Is the set of piecewise $C^1([a,b])$ functions complete with $C^1$ norm?











up vote
-2
down vote

favorite












Here's the $C^1$ norm :



$|| f || = sup | f | + sup | f '|$



where the supremum is taken on $[a, b]$.



Please, justify your answer (proofs or counterexamples are needed).










share|cite|improve this question
























  • Not if "piecewise" means "finitely many pieces".
    – zhw.
    Oct 5 '17 at 20:49








  • 1




    Welcome to stackexchange. You will get better answers if you show what you have done so far on a problem and where you are stuck, rather than just asking for a proof. Do that by editing the question, not in comments. Learn how to format mathematics with mathjax (math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5020/…). You also seem to have asked the same question twice. Please delete one of them.
    – Ethan Bolker
    Oct 7 '17 at 13:29










  • @Pambr: This forum has been used in the past by students to cheat on their homework and/or exams. This is one of the reasons why the accepted etiquette is now the one Ethan kindly pointed out. There are many discussions on this in the Meta section of the forum.
    – Giuseppe Negro
    Oct 7 '17 at 17:53

















up vote
-2
down vote

favorite












Here's the $C^1$ norm :



$|| f || = sup | f | + sup | f '|$



where the supremum is taken on $[a, b]$.



Please, justify your answer (proofs or counterexamples are needed).










share|cite|improve this question
























  • Not if "piecewise" means "finitely many pieces".
    – zhw.
    Oct 5 '17 at 20:49








  • 1




    Welcome to stackexchange. You will get better answers if you show what you have done so far on a problem and where you are stuck, rather than just asking for a proof. Do that by editing the question, not in comments. Learn how to format mathematics with mathjax (math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5020/…). You also seem to have asked the same question twice. Please delete one of them.
    – Ethan Bolker
    Oct 7 '17 at 13:29










  • @Pambr: This forum has been used in the past by students to cheat on their homework and/or exams. This is one of the reasons why the accepted etiquette is now the one Ethan kindly pointed out. There are many discussions on this in the Meta section of the forum.
    – Giuseppe Negro
    Oct 7 '17 at 17:53















up vote
-2
down vote

favorite









up vote
-2
down vote

favorite











Here's the $C^1$ norm :



$|| f || = sup | f | + sup | f '|$



where the supremum is taken on $[a, b]$.



Please, justify your answer (proofs or counterexamples are needed).










share|cite|improve this question















Here's the $C^1$ norm :



$|| f || = sup | f | + sup | f '|$



where the supremum is taken on $[a, b]$.



Please, justify your answer (proofs or counterexamples are needed).







functional-analysis banach-spaces normed-spaces






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Nov 14 at 22:16









Alex Pozo

496214




496214










asked Oct 5 '17 at 20:40









R. Queneau

35




35












  • Not if "piecewise" means "finitely many pieces".
    – zhw.
    Oct 5 '17 at 20:49








  • 1




    Welcome to stackexchange. You will get better answers if you show what you have done so far on a problem and where you are stuck, rather than just asking for a proof. Do that by editing the question, not in comments. Learn how to format mathematics with mathjax (math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5020/…). You also seem to have asked the same question twice. Please delete one of them.
    – Ethan Bolker
    Oct 7 '17 at 13:29










  • @Pambr: This forum has been used in the past by students to cheat on their homework and/or exams. This is one of the reasons why the accepted etiquette is now the one Ethan kindly pointed out. There are many discussions on this in the Meta section of the forum.
    – Giuseppe Negro
    Oct 7 '17 at 17:53




















  • Not if "piecewise" means "finitely many pieces".
    – zhw.
    Oct 5 '17 at 20:49








  • 1




    Welcome to stackexchange. You will get better answers if you show what you have done so far on a problem and where you are stuck, rather than just asking for a proof. Do that by editing the question, not in comments. Learn how to format mathematics with mathjax (math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5020/…). You also seem to have asked the same question twice. Please delete one of them.
    – Ethan Bolker
    Oct 7 '17 at 13:29










  • @Pambr: This forum has been used in the past by students to cheat on their homework and/or exams. This is one of the reasons why the accepted etiquette is now the one Ethan kindly pointed out. There are many discussions on this in the Meta section of the forum.
    – Giuseppe Negro
    Oct 7 '17 at 17:53


















Not if "piecewise" means "finitely many pieces".
– zhw.
Oct 5 '17 at 20:49






Not if "piecewise" means "finitely many pieces".
– zhw.
Oct 5 '17 at 20:49






1




1




Welcome to stackexchange. You will get better answers if you show what you have done so far on a problem and where you are stuck, rather than just asking for a proof. Do that by editing the question, not in comments. Learn how to format mathematics with mathjax (math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5020/…). You also seem to have asked the same question twice. Please delete one of them.
– Ethan Bolker
Oct 7 '17 at 13:29




Welcome to stackexchange. You will get better answers if you show what you have done so far on a problem and where you are stuck, rather than just asking for a proof. Do that by editing the question, not in comments. Learn how to format mathematics with mathjax (math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5020/…). You also seem to have asked the same question twice. Please delete one of them.
– Ethan Bolker
Oct 7 '17 at 13:29












@Pambr: This forum has been used in the past by students to cheat on their homework and/or exams. This is one of the reasons why the accepted etiquette is now the one Ethan kindly pointed out. There are many discussions on this in the Meta section of the forum.
– Giuseppe Negro
Oct 7 '17 at 17:53






@Pambr: This forum has been used in the past by students to cheat on their homework and/or exams. This is one of the reasons why the accepted etiquette is now the one Ethan kindly pointed out. There are many discussions on this in the Meta section of the forum.
– Giuseppe Negro
Oct 7 '17 at 17:53












2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
0
down vote



accepted










Choose any sequence $a_0=b > a_1 > a_ 2 > dots to a.$ Define $f$ on $(a,b]$ by letting $f$ be a tent of height $h_n$ over $[a_n,a_{n-1}], n=1,2,dots.$ Do this so that the slopes of the tents $to 0$ in absolute value (i.e., so that $h_n/(a_{n-1}-a_n) to 0$). Set $f(a) = 0.$ Then $fnotin C^1_{pw}.$



Now define $f_n = chi_{[a_n,a_0]}cdot f, n=1,2,dots $ Then $f_n in C^1_{pw}$ for each $n.$ Note that $f_n to f$ pointwise on $[a,b].$ If $m< n,$ then $f_n-f_m$ is just the set of tents that live on $[a_n,a_m],$ with $f_n-f_m= 0$ everywhere else. It follows that $(f_n)$ is Cauchy in the $C^1_{pw}$ norm.



Could $f_n$ converge to some $g$ in $C^1_{pw}?$ Suppose it does. Then $sup_{[a,b]}|f_n - g| to 0.$ Thus $g$ is the pointwise limit of the $f_n.$ But we saw earlier that $f$ is the pointwise limit of the $f_n.$ We conclude $f=g$ everywhere, which is a contradiction. Therefore $C^1_{pw}$ is not complete.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • I think OP wants continuous piecewise functions! It should be better if you modify $f_n$ slightly.
    – Red shoes
    Oct 7 '17 at 17:38












  • @Redshoes Ah, there was a typo. Now they are continuous.
    – zhw.
    Oct 7 '17 at 17:41












  • does $f(0)=0 $ mean $f(a) =0$ ? and also $f_n = chi_{[a_n,a_0]}$ has jump at $a_n$.
    – Red shoes
    Oct 7 '17 at 17:54










  • @Redshoes Yes $f(a)=0$ thanks, another typo. Note that I fixed $f_n.$
    – zhw.
    Oct 7 '17 at 17:56










  • @ zhw : Your counterexample seems to work well ! Thank you !
    – R. Queneau
    Oct 7 '17 at 18:19


















up vote
0
down vote













A counterexample may be:



$forall x in [0;frac{1}{2}], f_{1}(x)=0$
and $forall x in [frac{1}{2};1], f_{1}(x)=frac{1}{2^{0}}$



$forall x in [0;frac{2^{n}-1}{2^{n}}], f_{n}(x)=f_{n-1}(x)$ and $forall x in [frac{2^{n}-1}{2^{n}};1], f_{n}(x)=sum_{i=0}^{n-1}frac{1}{2^{i}}$






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Alrighty... I should have known!
    – Julien
    Oct 7 '17 at 18:44











Your Answer





StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
});
});
}, "mathjax-editing");

StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "69"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});

function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
convertImagesToLinks: true,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: 10,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});


}
});














 

draft saved


draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f2459493%2fis-the-set-of-piecewise-c1a-b-functions-complete-with-c1-norm%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown

























2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes








up vote
0
down vote



accepted










Choose any sequence $a_0=b > a_1 > a_ 2 > dots to a.$ Define $f$ on $(a,b]$ by letting $f$ be a tent of height $h_n$ over $[a_n,a_{n-1}], n=1,2,dots.$ Do this so that the slopes of the tents $to 0$ in absolute value (i.e., so that $h_n/(a_{n-1}-a_n) to 0$). Set $f(a) = 0.$ Then $fnotin C^1_{pw}.$



Now define $f_n = chi_{[a_n,a_0]}cdot f, n=1,2,dots $ Then $f_n in C^1_{pw}$ for each $n.$ Note that $f_n to f$ pointwise on $[a,b].$ If $m< n,$ then $f_n-f_m$ is just the set of tents that live on $[a_n,a_m],$ with $f_n-f_m= 0$ everywhere else. It follows that $(f_n)$ is Cauchy in the $C^1_{pw}$ norm.



Could $f_n$ converge to some $g$ in $C^1_{pw}?$ Suppose it does. Then $sup_{[a,b]}|f_n - g| to 0.$ Thus $g$ is the pointwise limit of the $f_n.$ But we saw earlier that $f$ is the pointwise limit of the $f_n.$ We conclude $f=g$ everywhere, which is a contradiction. Therefore $C^1_{pw}$ is not complete.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • I think OP wants continuous piecewise functions! It should be better if you modify $f_n$ slightly.
    – Red shoes
    Oct 7 '17 at 17:38












  • @Redshoes Ah, there was a typo. Now they are continuous.
    – zhw.
    Oct 7 '17 at 17:41












  • does $f(0)=0 $ mean $f(a) =0$ ? and also $f_n = chi_{[a_n,a_0]}$ has jump at $a_n$.
    – Red shoes
    Oct 7 '17 at 17:54










  • @Redshoes Yes $f(a)=0$ thanks, another typo. Note that I fixed $f_n.$
    – zhw.
    Oct 7 '17 at 17:56










  • @ zhw : Your counterexample seems to work well ! Thank you !
    – R. Queneau
    Oct 7 '17 at 18:19















up vote
0
down vote



accepted










Choose any sequence $a_0=b > a_1 > a_ 2 > dots to a.$ Define $f$ on $(a,b]$ by letting $f$ be a tent of height $h_n$ over $[a_n,a_{n-1}], n=1,2,dots.$ Do this so that the slopes of the tents $to 0$ in absolute value (i.e., so that $h_n/(a_{n-1}-a_n) to 0$). Set $f(a) = 0.$ Then $fnotin C^1_{pw}.$



Now define $f_n = chi_{[a_n,a_0]}cdot f, n=1,2,dots $ Then $f_n in C^1_{pw}$ for each $n.$ Note that $f_n to f$ pointwise on $[a,b].$ If $m< n,$ then $f_n-f_m$ is just the set of tents that live on $[a_n,a_m],$ with $f_n-f_m= 0$ everywhere else. It follows that $(f_n)$ is Cauchy in the $C^1_{pw}$ norm.



Could $f_n$ converge to some $g$ in $C^1_{pw}?$ Suppose it does. Then $sup_{[a,b]}|f_n - g| to 0.$ Thus $g$ is the pointwise limit of the $f_n.$ But we saw earlier that $f$ is the pointwise limit of the $f_n.$ We conclude $f=g$ everywhere, which is a contradiction. Therefore $C^1_{pw}$ is not complete.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • I think OP wants continuous piecewise functions! It should be better if you modify $f_n$ slightly.
    – Red shoes
    Oct 7 '17 at 17:38












  • @Redshoes Ah, there was a typo. Now they are continuous.
    – zhw.
    Oct 7 '17 at 17:41












  • does $f(0)=0 $ mean $f(a) =0$ ? and also $f_n = chi_{[a_n,a_0]}$ has jump at $a_n$.
    – Red shoes
    Oct 7 '17 at 17:54










  • @Redshoes Yes $f(a)=0$ thanks, another typo. Note that I fixed $f_n.$
    – zhw.
    Oct 7 '17 at 17:56










  • @ zhw : Your counterexample seems to work well ! Thank you !
    – R. Queneau
    Oct 7 '17 at 18:19













up vote
0
down vote



accepted







up vote
0
down vote



accepted






Choose any sequence $a_0=b > a_1 > a_ 2 > dots to a.$ Define $f$ on $(a,b]$ by letting $f$ be a tent of height $h_n$ over $[a_n,a_{n-1}], n=1,2,dots.$ Do this so that the slopes of the tents $to 0$ in absolute value (i.e., so that $h_n/(a_{n-1}-a_n) to 0$). Set $f(a) = 0.$ Then $fnotin C^1_{pw}.$



Now define $f_n = chi_{[a_n,a_0]}cdot f, n=1,2,dots $ Then $f_n in C^1_{pw}$ for each $n.$ Note that $f_n to f$ pointwise on $[a,b].$ If $m< n,$ then $f_n-f_m$ is just the set of tents that live on $[a_n,a_m],$ with $f_n-f_m= 0$ everywhere else. It follows that $(f_n)$ is Cauchy in the $C^1_{pw}$ norm.



Could $f_n$ converge to some $g$ in $C^1_{pw}?$ Suppose it does. Then $sup_{[a,b]}|f_n - g| to 0.$ Thus $g$ is the pointwise limit of the $f_n.$ But we saw earlier that $f$ is the pointwise limit of the $f_n.$ We conclude $f=g$ everywhere, which is a contradiction. Therefore $C^1_{pw}$ is not complete.






share|cite|improve this answer














Choose any sequence $a_0=b > a_1 > a_ 2 > dots to a.$ Define $f$ on $(a,b]$ by letting $f$ be a tent of height $h_n$ over $[a_n,a_{n-1}], n=1,2,dots.$ Do this so that the slopes of the tents $to 0$ in absolute value (i.e., so that $h_n/(a_{n-1}-a_n) to 0$). Set $f(a) = 0.$ Then $fnotin C^1_{pw}.$



Now define $f_n = chi_{[a_n,a_0]}cdot f, n=1,2,dots $ Then $f_n in C^1_{pw}$ for each $n.$ Note that $f_n to f$ pointwise on $[a,b].$ If $m< n,$ then $f_n-f_m$ is just the set of tents that live on $[a_n,a_m],$ with $f_n-f_m= 0$ everywhere else. It follows that $(f_n)$ is Cauchy in the $C^1_{pw}$ norm.



Could $f_n$ converge to some $g$ in $C^1_{pw}?$ Suppose it does. Then $sup_{[a,b]}|f_n - g| to 0.$ Thus $g$ is the pointwise limit of the $f_n.$ But we saw earlier that $f$ is the pointwise limit of the $f_n.$ We conclude $f=g$ everywhere, which is a contradiction. Therefore $C^1_{pw}$ is not complete.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Oct 7 '17 at 18:30

























answered Oct 7 '17 at 17:16









zhw.

70.4k43075




70.4k43075












  • I think OP wants continuous piecewise functions! It should be better if you modify $f_n$ slightly.
    – Red shoes
    Oct 7 '17 at 17:38












  • @Redshoes Ah, there was a typo. Now they are continuous.
    – zhw.
    Oct 7 '17 at 17:41












  • does $f(0)=0 $ mean $f(a) =0$ ? and also $f_n = chi_{[a_n,a_0]}$ has jump at $a_n$.
    – Red shoes
    Oct 7 '17 at 17:54










  • @Redshoes Yes $f(a)=0$ thanks, another typo. Note that I fixed $f_n.$
    – zhw.
    Oct 7 '17 at 17:56










  • @ zhw : Your counterexample seems to work well ! Thank you !
    – R. Queneau
    Oct 7 '17 at 18:19


















  • I think OP wants continuous piecewise functions! It should be better if you modify $f_n$ slightly.
    – Red shoes
    Oct 7 '17 at 17:38












  • @Redshoes Ah, there was a typo. Now they are continuous.
    – zhw.
    Oct 7 '17 at 17:41












  • does $f(0)=0 $ mean $f(a) =0$ ? and also $f_n = chi_{[a_n,a_0]}$ has jump at $a_n$.
    – Red shoes
    Oct 7 '17 at 17:54










  • @Redshoes Yes $f(a)=0$ thanks, another typo. Note that I fixed $f_n.$
    – zhw.
    Oct 7 '17 at 17:56










  • @ zhw : Your counterexample seems to work well ! Thank you !
    – R. Queneau
    Oct 7 '17 at 18:19
















I think OP wants continuous piecewise functions! It should be better if you modify $f_n$ slightly.
– Red shoes
Oct 7 '17 at 17:38






I think OP wants continuous piecewise functions! It should be better if you modify $f_n$ slightly.
– Red shoes
Oct 7 '17 at 17:38














@Redshoes Ah, there was a typo. Now they are continuous.
– zhw.
Oct 7 '17 at 17:41






@Redshoes Ah, there was a typo. Now they are continuous.
– zhw.
Oct 7 '17 at 17:41














does $f(0)=0 $ mean $f(a) =0$ ? and also $f_n = chi_{[a_n,a_0]}$ has jump at $a_n$.
– Red shoes
Oct 7 '17 at 17:54




does $f(0)=0 $ mean $f(a) =0$ ? and also $f_n = chi_{[a_n,a_0]}$ has jump at $a_n$.
– Red shoes
Oct 7 '17 at 17:54












@Redshoes Yes $f(a)=0$ thanks, another typo. Note that I fixed $f_n.$
– zhw.
Oct 7 '17 at 17:56




@Redshoes Yes $f(a)=0$ thanks, another typo. Note that I fixed $f_n.$
– zhw.
Oct 7 '17 at 17:56












@ zhw : Your counterexample seems to work well ! Thank you !
– R. Queneau
Oct 7 '17 at 18:19




@ zhw : Your counterexample seems to work well ! Thank you !
– R. Queneau
Oct 7 '17 at 18:19










up vote
0
down vote













A counterexample may be:



$forall x in [0;frac{1}{2}], f_{1}(x)=0$
and $forall x in [frac{1}{2};1], f_{1}(x)=frac{1}{2^{0}}$



$forall x in [0;frac{2^{n}-1}{2^{n}}], f_{n}(x)=f_{n-1}(x)$ and $forall x in [frac{2^{n}-1}{2^{n}};1], f_{n}(x)=sum_{i=0}^{n-1}frac{1}{2^{i}}$






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Alrighty... I should have known!
    – Julien
    Oct 7 '17 at 18:44















up vote
0
down vote













A counterexample may be:



$forall x in [0;frac{1}{2}], f_{1}(x)=0$
and $forall x in [frac{1}{2};1], f_{1}(x)=frac{1}{2^{0}}$



$forall x in [0;frac{2^{n}-1}{2^{n}}], f_{n}(x)=f_{n-1}(x)$ and $forall x in [frac{2^{n}-1}{2^{n}};1], f_{n}(x)=sum_{i=0}^{n-1}frac{1}{2^{i}}$






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Alrighty... I should have known!
    – Julien
    Oct 7 '17 at 18:44













up vote
0
down vote










up vote
0
down vote









A counterexample may be:



$forall x in [0;frac{1}{2}], f_{1}(x)=0$
and $forall x in [frac{1}{2};1], f_{1}(x)=frac{1}{2^{0}}$



$forall x in [0;frac{2^{n}-1}{2^{n}}], f_{n}(x)=f_{n-1}(x)$ and $forall x in [frac{2^{n}-1}{2^{n}};1], f_{n}(x)=sum_{i=0}^{n-1}frac{1}{2^{i}}$






share|cite|improve this answer












A counterexample may be:



$forall x in [0;frac{1}{2}], f_{1}(x)=0$
and $forall x in [frac{1}{2};1], f_{1}(x)=frac{1}{2^{0}}$



$forall x in [0;frac{2^{n}-1}{2^{n}}], f_{n}(x)=f_{n-1}(x)$ and $forall x in [frac{2^{n}-1}{2^{n}};1], f_{n}(x)=sum_{i=0}^{n-1}frac{1}{2^{i}}$







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered Oct 7 '17 at 14:38









Julien

228113




228113












  • Alrighty... I should have known!
    – Julien
    Oct 7 '17 at 18:44


















  • Alrighty... I should have known!
    – Julien
    Oct 7 '17 at 18:44
















Alrighty... I should have known!
– Julien
Oct 7 '17 at 18:44




Alrighty... I should have known!
– Julien
Oct 7 '17 at 18:44


















 

draft saved


draft discarded



















































 


draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f2459493%2fis-the-set-of-piecewise-c1a-b-functions-complete-with-c1-norm%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown





















































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown

































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown







Popular posts from this blog

How to send String Array data to Server using php in android

Title Spacing in Bjornstrup Chapter, Removing Chapter Number From Contents

Is anime1.com a legal site for watching anime?