + 4 s^4 + 2 s (1 - 6 t) t +
t^2 (5 + 12 (-1 + t) t) +
s^2 (1 + 4 t (-1 + 4 t))))/(s (-1 + 2 s) - 3 t + 6 t^2)^2
a^2 = 1 - 4 s + 4 s^2 + 4 t^2;
cos beta = (-3 (1 - 2 s)^2 s^2 +
2 s (-1 + 2 s) t + (5 + 4 s (-3 + 2 s)) t^2 - 4 t^3 + 4 t^4)/(
6 (1 - 2 s)^2 s^2 + 4 (1 - 2 s) s t + 2 (3 + 4 s (-3 + 4 s)) t^2 -
8 t^3 + 8 t^4)
cos gamma = ((s - t) (s + 4 s^3 + 4 s^2 (-1 + t) + 12 s t^2 +
t (-1 + 12 (-1 + t) t)))/(-8 s^3 + 8 s^4 + 4 s (1 - 6 t) t +
2 t^2 (5 + 12 (-1 + t) t) + s^2 (2 + 8 t (-1 + 4 t)))
edited Aug 14 '15 at 19:40
answered Aug 13 '15 at 20:19
AretinoAretino
22.8k21443
22.8k21443
@Arentino - this answer has been very helpful to me. Thanks for writing it. I still don't understand what a,b,c,beta and gamma are. Are a,b and c the sides of the pentagons? This would not make sense since I confirmed that s=0.4, t=0.1 produces a dodecahedron. However, the formula doesn't produce a=b=c.
– Rohit Pandey
Jul 28 '18 at 22:12
1
@RohitPandey $a$, $b$, $c$ are the sides of the pentagon. For $s=0.4$, $t=0.1$ you don't get an exact regular pentagon: you may check that one side is different from the other four. A better approximation is given by $s=0.404508$, $t=0.0954913$.
– Aretino
Jul 29 '18 at 7:27
That actually worked. Thanks! Final question - what software did you use to get the symbolic expressions? Do you know if it would be possible to do this in python?
– Rohit Pandey
Jul 29 '18 at 7:47
1
I used Mathematica, a free alternative could be Maxima. Even Geogebra has some symbolic algebra features, that may be enough in this case.
– Aretino
Jul 29 '18 at 7:53
Aretino - if you get a chance, can you please answer this question: math.stackexchange.com/questions/2975088/… I feel it'll be trivial for you.
– Rohit Pandey
Oct 28 '18 at 21:09
add a comment |
@Arentino - this answer has been very helpful to me. Thanks for writing it. I still don't understand what a,b,c,beta and gamma are. Are a,b and c the sides of the pentagons? This would not make sense since I confirmed that s=0.4, t=0.1 produces a dodecahedron. However, the formula doesn't produce a=b=c.
– Rohit Pandey
Jul 28 '18 at 22:12
1
@RohitPandey $a$, $b$, $c$ are the sides of the pentagon. For $s=0.4$, $t=0.1$ you don't get an exact regular pentagon: you may check that one side is different from the other four. A better approximation is given by $s=0.404508$, $t=0.0954913$.
– Aretino
Jul 29 '18 at 7:27
That actually worked. Thanks! Final question - what software did you use to get the symbolic expressions? Do you know if it would be possible to do this in python?
– Rohit Pandey
Jul 29 '18 at 7:47
1
I used Mathematica, a free alternative could be Maxima. Even Geogebra has some symbolic algebra features, that may be enough in this case.
– Aretino
Jul 29 '18 at 7:53
Aretino - if you get a chance, can you please answer this question: math.stackexchange.com/questions/2975088/… I feel it'll be trivial for you.
– Rohit Pandey
Oct 28 '18 at 21:09
@Arentino - this answer has been very helpful to me. Thanks for writing it. I still don't understand what a,b,c,beta and gamma are. Are a,b and c the sides of the pentagons? This would not make sense since I confirmed that s=0.4, t=0.1 produces a dodecahedron. However, the formula doesn't produce a=b=c.
– Rohit Pandey
Jul 28 '18 at 22:12
@Arentino - this answer has been very helpful to me. Thanks for writing it. I still don't understand what a,b,c,beta and gamma are. Are a,b and c the sides of the pentagons? This would not make sense since I confirmed that s=0.4, t=0.1 produces a dodecahedron. However, the formula doesn't produce a=b=c.
– Rohit Pandey
Jul 28 '18 at 22:12
1
1
@RohitPandey $a$, $b$, $c$ are the sides of the pentagon. For $s=0.4$, $t=0.1$ you don't get an exact regular pentagon: you may check that one side is different from the other four. A better approximation is given by $s=0.404508$, $t=0.0954913$.
– Aretino
Jul 29 '18 at 7:27
@RohitPandey $a$, $b$, $c$ are the sides of the pentagon. For $s=0.4$, $t=0.1$ you don't get an exact regular pentagon: you may check that one side is different from the other four. A better approximation is given by $s=0.404508$, $t=0.0954913$.
– Aretino
Jul 29 '18 at 7:27
That actually worked. Thanks! Final question - what software did you use to get the symbolic expressions? Do you know if it would be possible to do this in python?
– Rohit Pandey
Jul 29 '18 at 7:47
That actually worked. Thanks! Final question - what software did you use to get the symbolic expressions? Do you know if it would be possible to do this in python?
– Rohit Pandey
Jul 29 '18 at 7:47
1
1
I used Mathematica, a free alternative could be Maxima. Even Geogebra has some symbolic algebra features, that may be enough in this case.
– Aretino
Jul 29 '18 at 7:53
I used Mathematica, a free alternative could be Maxima. Even Geogebra has some symbolic algebra features, that may be enough in this case.
– Aretino
Jul 29 '18 at 7:53
Aretino - if you get a chance, can you please answer this question: math.stackexchange.com/questions/2975088/… I feel it'll be trivial for you.
– Rohit Pandey
Oct 28 '18 at 21:09
Aretino - if you get a chance, can you please answer this question: math.stackexchange.com/questions/2975088/… I feel it'll be trivial for you.
– Rohit Pandey
Oct 28 '18 at 21:09
add a comment |
Managed to solve this. Choose numbers $0le ale ble c$. Calculate
$n = a^2 c - b c^2 ,$
$d_1 = a^2 - a b + b^2 + a c - 2 b c ,$
$d_2 = a^2 + a b + b^2 - a c - 2 b c .$
Then, if $n times d_1 times d_2 ne 0$,
$$((a, b, c),(-a, -b, c),(-n, -n, n)/d_1, (-c, -a, b),(-n, n, n)/d_2)$$
gives a tetartoid pentagon which can be multiplied by the tetrahedral group to give the full figure. For example, (4,8,20) generates
$$((4, 8, 20),(-4, -8, 20),(-15, -15, 15),(-20, -4, 8),(-10, 10, 10))$$
thanks for asking this and very neat answer as well. How did you go about finding the coordinates of the first pentagon?
– Rohit Pandey
Oct 28 '18 at 5:41
add a comment |
Managed to solve this. Choose numbers $0le ale ble c$. Calculate
$n = a^2 c - b c^2 ,$
$d_1 = a^2 - a b + b^2 + a c - 2 b c ,$
$d_2 = a^2 + a b + b^2 - a c - 2 b c .$
Then, if $n times d_1 times d_2 ne 0$,
$$((a, b, c),(-a, -b, c),(-n, -n, n)/d_1, (-c, -a, b),(-n, n, n)/d_2)$$
gives a tetartoid pentagon which can be multiplied by the tetrahedral group to give the full figure. For example, (4,8,20) generates
$$((4, 8, 20),(-4, -8, 20),(-15, -15, 15),(-20, -4, 8),(-10, 10, 10))$$
thanks for asking this and very neat answer as well. How did you go about finding the coordinates of the first pentagon?
– Rohit Pandey
Oct 28 '18 at 5:41
add a comment |
Managed to solve this. Choose numbers $0le ale ble c$. Calculate
$n = a^2 c - b c^2 ,$
$d_1 = a^2 - a b + b^2 + a c - 2 b c ,$
$d_2 = a^2 + a b + b^2 - a c - 2 b c .$
Then, if $n times d_1 times d_2 ne 0$,
$$((a, b, c),(-a, -b, c),(-n, -n, n)/d_1, (-c, -a, b),(-n, n, n)/d_2)$$
gives a tetartoid pentagon which can be multiplied by the tetrahedral group to give the full figure. For example, (4,8,20) generates
$$((4, 8, 20),(-4, -8, 20),(-15, -15, 15),(-20, -4, 8),(-10, 10, 10))$$
Managed to solve this. Choose numbers $0le ale ble c$. Calculate
$n = a^2 c - b c^2 ,$
$d_1 = a^2 - a b + b^2 + a c - 2 b c ,$
$d_2 = a^2 + a b + b^2 - a c - 2 b c .$
Then, if $n times d_1 times d_2 ne 0$,
$$((a, b, c),(-a, -b, c),(-n, -n, n)/d_1, (-c, -a, b),(-n, n, n)/d_2)$$
gives a tetartoid pentagon which can be multiplied by the tetrahedral group to give the full figure. For example, (4,8,20) generates
$$((4, 8, 20),(-4, -8, 20),(-15, -15, 15),(-20, -4, 8),(-10, 10, 10))$$
answered Aug 14 '15 at 20:40
Ed PeggEd Pegg
9,77232592
9,77232592
thanks for asking this and very neat answer as well. How did you go about finding the coordinates of the first pentagon?
– Rohit Pandey
Oct 28 '18 at 5:41
add a comment |
thanks for asking this and very neat answer as well. How did you go about finding the coordinates of the first pentagon?
– Rohit Pandey
Oct 28 '18 at 5:41
thanks for asking this and very neat answer as well. How did you go about finding the coordinates of the first pentagon?
– Rohit Pandey
Oct 28 '18 at 5:41
thanks for asking this and very neat answer as well. How did you go about finding the coordinates of the first pentagon?
– Rohit Pandey
Oct 28 '18 at 5:41
add a comment |
I was quite fascinated with this solid and the answers here on how to construct it, so I combined the two approaches (by Ed Pegg and Aretino) and created a video on it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JEFjS2fiTA
This medium might help people understand the process of constructing it better (I know I would have benefited from something like it when I first came across this post).
add a comment |
I was quite fascinated with this solid and the answers here on how to construct it, so I combined the two approaches (by Ed Pegg and Aretino) and created a video on it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JEFjS2fiTA
This medium might help people understand the process of constructing it better (I know I would have benefited from something like it when I first came across this post).
add a comment |
I was quite fascinated with this solid and the answers here on how to construct it, so I combined the two approaches (by Ed Pegg and Aretino) and created a video on it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JEFjS2fiTA
This medium might help people understand the process of constructing it better (I know I would have benefited from something like it when I first came across this post).
I was quite fascinated with this solid and the answers here on how to construct it, so I combined the two approaches (by Ed Pegg and Aretino) and created a video on it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JEFjS2fiTA
This medium might help people understand the process of constructing it better (I know I would have benefited from something like it when I first came across this post).
answered Nov 23 '18 at 6:59
Rohit PandeyRohit Pandey
1,162921
1,162921
add a comment |
add a comment |
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What does "rules" mean? What would be the "rules" for a cube for example?
– Zev Chonoles
Aug 11 '15 at 16:36
For a cube, you need a quadrilateral with all sides equal and all angles equal -- a square. 8 copies of any triangle can be used to make an octahedron. 4 copies of any acute triangle can make a tetrahedron.
– Ed Pegg
Aug 11 '15 at 16:54
At a first glance I'd say the only condition is that the sum of the angles concurring at a same vertex must not exceed 360°.
– Aretino
Aug 11 '15 at 21:56
That means that angles bb and cc must be less than 120° each, but their sum must be more than 180°.
– Aretino
Aug 12 '15 at 11:13
I was wrong: some more constraint is needed.
– Aretino
Aug 12 '15 at 19:31