Proof of hint in Rudin exercise concerning countability of algebraic numbers












0












$begingroup$


The problem from Rudin's POMA is reproduced below:




Exercise 2.2: A complex number $z$ is said to be algebraic if there are integers $a_0,ldots,a_n$, not all zero, such that
$$
a_0z^n+a_1z^{n-1}+cdots+a_{n-1}z+a_n=0.
$$

Prove that the set of all algebraic numbers is countable. Hint: For every positive integer $N$ there are only finitely many equations with
$$
n+|a_0|+|a_1|+cdots+|a_n|=N.
$$




I think I've worked out how to use the hint effectively, but I'm curious as to the justification of the hint itself.



Ideas: Any positive integer $N$ effectively puts a bound on the order of the polynomials under consideration, namely $N-1$. The bound on the order of the polynomial also puts a bound on the number of coefficients being considered regardless of their value. Now, I know that a polynomial of order $n$ has at most $n$ distinct roots--how can I use that to good effect here?



If, say, $N=7$, then the order of the polynomials under consideration can be at most $6$ (otherwise all the coefficients would have to be 0 which is not permitted). If we are looking at a polynomial of degree 6, then we may only have one coefficient with a nonzero value, and that nonzero value would have to be 1.



Am I on the right track here? I'm not sure how to formalize this reasoning (or if it's even worth formalizing).










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$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Given $z$ a root of $P(x) = sum_{m=0}^n a_m x^m in mathbb{Z}[x]$ irreducible, let $N(P) = n+sum_{m=0}^n |a_m|$, then you can enumerate the polynomials with increasing $N(Q)$ and for each check if $z$ is a root of $Q$ (looking at $gcd(P,Q) in mathbb{Q}[x]$). You'll necessary find a $Q$ with $Q(z) = 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – reuns
    Nov 27 '18 at 3:32












  • $begingroup$
    Sorry, I don't really understand this comment or how exactly it proves the hint (I imagine my misunderstanding may be due to the fact that I do not have much of an algebraic background).
    $endgroup$
    – Jessica
    Nov 27 '18 at 3:40










  • $begingroup$
    The idea is it partition all possible polynomials (and therefore their algebraic number roots) into a countable number of finite sets. This is a strange and think outside the box way to do it, but there are only a finite number of polynomial where the sum of the coeeficients and the degree is $N$ that's one finite set. The union for every $N$ will contain all possible polynomials
    $endgroup$
    – fleablood
    Nov 27 '18 at 4:27
















0












$begingroup$


The problem from Rudin's POMA is reproduced below:




Exercise 2.2: A complex number $z$ is said to be algebraic if there are integers $a_0,ldots,a_n$, not all zero, such that
$$
a_0z^n+a_1z^{n-1}+cdots+a_{n-1}z+a_n=0.
$$

Prove that the set of all algebraic numbers is countable. Hint: For every positive integer $N$ there are only finitely many equations with
$$
n+|a_0|+|a_1|+cdots+|a_n|=N.
$$




I think I've worked out how to use the hint effectively, but I'm curious as to the justification of the hint itself.



Ideas: Any positive integer $N$ effectively puts a bound on the order of the polynomials under consideration, namely $N-1$. The bound on the order of the polynomial also puts a bound on the number of coefficients being considered regardless of their value. Now, I know that a polynomial of order $n$ has at most $n$ distinct roots--how can I use that to good effect here?



If, say, $N=7$, then the order of the polynomials under consideration can be at most $6$ (otherwise all the coefficients would have to be 0 which is not permitted). If we are looking at a polynomial of degree 6, then we may only have one coefficient with a nonzero value, and that nonzero value would have to be 1.



Am I on the right track here? I'm not sure how to formalize this reasoning (or if it's even worth formalizing).










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Given $z$ a root of $P(x) = sum_{m=0}^n a_m x^m in mathbb{Z}[x]$ irreducible, let $N(P) = n+sum_{m=0}^n |a_m|$, then you can enumerate the polynomials with increasing $N(Q)$ and for each check if $z$ is a root of $Q$ (looking at $gcd(P,Q) in mathbb{Q}[x]$). You'll necessary find a $Q$ with $Q(z) = 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – reuns
    Nov 27 '18 at 3:32












  • $begingroup$
    Sorry, I don't really understand this comment or how exactly it proves the hint (I imagine my misunderstanding may be due to the fact that I do not have much of an algebraic background).
    $endgroup$
    – Jessica
    Nov 27 '18 at 3:40










  • $begingroup$
    The idea is it partition all possible polynomials (and therefore their algebraic number roots) into a countable number of finite sets. This is a strange and think outside the box way to do it, but there are only a finite number of polynomial where the sum of the coeeficients and the degree is $N$ that's one finite set. The union for every $N$ will contain all possible polynomials
    $endgroup$
    – fleablood
    Nov 27 '18 at 4:27














0












0








0


1



$begingroup$


The problem from Rudin's POMA is reproduced below:




Exercise 2.2: A complex number $z$ is said to be algebraic if there are integers $a_0,ldots,a_n$, not all zero, such that
$$
a_0z^n+a_1z^{n-1}+cdots+a_{n-1}z+a_n=0.
$$

Prove that the set of all algebraic numbers is countable. Hint: For every positive integer $N$ there are only finitely many equations with
$$
n+|a_0|+|a_1|+cdots+|a_n|=N.
$$




I think I've worked out how to use the hint effectively, but I'm curious as to the justification of the hint itself.



Ideas: Any positive integer $N$ effectively puts a bound on the order of the polynomials under consideration, namely $N-1$. The bound on the order of the polynomial also puts a bound on the number of coefficients being considered regardless of their value. Now, I know that a polynomial of order $n$ has at most $n$ distinct roots--how can I use that to good effect here?



If, say, $N=7$, then the order of the polynomials under consideration can be at most $6$ (otherwise all the coefficients would have to be 0 which is not permitted). If we are looking at a polynomial of degree 6, then we may only have one coefficient with a nonzero value, and that nonzero value would have to be 1.



Am I on the right track here? I'm not sure how to formalize this reasoning (or if it's even worth formalizing).










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$




The problem from Rudin's POMA is reproduced below:




Exercise 2.2: A complex number $z$ is said to be algebraic if there are integers $a_0,ldots,a_n$, not all zero, such that
$$
a_0z^n+a_1z^{n-1}+cdots+a_{n-1}z+a_n=0.
$$

Prove that the set of all algebraic numbers is countable. Hint: For every positive integer $N$ there are only finitely many equations with
$$
n+|a_0|+|a_1|+cdots+|a_n|=N.
$$




I think I've worked out how to use the hint effectively, but I'm curious as to the justification of the hint itself.



Ideas: Any positive integer $N$ effectively puts a bound on the order of the polynomials under consideration, namely $N-1$. The bound on the order of the polynomial also puts a bound on the number of coefficients being considered regardless of their value. Now, I know that a polynomial of order $n$ has at most $n$ distinct roots--how can I use that to good effect here?



If, say, $N=7$, then the order of the polynomials under consideration can be at most $6$ (otherwise all the coefficients would have to be 0 which is not permitted). If we are looking at a polynomial of degree 6, then we may only have one coefficient with a nonzero value, and that nonzero value would have to be 1.



Am I on the right track here? I'm not sure how to formalize this reasoning (or if it's even worth formalizing).







real-analysis






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asked Nov 27 '18 at 3:20









JessicaJessica

414




414












  • $begingroup$
    Given $z$ a root of $P(x) = sum_{m=0}^n a_m x^m in mathbb{Z}[x]$ irreducible, let $N(P) = n+sum_{m=0}^n |a_m|$, then you can enumerate the polynomials with increasing $N(Q)$ and for each check if $z$ is a root of $Q$ (looking at $gcd(P,Q) in mathbb{Q}[x]$). You'll necessary find a $Q$ with $Q(z) = 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – reuns
    Nov 27 '18 at 3:32












  • $begingroup$
    Sorry, I don't really understand this comment or how exactly it proves the hint (I imagine my misunderstanding may be due to the fact that I do not have much of an algebraic background).
    $endgroup$
    – Jessica
    Nov 27 '18 at 3:40










  • $begingroup$
    The idea is it partition all possible polynomials (and therefore their algebraic number roots) into a countable number of finite sets. This is a strange and think outside the box way to do it, but there are only a finite number of polynomial where the sum of the coeeficients and the degree is $N$ that's one finite set. The union for every $N$ will contain all possible polynomials
    $endgroup$
    – fleablood
    Nov 27 '18 at 4:27


















  • $begingroup$
    Given $z$ a root of $P(x) = sum_{m=0}^n a_m x^m in mathbb{Z}[x]$ irreducible, let $N(P) = n+sum_{m=0}^n |a_m|$, then you can enumerate the polynomials with increasing $N(Q)$ and for each check if $z$ is a root of $Q$ (looking at $gcd(P,Q) in mathbb{Q}[x]$). You'll necessary find a $Q$ with $Q(z) = 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – reuns
    Nov 27 '18 at 3:32












  • $begingroup$
    Sorry, I don't really understand this comment or how exactly it proves the hint (I imagine my misunderstanding may be due to the fact that I do not have much of an algebraic background).
    $endgroup$
    – Jessica
    Nov 27 '18 at 3:40










  • $begingroup$
    The idea is it partition all possible polynomials (and therefore their algebraic number roots) into a countable number of finite sets. This is a strange and think outside the box way to do it, but there are only a finite number of polynomial where the sum of the coeeficients and the degree is $N$ that's one finite set. The union for every $N$ will contain all possible polynomials
    $endgroup$
    – fleablood
    Nov 27 '18 at 4:27
















$begingroup$
Given $z$ a root of $P(x) = sum_{m=0}^n a_m x^m in mathbb{Z}[x]$ irreducible, let $N(P) = n+sum_{m=0}^n |a_m|$, then you can enumerate the polynomials with increasing $N(Q)$ and for each check if $z$ is a root of $Q$ (looking at $gcd(P,Q) in mathbb{Q}[x]$). You'll necessary find a $Q$ with $Q(z) = 0$.
$endgroup$
– reuns
Nov 27 '18 at 3:32






$begingroup$
Given $z$ a root of $P(x) = sum_{m=0}^n a_m x^m in mathbb{Z}[x]$ irreducible, let $N(P) = n+sum_{m=0}^n |a_m|$, then you can enumerate the polynomials with increasing $N(Q)$ and for each check if $z$ is a root of $Q$ (looking at $gcd(P,Q) in mathbb{Q}[x]$). You'll necessary find a $Q$ with $Q(z) = 0$.
$endgroup$
– reuns
Nov 27 '18 at 3:32














$begingroup$
Sorry, I don't really understand this comment or how exactly it proves the hint (I imagine my misunderstanding may be due to the fact that I do not have much of an algebraic background).
$endgroup$
– Jessica
Nov 27 '18 at 3:40




$begingroup$
Sorry, I don't really understand this comment or how exactly it proves the hint (I imagine my misunderstanding may be due to the fact that I do not have much of an algebraic background).
$endgroup$
– Jessica
Nov 27 '18 at 3:40












$begingroup$
The idea is it partition all possible polynomials (and therefore their algebraic number roots) into a countable number of finite sets. This is a strange and think outside the box way to do it, but there are only a finite number of polynomial where the sum of the coeeficients and the degree is $N$ that's one finite set. The union for every $N$ will contain all possible polynomials
$endgroup$
– fleablood
Nov 27 '18 at 4:27




$begingroup$
The idea is it partition all possible polynomials (and therefore their algebraic number roots) into a countable number of finite sets. This is a strange and think outside the box way to do it, but there are only a finite number of polynomial where the sum of the coeeficients and the degree is $N$ that's one finite set. The union for every $N$ will contain all possible polynomials
$endgroup$
– fleablood
Nov 27 '18 at 4:27










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















2












$begingroup$

What Rudin is saying in his usual cryptic fashion is that you should associate to each $N$ a finite set of algebraic numbers (call it $X_N$), and then you should prove that {algebraic numbers} $subset bigcup X_N$.



For example, with $N=2$, you have just two possibilities for integer polynomials:
$n=1, a_0=1, a_1=0$, OR
$n=1, a_0=-1, a_1=0$
corresponding to the polynomials
$z$ and $-z$.



For $N=3$, you have
begin{align*}
n=1, a_0=1, a_1=1 \
n=1, a_0=-1, a_1=1 \
n=1, a_0=1, a_1=-1 \
n=1, a_0=-1, a_1=-1 \
n=2, a_0=1, a_1=0, a_0=0 \
n=2, a_0=-1, a_1=0, a_0=0 \
end{align*}

and all the polynomials which those represent.



Let $X_N$ be the roots corresponding to all the polynomials listed for a given $N$. By (# roots $leq$ degree), and the fact that there is a finite list of polynomials for each $N$, $X_N$ is finite. For instance, you can roughly bound $|X_2|leq2$ and $|X_3|leq 8$ above.



After you've proven that every algebraic number belongs to some $X_N$, you can use the fact that a countable union of countable (finite in this case) sets is countable.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Thanks--I'm still trying to figure out how to use essentially a counting argument to come up with an upper bound for the number of polynomials associated with each $N$ (as you came up with 8 for $N=3$). Also, given the issue of boundedness is at play here as opposed to the exact number of complex roots, I don't think FTA is necessary so much as the claim that a polynomial of degree $k$ has at most $k$ roots right?
    $endgroup$
    – Jessica
    Nov 27 '18 at 4:14










  • $begingroup$
    Whoops, I was grasping for the name of the fact that a degree $n$ polynomial has at most $n$ roots.
    $endgroup$
    – user25959
    Nov 27 '18 at 4:16










  • $begingroup$
    To see that the number of polynomials corresponding to $N$ is bounded, you should note that $n+|a_0|+cdots+|a_n|$ is a "partition" of $N$ and that's definitely finite. For example, an extremely rough bound on the number of partitions of $N$ is $N^N$
    $endgroup$
    – user25959
    Nov 27 '18 at 4:18










  • $begingroup$
    In our situation, the partitions actually include potentially zero terms. Given $N$, you can have at most $N+1$ summands, each of which takes values between $0 and N$. So the number of polynomials on our list will be at most $(N+1)^(N+1)$
    $endgroup$
    – user25959
    Nov 27 '18 at 4:30



















1












$begingroup$

This seems a bit perverse but if you can find the following sets:



For each $n in mathbb N$ there is a set $A_n$ containing at most some finite number of $k_n$ polynomials, and the polynomials are of some maximum $m_n$ degree then there is a set $B_n$ containing most $k_ncdot m_n$ algebraic numbers, and if we can further do this so that $U_{nin mathbb N}A_n$ will contain all possible polynomials then $U_{nin mathbb N}B_n$ will contain all possible algebraic numbers.



And that being a countable union of finite sets is countable.



So all we have to divide all the possible polynomials into these finite sets.



Okay, we can take a polynomial $a_nx^n + .... + a_0$ and come up with a number $N = n + |a_n| + |a_{n-1}| + .... + a_0$. And we'll simply put it in a set called $A_N$. As every polynomial will have such a number every polynomial will get placed and as each number $N$ can only have a finite number of degrees and coefficients adding up to $N$ each $A_N$ is finite.



Ta-da! We are done.



Now if you are like every student I have ever met, you will probably ask well why not just say: For each degree of a polynomial there are only a countable number of coefficients for that possition, so there are only a countable union of countably many coeficients to determine a countable number of polynomials.



I'm not sure why that's not the intended method. I suspect is there is one pitfall, in that is very easy to fall into the trap not noticing polynomials must be finite and making a false conclusion that the set of infinite sequence of integers is countable.






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    2 Answers
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    2 Answers
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    active

    oldest

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    $begingroup$

    What Rudin is saying in his usual cryptic fashion is that you should associate to each $N$ a finite set of algebraic numbers (call it $X_N$), and then you should prove that {algebraic numbers} $subset bigcup X_N$.



    For example, with $N=2$, you have just two possibilities for integer polynomials:
    $n=1, a_0=1, a_1=0$, OR
    $n=1, a_0=-1, a_1=0$
    corresponding to the polynomials
    $z$ and $-z$.



    For $N=3$, you have
    begin{align*}
    n=1, a_0=1, a_1=1 \
    n=1, a_0=-1, a_1=1 \
    n=1, a_0=1, a_1=-1 \
    n=1, a_0=-1, a_1=-1 \
    n=2, a_0=1, a_1=0, a_0=0 \
    n=2, a_0=-1, a_1=0, a_0=0 \
    end{align*}

    and all the polynomials which those represent.



    Let $X_N$ be the roots corresponding to all the polynomials listed for a given $N$. By (# roots $leq$ degree), and the fact that there is a finite list of polynomials for each $N$, $X_N$ is finite. For instance, you can roughly bound $|X_2|leq2$ and $|X_3|leq 8$ above.



    After you've proven that every algebraic number belongs to some $X_N$, you can use the fact that a countable union of countable (finite in this case) sets is countable.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      Thanks--I'm still trying to figure out how to use essentially a counting argument to come up with an upper bound for the number of polynomials associated with each $N$ (as you came up with 8 for $N=3$). Also, given the issue of boundedness is at play here as opposed to the exact number of complex roots, I don't think FTA is necessary so much as the claim that a polynomial of degree $k$ has at most $k$ roots right?
      $endgroup$
      – Jessica
      Nov 27 '18 at 4:14










    • $begingroup$
      Whoops, I was grasping for the name of the fact that a degree $n$ polynomial has at most $n$ roots.
      $endgroup$
      – user25959
      Nov 27 '18 at 4:16










    • $begingroup$
      To see that the number of polynomials corresponding to $N$ is bounded, you should note that $n+|a_0|+cdots+|a_n|$ is a "partition" of $N$ and that's definitely finite. For example, an extremely rough bound on the number of partitions of $N$ is $N^N$
      $endgroup$
      – user25959
      Nov 27 '18 at 4:18










    • $begingroup$
      In our situation, the partitions actually include potentially zero terms. Given $N$, you can have at most $N+1$ summands, each of which takes values between $0 and N$. So the number of polynomials on our list will be at most $(N+1)^(N+1)$
      $endgroup$
      – user25959
      Nov 27 '18 at 4:30
















    2












    $begingroup$

    What Rudin is saying in his usual cryptic fashion is that you should associate to each $N$ a finite set of algebraic numbers (call it $X_N$), and then you should prove that {algebraic numbers} $subset bigcup X_N$.



    For example, with $N=2$, you have just two possibilities for integer polynomials:
    $n=1, a_0=1, a_1=0$, OR
    $n=1, a_0=-1, a_1=0$
    corresponding to the polynomials
    $z$ and $-z$.



    For $N=3$, you have
    begin{align*}
    n=1, a_0=1, a_1=1 \
    n=1, a_0=-1, a_1=1 \
    n=1, a_0=1, a_1=-1 \
    n=1, a_0=-1, a_1=-1 \
    n=2, a_0=1, a_1=0, a_0=0 \
    n=2, a_0=-1, a_1=0, a_0=0 \
    end{align*}

    and all the polynomials which those represent.



    Let $X_N$ be the roots corresponding to all the polynomials listed for a given $N$. By (# roots $leq$ degree), and the fact that there is a finite list of polynomials for each $N$, $X_N$ is finite. For instance, you can roughly bound $|X_2|leq2$ and $|X_3|leq 8$ above.



    After you've proven that every algebraic number belongs to some $X_N$, you can use the fact that a countable union of countable (finite in this case) sets is countable.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      Thanks--I'm still trying to figure out how to use essentially a counting argument to come up with an upper bound for the number of polynomials associated with each $N$ (as you came up with 8 for $N=3$). Also, given the issue of boundedness is at play here as opposed to the exact number of complex roots, I don't think FTA is necessary so much as the claim that a polynomial of degree $k$ has at most $k$ roots right?
      $endgroup$
      – Jessica
      Nov 27 '18 at 4:14










    • $begingroup$
      Whoops, I was grasping for the name of the fact that a degree $n$ polynomial has at most $n$ roots.
      $endgroup$
      – user25959
      Nov 27 '18 at 4:16










    • $begingroup$
      To see that the number of polynomials corresponding to $N$ is bounded, you should note that $n+|a_0|+cdots+|a_n|$ is a "partition" of $N$ and that's definitely finite. For example, an extremely rough bound on the number of partitions of $N$ is $N^N$
      $endgroup$
      – user25959
      Nov 27 '18 at 4:18










    • $begingroup$
      In our situation, the partitions actually include potentially zero terms. Given $N$, you can have at most $N+1$ summands, each of which takes values between $0 and N$. So the number of polynomials on our list will be at most $(N+1)^(N+1)$
      $endgroup$
      – user25959
      Nov 27 '18 at 4:30














    2












    2








    2





    $begingroup$

    What Rudin is saying in his usual cryptic fashion is that you should associate to each $N$ a finite set of algebraic numbers (call it $X_N$), and then you should prove that {algebraic numbers} $subset bigcup X_N$.



    For example, with $N=2$, you have just two possibilities for integer polynomials:
    $n=1, a_0=1, a_1=0$, OR
    $n=1, a_0=-1, a_1=0$
    corresponding to the polynomials
    $z$ and $-z$.



    For $N=3$, you have
    begin{align*}
    n=1, a_0=1, a_1=1 \
    n=1, a_0=-1, a_1=1 \
    n=1, a_0=1, a_1=-1 \
    n=1, a_0=-1, a_1=-1 \
    n=2, a_0=1, a_1=0, a_0=0 \
    n=2, a_0=-1, a_1=0, a_0=0 \
    end{align*}

    and all the polynomials which those represent.



    Let $X_N$ be the roots corresponding to all the polynomials listed for a given $N$. By (# roots $leq$ degree), and the fact that there is a finite list of polynomials for each $N$, $X_N$ is finite. For instance, you can roughly bound $|X_2|leq2$ and $|X_3|leq 8$ above.



    After you've proven that every algebraic number belongs to some $X_N$, you can use the fact that a countable union of countable (finite in this case) sets is countable.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



    What Rudin is saying in his usual cryptic fashion is that you should associate to each $N$ a finite set of algebraic numbers (call it $X_N$), and then you should prove that {algebraic numbers} $subset bigcup X_N$.



    For example, with $N=2$, you have just two possibilities for integer polynomials:
    $n=1, a_0=1, a_1=0$, OR
    $n=1, a_0=-1, a_1=0$
    corresponding to the polynomials
    $z$ and $-z$.



    For $N=3$, you have
    begin{align*}
    n=1, a_0=1, a_1=1 \
    n=1, a_0=-1, a_1=1 \
    n=1, a_0=1, a_1=-1 \
    n=1, a_0=-1, a_1=-1 \
    n=2, a_0=1, a_1=0, a_0=0 \
    n=2, a_0=-1, a_1=0, a_0=0 \
    end{align*}

    and all the polynomials which those represent.



    Let $X_N$ be the roots corresponding to all the polynomials listed for a given $N$. By (# roots $leq$ degree), and the fact that there is a finite list of polynomials for each $N$, $X_N$ is finite. For instance, you can roughly bound $|X_2|leq2$ and $|X_3|leq 8$ above.



    After you've proven that every algebraic number belongs to some $X_N$, you can use the fact that a countable union of countable (finite in this case) sets is countable.







    share|cite|improve this answer














    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer








    edited Nov 27 '18 at 4:15

























    answered Nov 27 '18 at 3:56









    user25959user25959

    1,573816




    1,573816












    • $begingroup$
      Thanks--I'm still trying to figure out how to use essentially a counting argument to come up with an upper bound for the number of polynomials associated with each $N$ (as you came up with 8 for $N=3$). Also, given the issue of boundedness is at play here as opposed to the exact number of complex roots, I don't think FTA is necessary so much as the claim that a polynomial of degree $k$ has at most $k$ roots right?
      $endgroup$
      – Jessica
      Nov 27 '18 at 4:14










    • $begingroup$
      Whoops, I was grasping for the name of the fact that a degree $n$ polynomial has at most $n$ roots.
      $endgroup$
      – user25959
      Nov 27 '18 at 4:16










    • $begingroup$
      To see that the number of polynomials corresponding to $N$ is bounded, you should note that $n+|a_0|+cdots+|a_n|$ is a "partition" of $N$ and that's definitely finite. For example, an extremely rough bound on the number of partitions of $N$ is $N^N$
      $endgroup$
      – user25959
      Nov 27 '18 at 4:18










    • $begingroup$
      In our situation, the partitions actually include potentially zero terms. Given $N$, you can have at most $N+1$ summands, each of which takes values between $0 and N$. So the number of polynomials on our list will be at most $(N+1)^(N+1)$
      $endgroup$
      – user25959
      Nov 27 '18 at 4:30


















    • $begingroup$
      Thanks--I'm still trying to figure out how to use essentially a counting argument to come up with an upper bound for the number of polynomials associated with each $N$ (as you came up with 8 for $N=3$). Also, given the issue of boundedness is at play here as opposed to the exact number of complex roots, I don't think FTA is necessary so much as the claim that a polynomial of degree $k$ has at most $k$ roots right?
      $endgroup$
      – Jessica
      Nov 27 '18 at 4:14










    • $begingroup$
      Whoops, I was grasping for the name of the fact that a degree $n$ polynomial has at most $n$ roots.
      $endgroup$
      – user25959
      Nov 27 '18 at 4:16










    • $begingroup$
      To see that the number of polynomials corresponding to $N$ is bounded, you should note that $n+|a_0|+cdots+|a_n|$ is a "partition" of $N$ and that's definitely finite. For example, an extremely rough bound on the number of partitions of $N$ is $N^N$
      $endgroup$
      – user25959
      Nov 27 '18 at 4:18










    • $begingroup$
      In our situation, the partitions actually include potentially zero terms. Given $N$, you can have at most $N+1$ summands, each of which takes values between $0 and N$. So the number of polynomials on our list will be at most $(N+1)^(N+1)$
      $endgroup$
      – user25959
      Nov 27 '18 at 4:30
















    $begingroup$
    Thanks--I'm still trying to figure out how to use essentially a counting argument to come up with an upper bound for the number of polynomials associated with each $N$ (as you came up with 8 for $N=3$). Also, given the issue of boundedness is at play here as opposed to the exact number of complex roots, I don't think FTA is necessary so much as the claim that a polynomial of degree $k$ has at most $k$ roots right?
    $endgroup$
    – Jessica
    Nov 27 '18 at 4:14




    $begingroup$
    Thanks--I'm still trying to figure out how to use essentially a counting argument to come up with an upper bound for the number of polynomials associated with each $N$ (as you came up with 8 for $N=3$). Also, given the issue of boundedness is at play here as opposed to the exact number of complex roots, I don't think FTA is necessary so much as the claim that a polynomial of degree $k$ has at most $k$ roots right?
    $endgroup$
    – Jessica
    Nov 27 '18 at 4:14












    $begingroup$
    Whoops, I was grasping for the name of the fact that a degree $n$ polynomial has at most $n$ roots.
    $endgroup$
    – user25959
    Nov 27 '18 at 4:16




    $begingroup$
    Whoops, I was grasping for the name of the fact that a degree $n$ polynomial has at most $n$ roots.
    $endgroup$
    – user25959
    Nov 27 '18 at 4:16












    $begingroup$
    To see that the number of polynomials corresponding to $N$ is bounded, you should note that $n+|a_0|+cdots+|a_n|$ is a "partition" of $N$ and that's definitely finite. For example, an extremely rough bound on the number of partitions of $N$ is $N^N$
    $endgroup$
    – user25959
    Nov 27 '18 at 4:18




    $begingroup$
    To see that the number of polynomials corresponding to $N$ is bounded, you should note that $n+|a_0|+cdots+|a_n|$ is a "partition" of $N$ and that's definitely finite. For example, an extremely rough bound on the number of partitions of $N$ is $N^N$
    $endgroup$
    – user25959
    Nov 27 '18 at 4:18












    $begingroup$
    In our situation, the partitions actually include potentially zero terms. Given $N$, you can have at most $N+1$ summands, each of which takes values between $0 and N$. So the number of polynomials on our list will be at most $(N+1)^(N+1)$
    $endgroup$
    – user25959
    Nov 27 '18 at 4:30




    $begingroup$
    In our situation, the partitions actually include potentially zero terms. Given $N$, you can have at most $N+1$ summands, each of which takes values between $0 and N$. So the number of polynomials on our list will be at most $(N+1)^(N+1)$
    $endgroup$
    – user25959
    Nov 27 '18 at 4:30











    1












    $begingroup$

    This seems a bit perverse but if you can find the following sets:



    For each $n in mathbb N$ there is a set $A_n$ containing at most some finite number of $k_n$ polynomials, and the polynomials are of some maximum $m_n$ degree then there is a set $B_n$ containing most $k_ncdot m_n$ algebraic numbers, and if we can further do this so that $U_{nin mathbb N}A_n$ will contain all possible polynomials then $U_{nin mathbb N}B_n$ will contain all possible algebraic numbers.



    And that being a countable union of finite sets is countable.



    So all we have to divide all the possible polynomials into these finite sets.



    Okay, we can take a polynomial $a_nx^n + .... + a_0$ and come up with a number $N = n + |a_n| + |a_{n-1}| + .... + a_0$. And we'll simply put it in a set called $A_N$. As every polynomial will have such a number every polynomial will get placed and as each number $N$ can only have a finite number of degrees and coefficients adding up to $N$ each $A_N$ is finite.



    Ta-da! We are done.



    Now if you are like every student I have ever met, you will probably ask well why not just say: For each degree of a polynomial there are only a countable number of coefficients for that possition, so there are only a countable union of countably many coeficients to determine a countable number of polynomials.



    I'm not sure why that's not the intended method. I suspect is there is one pitfall, in that is very easy to fall into the trap not noticing polynomials must be finite and making a false conclusion that the set of infinite sequence of integers is countable.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$


















      1












      $begingroup$

      This seems a bit perverse but if you can find the following sets:



      For each $n in mathbb N$ there is a set $A_n$ containing at most some finite number of $k_n$ polynomials, and the polynomials are of some maximum $m_n$ degree then there is a set $B_n$ containing most $k_ncdot m_n$ algebraic numbers, and if we can further do this so that $U_{nin mathbb N}A_n$ will contain all possible polynomials then $U_{nin mathbb N}B_n$ will contain all possible algebraic numbers.



      And that being a countable union of finite sets is countable.



      So all we have to divide all the possible polynomials into these finite sets.



      Okay, we can take a polynomial $a_nx^n + .... + a_0$ and come up with a number $N = n + |a_n| + |a_{n-1}| + .... + a_0$. And we'll simply put it in a set called $A_N$. As every polynomial will have such a number every polynomial will get placed and as each number $N$ can only have a finite number of degrees and coefficients adding up to $N$ each $A_N$ is finite.



      Ta-da! We are done.



      Now if you are like every student I have ever met, you will probably ask well why not just say: For each degree of a polynomial there are only a countable number of coefficients for that possition, so there are only a countable union of countably many coeficients to determine a countable number of polynomials.



      I'm not sure why that's not the intended method. I suspect is there is one pitfall, in that is very easy to fall into the trap not noticing polynomials must be finite and making a false conclusion that the set of infinite sequence of integers is countable.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$
















        1












        1








        1





        $begingroup$

        This seems a bit perverse but if you can find the following sets:



        For each $n in mathbb N$ there is a set $A_n$ containing at most some finite number of $k_n$ polynomials, and the polynomials are of some maximum $m_n$ degree then there is a set $B_n$ containing most $k_ncdot m_n$ algebraic numbers, and if we can further do this so that $U_{nin mathbb N}A_n$ will contain all possible polynomials then $U_{nin mathbb N}B_n$ will contain all possible algebraic numbers.



        And that being a countable union of finite sets is countable.



        So all we have to divide all the possible polynomials into these finite sets.



        Okay, we can take a polynomial $a_nx^n + .... + a_0$ and come up with a number $N = n + |a_n| + |a_{n-1}| + .... + a_0$. And we'll simply put it in a set called $A_N$. As every polynomial will have such a number every polynomial will get placed and as each number $N$ can only have a finite number of degrees and coefficients adding up to $N$ each $A_N$ is finite.



        Ta-da! We are done.



        Now if you are like every student I have ever met, you will probably ask well why not just say: For each degree of a polynomial there are only a countable number of coefficients for that possition, so there are only a countable union of countably many coeficients to determine a countable number of polynomials.



        I'm not sure why that's not the intended method. I suspect is there is one pitfall, in that is very easy to fall into the trap not noticing polynomials must be finite and making a false conclusion that the set of infinite sequence of integers is countable.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        This seems a bit perverse but if you can find the following sets:



        For each $n in mathbb N$ there is a set $A_n$ containing at most some finite number of $k_n$ polynomials, and the polynomials are of some maximum $m_n$ degree then there is a set $B_n$ containing most $k_ncdot m_n$ algebraic numbers, and if we can further do this so that $U_{nin mathbb N}A_n$ will contain all possible polynomials then $U_{nin mathbb N}B_n$ will contain all possible algebraic numbers.



        And that being a countable union of finite sets is countable.



        So all we have to divide all the possible polynomials into these finite sets.



        Okay, we can take a polynomial $a_nx^n + .... + a_0$ and come up with a number $N = n + |a_n| + |a_{n-1}| + .... + a_0$. And we'll simply put it in a set called $A_N$. As every polynomial will have such a number every polynomial will get placed and as each number $N$ can only have a finite number of degrees and coefficients adding up to $N$ each $A_N$ is finite.



        Ta-da! We are done.



        Now if you are like every student I have ever met, you will probably ask well why not just say: For each degree of a polynomial there are only a countable number of coefficients for that possition, so there are only a countable union of countably many coeficients to determine a countable number of polynomials.



        I'm not sure why that's not the intended method. I suspect is there is one pitfall, in that is very easy to fall into the trap not noticing polynomials must be finite and making a false conclusion that the set of infinite sequence of integers is countable.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered Nov 27 '18 at 4:56









        fleabloodfleablood

        69.4k22685




        69.4k22685






























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