Is the set of piecewise $C^1([a,b])$ functions complete with $C^1$ norm?
up vote
-2
down vote
favorite
Here's the $C^1$ norm :
$|| f || = sup | f | + sup | f '|$
where the supremum is taken on $[a, b]$.
Please, justify your answer (proofs or counterexamples are needed).
functional-analysis banach-spaces normed-spaces
add a comment |
up vote
-2
down vote
favorite
Here's the $C^1$ norm :
$|| f || = sup | f | + sup | f '|$
where the supremum is taken on $[a, b]$.
Please, justify your answer (proofs or counterexamples are needed).
functional-analysis banach-spaces normed-spaces
Not if "piecewise" means "finitely many pieces".
– zhw.
Oct 5 '17 at 20:49
1
Welcome to stackexchange. You will get better answers if you show what you have done so far on a problem and where you are stuck, rather than just asking for a proof. Do that by editing the question, not in comments. Learn how to format mathematics with mathjax (math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5020/…). You also seem to have asked the same question twice. Please delete one of them.
– Ethan Bolker
Oct 7 '17 at 13:29
@Pambr: This forum has been used in the past by students to cheat on their homework and/or exams. This is one of the reasons why the accepted etiquette is now the one Ethan kindly pointed out. There are many discussions on this in the Meta section of the forum.
– Giuseppe Negro
Oct 7 '17 at 17:53
add a comment |
up vote
-2
down vote
favorite
up vote
-2
down vote
favorite
Here's the $C^1$ norm :
$|| f || = sup | f | + sup | f '|$
where the supremum is taken on $[a, b]$.
Please, justify your answer (proofs or counterexamples are needed).
functional-analysis banach-spaces normed-spaces
Here's the $C^1$ norm :
$|| f || = sup | f | + sup | f '|$
where the supremum is taken on $[a, b]$.
Please, justify your answer (proofs or counterexamples are needed).
functional-analysis banach-spaces normed-spaces
functional-analysis banach-spaces normed-spaces
edited Nov 14 at 22:16
Alex Pozo
496214
496214
asked Oct 5 '17 at 20:40
R. Queneau
35
35
Not if "piecewise" means "finitely many pieces".
– zhw.
Oct 5 '17 at 20:49
1
Welcome to stackexchange. You will get better answers if you show what you have done so far on a problem and where you are stuck, rather than just asking for a proof. Do that by editing the question, not in comments. Learn how to format mathematics with mathjax (math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5020/…). You also seem to have asked the same question twice. Please delete one of them.
– Ethan Bolker
Oct 7 '17 at 13:29
@Pambr: This forum has been used in the past by students to cheat on their homework and/or exams. This is one of the reasons why the accepted etiquette is now the one Ethan kindly pointed out. There are many discussions on this in the Meta section of the forum.
– Giuseppe Negro
Oct 7 '17 at 17:53
add a comment |
Not if "piecewise" means "finitely many pieces".
– zhw.
Oct 5 '17 at 20:49
1
Welcome to stackexchange. You will get better answers if you show what you have done so far on a problem and where you are stuck, rather than just asking for a proof. Do that by editing the question, not in comments. Learn how to format mathematics with mathjax (math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5020/…). You also seem to have asked the same question twice. Please delete one of them.
– Ethan Bolker
Oct 7 '17 at 13:29
@Pambr: This forum has been used in the past by students to cheat on their homework and/or exams. This is one of the reasons why the accepted etiquette is now the one Ethan kindly pointed out. There are many discussions on this in the Meta section of the forum.
– Giuseppe Negro
Oct 7 '17 at 17:53
Not if "piecewise" means "finitely many pieces".
– zhw.
Oct 5 '17 at 20:49
Not if "piecewise" means "finitely many pieces".
– zhw.
Oct 5 '17 at 20:49
1
1
Welcome to stackexchange. You will get better answers if you show what you have done so far on a problem and where you are stuck, rather than just asking for a proof. Do that by editing the question, not in comments. Learn how to format mathematics with mathjax (math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5020/…). You also seem to have asked the same question twice. Please delete one of them.
– Ethan Bolker
Oct 7 '17 at 13:29
Welcome to stackexchange. You will get better answers if you show what you have done so far on a problem and where you are stuck, rather than just asking for a proof. Do that by editing the question, not in comments. Learn how to format mathematics with mathjax (math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5020/…). You also seem to have asked the same question twice. Please delete one of them.
– Ethan Bolker
Oct 7 '17 at 13:29
@Pambr: This forum has been used in the past by students to cheat on their homework and/or exams. This is one of the reasons why the accepted etiquette is now the one Ethan kindly pointed out. There are many discussions on this in the Meta section of the forum.
– Giuseppe Negro
Oct 7 '17 at 17:53
@Pambr: This forum has been used in the past by students to cheat on their homework and/or exams. This is one of the reasons why the accepted etiquette is now the one Ethan kindly pointed out. There are many discussions on this in the Meta section of the forum.
– Giuseppe Negro
Oct 7 '17 at 17:53
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
up vote
0
down vote
accepted
Choose any sequence $a_0=b > a_1 > a_ 2 > dots to a.$ Define $f$ on $(a,b]$ by letting $f$ be a tent of height $h_n$ over $[a_n,a_{n-1}], n=1,2,dots.$ Do this so that the slopes of the tents $to 0$ in absolute value (i.e., so that $h_n/(a_{n-1}-a_n) to 0$). Set $f(a) = 0.$ Then $fnotin C^1_{pw}.$
Now define $f_n = chi_{[a_n,a_0]}cdot f, n=1,2,dots $ Then $f_n in C^1_{pw}$ for each $n.$ Note that $f_n to f$ pointwise on $[a,b].$ If $m< n,$ then $f_n-f_m$ is just the set of tents that live on $[a_n,a_m],$ with $f_n-f_m= 0$ everywhere else. It follows that $(f_n)$ is Cauchy in the $C^1_{pw}$ norm.
Could $f_n$ converge to some $g$ in $C^1_{pw}?$ Suppose it does. Then $sup_{[a,b]}|f_n - g| to 0.$ Thus $g$ is the pointwise limit of the $f_n.$ But we saw earlier that $f$ is the pointwise limit of the $f_n.$ We conclude $f=g$ everywhere, which is a contradiction. Therefore $C^1_{pw}$ is not complete.
I think OP wants continuous piecewise functions! It should be better if you modify $f_n$ slightly.
– Red shoes
Oct 7 '17 at 17:38
@Redshoes Ah, there was a typo. Now they are continuous.
– zhw.
Oct 7 '17 at 17:41
does $f(0)=0 $ mean $f(a) =0$ ? and also $f_n = chi_{[a_n,a_0]}$ has jump at $a_n$.
– Red shoes
Oct 7 '17 at 17:54
@Redshoes Yes $f(a)=0$ thanks, another typo. Note that I fixed $f_n.$
– zhw.
Oct 7 '17 at 17:56
@ zhw : Your counterexample seems to work well ! Thank you !
– R. Queneau
Oct 7 '17 at 18:19
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
A counterexample may be:
$forall x in [0;frac{1}{2}], f_{1}(x)=0$
and $forall x in [frac{1}{2};1], f_{1}(x)=frac{1}{2^{0}}$
$forall x in [0;frac{2^{n}-1}{2^{n}}], f_{n}(x)=f_{n-1}(x)$ and $forall x in [frac{2^{n}-1}{2^{n}};1], f_{n}(x)=sum_{i=0}^{n-1}frac{1}{2^{i}}$
Alrighty... I should have known!
– Julien
Oct 7 '17 at 18:44
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
0
down vote
accepted
Choose any sequence $a_0=b > a_1 > a_ 2 > dots to a.$ Define $f$ on $(a,b]$ by letting $f$ be a tent of height $h_n$ over $[a_n,a_{n-1}], n=1,2,dots.$ Do this so that the slopes of the tents $to 0$ in absolute value (i.e., so that $h_n/(a_{n-1}-a_n) to 0$). Set $f(a) = 0.$ Then $fnotin C^1_{pw}.$
Now define $f_n = chi_{[a_n,a_0]}cdot f, n=1,2,dots $ Then $f_n in C^1_{pw}$ for each $n.$ Note that $f_n to f$ pointwise on $[a,b].$ If $m< n,$ then $f_n-f_m$ is just the set of tents that live on $[a_n,a_m],$ with $f_n-f_m= 0$ everywhere else. It follows that $(f_n)$ is Cauchy in the $C^1_{pw}$ norm.
Could $f_n$ converge to some $g$ in $C^1_{pw}?$ Suppose it does. Then $sup_{[a,b]}|f_n - g| to 0.$ Thus $g$ is the pointwise limit of the $f_n.$ But we saw earlier that $f$ is the pointwise limit of the $f_n.$ We conclude $f=g$ everywhere, which is a contradiction. Therefore $C^1_{pw}$ is not complete.
I think OP wants continuous piecewise functions! It should be better if you modify $f_n$ slightly.
– Red shoes
Oct 7 '17 at 17:38
@Redshoes Ah, there was a typo. Now they are continuous.
– zhw.
Oct 7 '17 at 17:41
does $f(0)=0 $ mean $f(a) =0$ ? and also $f_n = chi_{[a_n,a_0]}$ has jump at $a_n$.
– Red shoes
Oct 7 '17 at 17:54
@Redshoes Yes $f(a)=0$ thanks, another typo. Note that I fixed $f_n.$
– zhw.
Oct 7 '17 at 17:56
@ zhw : Your counterexample seems to work well ! Thank you !
– R. Queneau
Oct 7 '17 at 18:19
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
accepted
Choose any sequence $a_0=b > a_1 > a_ 2 > dots to a.$ Define $f$ on $(a,b]$ by letting $f$ be a tent of height $h_n$ over $[a_n,a_{n-1}], n=1,2,dots.$ Do this so that the slopes of the tents $to 0$ in absolute value (i.e., so that $h_n/(a_{n-1}-a_n) to 0$). Set $f(a) = 0.$ Then $fnotin C^1_{pw}.$
Now define $f_n = chi_{[a_n,a_0]}cdot f, n=1,2,dots $ Then $f_n in C^1_{pw}$ for each $n.$ Note that $f_n to f$ pointwise on $[a,b].$ If $m< n,$ then $f_n-f_m$ is just the set of tents that live on $[a_n,a_m],$ with $f_n-f_m= 0$ everywhere else. It follows that $(f_n)$ is Cauchy in the $C^1_{pw}$ norm.
Could $f_n$ converge to some $g$ in $C^1_{pw}?$ Suppose it does. Then $sup_{[a,b]}|f_n - g| to 0.$ Thus $g$ is the pointwise limit of the $f_n.$ But we saw earlier that $f$ is the pointwise limit of the $f_n.$ We conclude $f=g$ everywhere, which is a contradiction. Therefore $C^1_{pw}$ is not complete.
I think OP wants continuous piecewise functions! It should be better if you modify $f_n$ slightly.
– Red shoes
Oct 7 '17 at 17:38
@Redshoes Ah, there was a typo. Now they are continuous.
– zhw.
Oct 7 '17 at 17:41
does $f(0)=0 $ mean $f(a) =0$ ? and also $f_n = chi_{[a_n,a_0]}$ has jump at $a_n$.
– Red shoes
Oct 7 '17 at 17:54
@Redshoes Yes $f(a)=0$ thanks, another typo. Note that I fixed $f_n.$
– zhw.
Oct 7 '17 at 17:56
@ zhw : Your counterexample seems to work well ! Thank you !
– R. Queneau
Oct 7 '17 at 18:19
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
accepted
up vote
0
down vote
accepted
Choose any sequence $a_0=b > a_1 > a_ 2 > dots to a.$ Define $f$ on $(a,b]$ by letting $f$ be a tent of height $h_n$ over $[a_n,a_{n-1}], n=1,2,dots.$ Do this so that the slopes of the tents $to 0$ in absolute value (i.e., so that $h_n/(a_{n-1}-a_n) to 0$). Set $f(a) = 0.$ Then $fnotin C^1_{pw}.$
Now define $f_n = chi_{[a_n,a_0]}cdot f, n=1,2,dots $ Then $f_n in C^1_{pw}$ for each $n.$ Note that $f_n to f$ pointwise on $[a,b].$ If $m< n,$ then $f_n-f_m$ is just the set of tents that live on $[a_n,a_m],$ with $f_n-f_m= 0$ everywhere else. It follows that $(f_n)$ is Cauchy in the $C^1_{pw}$ norm.
Could $f_n$ converge to some $g$ in $C^1_{pw}?$ Suppose it does. Then $sup_{[a,b]}|f_n - g| to 0.$ Thus $g$ is the pointwise limit of the $f_n.$ But we saw earlier that $f$ is the pointwise limit of the $f_n.$ We conclude $f=g$ everywhere, which is a contradiction. Therefore $C^1_{pw}$ is not complete.
Choose any sequence $a_0=b > a_1 > a_ 2 > dots to a.$ Define $f$ on $(a,b]$ by letting $f$ be a tent of height $h_n$ over $[a_n,a_{n-1}], n=1,2,dots.$ Do this so that the slopes of the tents $to 0$ in absolute value (i.e., so that $h_n/(a_{n-1}-a_n) to 0$). Set $f(a) = 0.$ Then $fnotin C^1_{pw}.$
Now define $f_n = chi_{[a_n,a_0]}cdot f, n=1,2,dots $ Then $f_n in C^1_{pw}$ for each $n.$ Note that $f_n to f$ pointwise on $[a,b].$ If $m< n,$ then $f_n-f_m$ is just the set of tents that live on $[a_n,a_m],$ with $f_n-f_m= 0$ everywhere else. It follows that $(f_n)$ is Cauchy in the $C^1_{pw}$ norm.
Could $f_n$ converge to some $g$ in $C^1_{pw}?$ Suppose it does. Then $sup_{[a,b]}|f_n - g| to 0.$ Thus $g$ is the pointwise limit of the $f_n.$ But we saw earlier that $f$ is the pointwise limit of the $f_n.$ We conclude $f=g$ everywhere, which is a contradiction. Therefore $C^1_{pw}$ is not complete.
edited Oct 7 '17 at 18:30
answered Oct 7 '17 at 17:16
zhw.
70.4k43075
70.4k43075
I think OP wants continuous piecewise functions! It should be better if you modify $f_n$ slightly.
– Red shoes
Oct 7 '17 at 17:38
@Redshoes Ah, there was a typo. Now they are continuous.
– zhw.
Oct 7 '17 at 17:41
does $f(0)=0 $ mean $f(a) =0$ ? and also $f_n = chi_{[a_n,a_0]}$ has jump at $a_n$.
– Red shoes
Oct 7 '17 at 17:54
@Redshoes Yes $f(a)=0$ thanks, another typo. Note that I fixed $f_n.$
– zhw.
Oct 7 '17 at 17:56
@ zhw : Your counterexample seems to work well ! Thank you !
– R. Queneau
Oct 7 '17 at 18:19
add a comment |
I think OP wants continuous piecewise functions! It should be better if you modify $f_n$ slightly.
– Red shoes
Oct 7 '17 at 17:38
@Redshoes Ah, there was a typo. Now they are continuous.
– zhw.
Oct 7 '17 at 17:41
does $f(0)=0 $ mean $f(a) =0$ ? and also $f_n = chi_{[a_n,a_0]}$ has jump at $a_n$.
– Red shoes
Oct 7 '17 at 17:54
@Redshoes Yes $f(a)=0$ thanks, another typo. Note that I fixed $f_n.$
– zhw.
Oct 7 '17 at 17:56
@ zhw : Your counterexample seems to work well ! Thank you !
– R. Queneau
Oct 7 '17 at 18:19
I think OP wants continuous piecewise functions! It should be better if you modify $f_n$ slightly.
– Red shoes
Oct 7 '17 at 17:38
I think OP wants continuous piecewise functions! It should be better if you modify $f_n$ slightly.
– Red shoes
Oct 7 '17 at 17:38
@Redshoes Ah, there was a typo. Now they are continuous.
– zhw.
Oct 7 '17 at 17:41
@Redshoes Ah, there was a typo. Now they are continuous.
– zhw.
Oct 7 '17 at 17:41
does $f(0)=0 $ mean $f(a) =0$ ? and also $f_n = chi_{[a_n,a_0]}$ has jump at $a_n$.
– Red shoes
Oct 7 '17 at 17:54
does $f(0)=0 $ mean $f(a) =0$ ? and also $f_n = chi_{[a_n,a_0]}$ has jump at $a_n$.
– Red shoes
Oct 7 '17 at 17:54
@Redshoes Yes $f(a)=0$ thanks, another typo. Note that I fixed $f_n.$
– zhw.
Oct 7 '17 at 17:56
@Redshoes Yes $f(a)=0$ thanks, another typo. Note that I fixed $f_n.$
– zhw.
Oct 7 '17 at 17:56
@ zhw : Your counterexample seems to work well ! Thank you !
– R. Queneau
Oct 7 '17 at 18:19
@ zhw : Your counterexample seems to work well ! Thank you !
– R. Queneau
Oct 7 '17 at 18:19
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
A counterexample may be:
$forall x in [0;frac{1}{2}], f_{1}(x)=0$
and $forall x in [frac{1}{2};1], f_{1}(x)=frac{1}{2^{0}}$
$forall x in [0;frac{2^{n}-1}{2^{n}}], f_{n}(x)=f_{n-1}(x)$ and $forall x in [frac{2^{n}-1}{2^{n}};1], f_{n}(x)=sum_{i=0}^{n-1}frac{1}{2^{i}}$
Alrighty... I should have known!
– Julien
Oct 7 '17 at 18:44
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
A counterexample may be:
$forall x in [0;frac{1}{2}], f_{1}(x)=0$
and $forall x in [frac{1}{2};1], f_{1}(x)=frac{1}{2^{0}}$
$forall x in [0;frac{2^{n}-1}{2^{n}}], f_{n}(x)=f_{n-1}(x)$ and $forall x in [frac{2^{n}-1}{2^{n}};1], f_{n}(x)=sum_{i=0}^{n-1}frac{1}{2^{i}}$
Alrighty... I should have known!
– Julien
Oct 7 '17 at 18:44
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
A counterexample may be:
$forall x in [0;frac{1}{2}], f_{1}(x)=0$
and $forall x in [frac{1}{2};1], f_{1}(x)=frac{1}{2^{0}}$
$forall x in [0;frac{2^{n}-1}{2^{n}}], f_{n}(x)=f_{n-1}(x)$ and $forall x in [frac{2^{n}-1}{2^{n}};1], f_{n}(x)=sum_{i=0}^{n-1}frac{1}{2^{i}}$
A counterexample may be:
$forall x in [0;frac{1}{2}], f_{1}(x)=0$
and $forall x in [frac{1}{2};1], f_{1}(x)=frac{1}{2^{0}}$
$forall x in [0;frac{2^{n}-1}{2^{n}}], f_{n}(x)=f_{n-1}(x)$ and $forall x in [frac{2^{n}-1}{2^{n}};1], f_{n}(x)=sum_{i=0}^{n-1}frac{1}{2^{i}}$
answered Oct 7 '17 at 14:38
Julien
228113
228113
Alrighty... I should have known!
– Julien
Oct 7 '17 at 18:44
add a comment |
Alrighty... I should have known!
– Julien
Oct 7 '17 at 18:44
Alrighty... I should have known!
– Julien
Oct 7 '17 at 18:44
Alrighty... I should have known!
– Julien
Oct 7 '17 at 18:44
add a comment |
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f2459493%2fis-the-set-of-piecewise-c1a-b-functions-complete-with-c1-norm%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Not if "piecewise" means "finitely many pieces".
– zhw.
Oct 5 '17 at 20:49
1
Welcome to stackexchange. You will get better answers if you show what you have done so far on a problem and where you are stuck, rather than just asking for a proof. Do that by editing the question, not in comments. Learn how to format mathematics with mathjax (math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5020/…). You also seem to have asked the same question twice. Please delete one of them.
– Ethan Bolker
Oct 7 '17 at 13:29
@Pambr: This forum has been used in the past by students to cheat on their homework and/or exams. This is one of the reasons why the accepted etiquette is now the one Ethan kindly pointed out. There are many discussions on this in the Meta section of the forum.
– Giuseppe Negro
Oct 7 '17 at 17:53