Choosing balls from Urn












2












$begingroup$


So suppose you have 7 red balls, 7 blue balls, and 7 white balls, what is the probability of choosing 4 balls of one colour and the last ball of another colour without replacement.
Apparently the answer is $$frac{binom{3}{1}timesbinom{7}{4}timesbinom{2}{1}timesbinom{7}{1}}{binom{21}{5}}$$
However, I thought you could get an equivalent answer by computing $$frac{6}{20}cdotfrac{5}{19}cdotfrac{4}{18}cdotfrac{14}{17}$$ But you get twice the probable chance from the choose method. Could somebody explain why the second way is flawed?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Your method looks correct. My guess is the other method is counting twice.
    $endgroup$
    – herb steinberg
    Dec 2 '18 at 1:38
















2












$begingroup$


So suppose you have 7 red balls, 7 blue balls, and 7 white balls, what is the probability of choosing 4 balls of one colour and the last ball of another colour without replacement.
Apparently the answer is $$frac{binom{3}{1}timesbinom{7}{4}timesbinom{2}{1}timesbinom{7}{1}}{binom{21}{5}}$$
However, I thought you could get an equivalent answer by computing $$frac{6}{20}cdotfrac{5}{19}cdotfrac{4}{18}cdotfrac{14}{17}$$ But you get twice the probable chance from the choose method. Could somebody explain why the second way is flawed?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Your method looks correct. My guess is the other method is counting twice.
    $endgroup$
    – herb steinberg
    Dec 2 '18 at 1:38














2












2








2





$begingroup$


So suppose you have 7 red balls, 7 blue balls, and 7 white balls, what is the probability of choosing 4 balls of one colour and the last ball of another colour without replacement.
Apparently the answer is $$frac{binom{3}{1}timesbinom{7}{4}timesbinom{2}{1}timesbinom{7}{1}}{binom{21}{5}}$$
However, I thought you could get an equivalent answer by computing $$frac{6}{20}cdotfrac{5}{19}cdotfrac{4}{18}cdotfrac{14}{17}$$ But you get twice the probable chance from the choose method. Could somebody explain why the second way is flawed?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$




So suppose you have 7 red balls, 7 blue balls, and 7 white balls, what is the probability of choosing 4 balls of one colour and the last ball of another colour without replacement.
Apparently the answer is $$frac{binom{3}{1}timesbinom{7}{4}timesbinom{2}{1}timesbinom{7}{1}}{binom{21}{5}}$$
However, I thought you could get an equivalent answer by computing $$frac{6}{20}cdotfrac{5}{19}cdotfrac{4}{18}cdotfrac{14}{17}$$ But you get twice the probable chance from the choose method. Could somebody explain why the second way is flawed?







discrete-mathematics






share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question











share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question










asked Dec 2 '18 at 1:20









GeraltGeralt

8917




8917








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Your method looks correct. My guess is the other method is counting twice.
    $endgroup$
    – herb steinberg
    Dec 2 '18 at 1:38














  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Your method looks correct. My guess is the other method is counting twice.
    $endgroup$
    – herb steinberg
    Dec 2 '18 at 1:38








1




1




$begingroup$
Your method looks correct. My guess is the other method is counting twice.
$endgroup$
– herb steinberg
Dec 2 '18 at 1:38




$begingroup$
Your method looks correct. My guess is the other method is counting twice.
$endgroup$
– herb steinberg
Dec 2 '18 at 1:38










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















1












$begingroup$

I would question the validity of the answer involving binomial coefficients...



Surely, the total number of ways of choosing $5$ balls from $21$ is $binom{21}{5}$, so as long as the rest of our counting argument is fine, then after diving by this number we will recover the probability we desire (since everything is uniformly random).



Whoever wrote this answer seems to say that we should "choose a color", then "draw four balls of that color", then "choose a different color", and finally "draw one ball of that color". But this is a touch shady, because the exact same expression with the numerator reordered would have you choose a color of which to draw a single ball, and then choose a different color of which to draw $4$ balls!



Since your stated problem seems to require that you draw the odd ball out last, the answer involving binomial coefficients is wrong because it is blind to order; specifically, it counts twice the number of scenarios that it should as valid.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$





















    1












    $begingroup$

    Your answer is correct.
    The other answer is actually $5$ times as large as it should be.



    What the other answer gave is the probability that among $5$ balls chosen from $21,$
    $4$ balls will be chosen from one of the $7$ balls of one color
    (which gives the factor $binom74$),
    that color can be any of the original three (whence the factor $binom31$),
    and $1$ ball will be chosen from one of the $7$ balls (whence the factor $binom71$)
    of one of the remaining $2$ colors (whence the factor $binom21$).



    Notice, however, that in the preceding paragraph I said nothing about the singleton color ball being chosen last. In fact the answer you were given counts the number of ways to draw four balls of one color and one of another where the singleton ball could occur anywhere in the sequence of balls drawn.
    That's because the whole idea of counting events from $binom{21}{5}$ possibilities
    is that each of these events describes $5$ balls chosen from the urn without regard to the order in which they were chosen.
    So it is counting all the events where the singleton ball was the first, second, third, or fourth ball chosen, not just the last.



    In fact, it should be a huge red flag (indicating a likely error)
    to see $binom{21}{5}$ in the denominator of the alleged probability of drawing five ballse from an urn of $21$ balls such that the last ball is a different color from the others.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$













      Your Answer





      StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
      return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
      StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
      StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
      });
      });
      }, "mathjax-editing");

      StackExchange.ready(function() {
      var channelOptions = {
      tags: "".split(" "),
      id: "69"
      };
      initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

      StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
      // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
      if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
      StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
      createEditor();
      });
      }
      else {
      createEditor();
      }
      });

      function createEditor() {
      StackExchange.prepareEditor({
      heartbeatType: 'answer',
      autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
      convertImagesToLinks: true,
      noModals: true,
      showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
      reputationToPostImages: 10,
      bindNavPrevention: true,
      postfix: "",
      imageUploader: {
      brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
      contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
      allowUrls: true
      },
      noCode: true, onDemand: true,
      discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
      ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
      });


      }
      });














      draft saved

      draft discarded


















      StackExchange.ready(
      function () {
      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3022096%2fchoosing-balls-from-urn%23new-answer', 'question_page');
      }
      );

      Post as a guest















      Required, but never shown

























      2 Answers
      2






      active

      oldest

      votes








      2 Answers
      2






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      1












      $begingroup$

      I would question the validity of the answer involving binomial coefficients...



      Surely, the total number of ways of choosing $5$ balls from $21$ is $binom{21}{5}$, so as long as the rest of our counting argument is fine, then after diving by this number we will recover the probability we desire (since everything is uniformly random).



      Whoever wrote this answer seems to say that we should "choose a color", then "draw four balls of that color", then "choose a different color", and finally "draw one ball of that color". But this is a touch shady, because the exact same expression with the numerator reordered would have you choose a color of which to draw a single ball, and then choose a different color of which to draw $4$ balls!



      Since your stated problem seems to require that you draw the odd ball out last, the answer involving binomial coefficients is wrong because it is blind to order; specifically, it counts twice the number of scenarios that it should as valid.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$


















        1












        $begingroup$

        I would question the validity of the answer involving binomial coefficients...



        Surely, the total number of ways of choosing $5$ balls from $21$ is $binom{21}{5}$, so as long as the rest of our counting argument is fine, then after diving by this number we will recover the probability we desire (since everything is uniformly random).



        Whoever wrote this answer seems to say that we should "choose a color", then "draw four balls of that color", then "choose a different color", and finally "draw one ball of that color". But this is a touch shady, because the exact same expression with the numerator reordered would have you choose a color of which to draw a single ball, and then choose a different color of which to draw $4$ balls!



        Since your stated problem seems to require that you draw the odd ball out last, the answer involving binomial coefficients is wrong because it is blind to order; specifically, it counts twice the number of scenarios that it should as valid.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$
















          1












          1








          1





          $begingroup$

          I would question the validity of the answer involving binomial coefficients...



          Surely, the total number of ways of choosing $5$ balls from $21$ is $binom{21}{5}$, so as long as the rest of our counting argument is fine, then after diving by this number we will recover the probability we desire (since everything is uniformly random).



          Whoever wrote this answer seems to say that we should "choose a color", then "draw four balls of that color", then "choose a different color", and finally "draw one ball of that color". But this is a touch shady, because the exact same expression with the numerator reordered would have you choose a color of which to draw a single ball, and then choose a different color of which to draw $4$ balls!



          Since your stated problem seems to require that you draw the odd ball out last, the answer involving binomial coefficients is wrong because it is blind to order; specifically, it counts twice the number of scenarios that it should as valid.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          I would question the validity of the answer involving binomial coefficients...



          Surely, the total number of ways of choosing $5$ balls from $21$ is $binom{21}{5}$, so as long as the rest of our counting argument is fine, then after diving by this number we will recover the probability we desire (since everything is uniformly random).



          Whoever wrote this answer seems to say that we should "choose a color", then "draw four balls of that color", then "choose a different color", and finally "draw one ball of that color". But this is a touch shady, because the exact same expression with the numerator reordered would have you choose a color of which to draw a single ball, and then choose a different color of which to draw $4$ balls!



          Since your stated problem seems to require that you draw the odd ball out last, the answer involving binomial coefficients is wrong because it is blind to order; specifically, it counts twice the number of scenarios that it should as valid.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered Dec 2 '18 at 1:57









          FranklinBashFranklinBash

          1012




          1012























              1












              $begingroup$

              Your answer is correct.
              The other answer is actually $5$ times as large as it should be.



              What the other answer gave is the probability that among $5$ balls chosen from $21,$
              $4$ balls will be chosen from one of the $7$ balls of one color
              (which gives the factor $binom74$),
              that color can be any of the original three (whence the factor $binom31$),
              and $1$ ball will be chosen from one of the $7$ balls (whence the factor $binom71$)
              of one of the remaining $2$ colors (whence the factor $binom21$).



              Notice, however, that in the preceding paragraph I said nothing about the singleton color ball being chosen last. In fact the answer you were given counts the number of ways to draw four balls of one color and one of another where the singleton ball could occur anywhere in the sequence of balls drawn.
              That's because the whole idea of counting events from $binom{21}{5}$ possibilities
              is that each of these events describes $5$ balls chosen from the urn without regard to the order in which they were chosen.
              So it is counting all the events where the singleton ball was the first, second, third, or fourth ball chosen, not just the last.



              In fact, it should be a huge red flag (indicating a likely error)
              to see $binom{21}{5}$ in the denominator of the alleged probability of drawing five ballse from an urn of $21$ balls such that the last ball is a different color from the others.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$


















                1












                $begingroup$

                Your answer is correct.
                The other answer is actually $5$ times as large as it should be.



                What the other answer gave is the probability that among $5$ balls chosen from $21,$
                $4$ balls will be chosen from one of the $7$ balls of one color
                (which gives the factor $binom74$),
                that color can be any of the original three (whence the factor $binom31$),
                and $1$ ball will be chosen from one of the $7$ balls (whence the factor $binom71$)
                of one of the remaining $2$ colors (whence the factor $binom21$).



                Notice, however, that in the preceding paragraph I said nothing about the singleton color ball being chosen last. In fact the answer you were given counts the number of ways to draw four balls of one color and one of another where the singleton ball could occur anywhere in the sequence of balls drawn.
                That's because the whole idea of counting events from $binom{21}{5}$ possibilities
                is that each of these events describes $5$ balls chosen from the urn without regard to the order in which they were chosen.
                So it is counting all the events where the singleton ball was the first, second, third, or fourth ball chosen, not just the last.



                In fact, it should be a huge red flag (indicating a likely error)
                to see $binom{21}{5}$ in the denominator of the alleged probability of drawing five ballse from an urn of $21$ balls such that the last ball is a different color from the others.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$
















                  1












                  1








                  1





                  $begingroup$

                  Your answer is correct.
                  The other answer is actually $5$ times as large as it should be.



                  What the other answer gave is the probability that among $5$ balls chosen from $21,$
                  $4$ balls will be chosen from one of the $7$ balls of one color
                  (which gives the factor $binom74$),
                  that color can be any of the original three (whence the factor $binom31$),
                  and $1$ ball will be chosen from one of the $7$ balls (whence the factor $binom71$)
                  of one of the remaining $2$ colors (whence the factor $binom21$).



                  Notice, however, that in the preceding paragraph I said nothing about the singleton color ball being chosen last. In fact the answer you were given counts the number of ways to draw four balls of one color and one of another where the singleton ball could occur anywhere in the sequence of balls drawn.
                  That's because the whole idea of counting events from $binom{21}{5}$ possibilities
                  is that each of these events describes $5$ balls chosen from the urn without regard to the order in which they were chosen.
                  So it is counting all the events where the singleton ball was the first, second, third, or fourth ball chosen, not just the last.



                  In fact, it should be a huge red flag (indicating a likely error)
                  to see $binom{21}{5}$ in the denominator of the alleged probability of drawing five ballse from an urn of $21$ balls such that the last ball is a different color from the others.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  Your answer is correct.
                  The other answer is actually $5$ times as large as it should be.



                  What the other answer gave is the probability that among $5$ balls chosen from $21,$
                  $4$ balls will be chosen from one of the $7$ balls of one color
                  (which gives the factor $binom74$),
                  that color can be any of the original three (whence the factor $binom31$),
                  and $1$ ball will be chosen from one of the $7$ balls (whence the factor $binom71$)
                  of one of the remaining $2$ colors (whence the factor $binom21$).



                  Notice, however, that in the preceding paragraph I said nothing about the singleton color ball being chosen last. In fact the answer you were given counts the number of ways to draw four balls of one color and one of another where the singleton ball could occur anywhere in the sequence of balls drawn.
                  That's because the whole idea of counting events from $binom{21}{5}$ possibilities
                  is that each of these events describes $5$ balls chosen from the urn without regard to the order in which they were chosen.
                  So it is counting all the events where the singleton ball was the first, second, third, or fourth ball chosen, not just the last.



                  In fact, it should be a huge red flag (indicating a likely error)
                  to see $binom{21}{5}$ in the denominator of the alleged probability of drawing five ballse from an urn of $21$ balls such that the last ball is a different color from the others.







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered Dec 2 '18 at 3:06









                  David KDavid K

                  54.4k343118




                  54.4k343118






























                      draft saved

                      draft discarded




















































                      Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!


                      • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                      But avoid



                      • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                      • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                      Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                      To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                      draft saved


                      draft discarded














                      StackExchange.ready(
                      function () {
                      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3022096%2fchoosing-balls-from-urn%23new-answer', 'question_page');
                      }
                      );

                      Post as a guest















                      Required, but never shown





















































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown

































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown







                      Popular posts from this blog

                      Biblatex bibliography style without URLs when DOI exists (in Overleaf with Zotero bibliography)

                      ComboBox Display Member on multiple fields

                      Is it possible to collect Nectar points via Trainline?