Why didn't Eru stop the Dark Lords from causing trouble in Middle-Earth?
Eru was infinitely more powerful than the Dark Lords, why didn't he stop them from trying to enslave the Free Peoples?
tolkiens-legendarium
asked Jan 21 at 0:52
nuggetsnacknuggetsnack
22629
add a comment |
Eru was infinitely more powerful than the Dark Lords, why didn't he stop them from trying to enslave the Free Peoples?
tolkiens-legendarium
asked Jan 21 at 0:52
nuggetsnacknuggetsnack
22629
25
Why would god create evil?
– Lexible
Jan 21 at 2:10
1
I read the Silmarillion a long, long time ago, but I don't remember Eru intervening a lot through it. Was he particularly active and present after the creation ?
– Don Pablo
Jan 21 at 13:04
5
He did, indirectly.
– Mithoron
Jan 21 at 16:48
Same reason the fellowship of the ring didn't just use the eagles to drop the ring into Orodruin, I guess. Or why Tulkas didn't just beat up Melkor and make him put the lamps back up, etc.
– einpoklum
Jan 23 at 9:27
related: scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/64471/…
– vaxquis
Jan 23 at 11:52
add a comment |
Eru was infinitely more powerful than the Dark Lords, why didn't he stop them from trying to enslave the Free Peoples?
tolkiens-legendarium
asked Jan 21 at 0:52
nuggetsnacknuggetsnack
22629
Eru was infinitely more powerful than the Dark Lords, why didn't he stop them from trying to enslave the Free Peoples?
tolkiens-legendarium
tolkiens-legendarium
asked Jan 21 at 0:52
nuggetsnacknuggetsnack
22629
asked Jan 21 at 0:52
nuggetsnacknuggetsnack
22629
asked Jan 21 at 0:52
nuggetsnacknuggetsnack
22629
asked Jan 21 at 0:52
nuggetsnacknuggetsnack
22629
asked Jan 21 at 0:52
nuggetsnacknuggetsnack
22629
22629
25
Why would god create evil?
– Lexible
Jan 21 at 2:10
1
I read the Silmarillion a long, long time ago, but I don't remember Eru intervening a lot through it. Was he particularly active and present after the creation ?
– Don Pablo
Jan 21 at 13:04
5
He did, indirectly.
– Mithoron
Jan 21 at 16:48
Same reason the fellowship of the ring didn't just use the eagles to drop the ring into Orodruin, I guess. Or why Tulkas didn't just beat up Melkor and make him put the lamps back up, etc.
– einpoklum
Jan 23 at 9:27
related: scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/64471/…
– vaxquis
Jan 23 at 11:52
add a comment |
25
Why would god create evil?
– Lexible
Jan 21 at 2:10
1
I read the Silmarillion a long, long time ago, but I don't remember Eru intervening a lot through it. Was he particularly active and present after the creation ?
– Don Pablo
Jan 21 at 13:04
5
He did, indirectly.
– Mithoron
Jan 21 at 16:48
Same reason the fellowship of the ring didn't just use the eagles to drop the ring into Orodruin, I guess. Or why Tulkas didn't just beat up Melkor and make him put the lamps back up, etc.
– einpoklum
Jan 23 at 9:27
related: scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/64471/…
– vaxquis
Jan 23 at 11:52
25
25
Why would god create evil?
– Lexible
Jan 21 at 2:10
Why would god create evil?
– Lexible
Jan 21 at 2:10
1
1
I read the Silmarillion a long, long time ago, but I don't remember Eru intervening a lot through it. Was he particularly active and present after the creation ?
– Don Pablo
Jan 21 at 13:04
I read the Silmarillion a long, long time ago, but I don't remember Eru intervening a lot through it. Was he particularly active and present after the creation ?
– Don Pablo
Jan 21 at 13:04
5
5
He did, indirectly.
– Mithoron
Jan 21 at 16:48
He did, indirectly.
– Mithoron
Jan 21 at 16:48
Same reason the fellowship of the ring didn't just use the eagles to drop the ring into Orodruin, I guess. Or why Tulkas didn't just beat up Melkor and make him put the lamps back up, etc.
– einpoklum
Jan 23 at 9:27
Same reason the fellowship of the ring didn't just use the eagles to drop the ring into Orodruin, I guess. Or why Tulkas didn't just beat up Melkor and make him put the lamps back up, etc.
– einpoklum
Jan 23 at 9:27
related: scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/64471/…
– vaxquis
Jan 23 at 11:52
related: scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/64471/…
– vaxquis
Jan 23 at 11:52
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
It was part of Eru's plan? Eru implied as much to Morgoth at least, when he commented on Morgoth attempting to alter the music that created the world.
And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
answered Jan 21 at 1:58
suchiuomizusuchiuomizu
3,94621122
33
+1. Note that Tolkien was a committed Catholic, and though he famously rejected any allegorical reading of his work, an understanding of the Catholic thought he was steeped in helps uncovering much deeper layers of meaning. The passage you cite is straightforward Catholic teaching on the existence of evil. Compare the concept of felix culpa.
– Stephan Kolassa
Jan 21 at 5:04
22
"Melkor, you're derivative and even if you think you're being creative, you're just playing my tune" Dayum. That's enough to make anyone upset!
– Ruadhan2300
Jan 21 at 11:47
26
In the Song of the Ainur (Silmarillion), which sets up a sort "Fate" for Middle-Earth, Melkor keeps trying to introduce new discordant themes into Eru's song. Instead of kicking Melkor out of the choir, Eru adapts his song to turn those themes into something more beautiful than the song had been originally. Tolkien is saying that this struggle in Middle Earth that ensues from Melkor's rebellion is something more beautiful, greater, than a world without such conflict. The stories we care about all have such conflict. A story without conflict would be boring.
– Paul Sinclair
Jan 21 at 15:11
3
@M.A.Golding - a story must have an obstacle to overcome, something to cause growth in its protagonist. What makes the story interesting is not so much the obstacle, but that growth. How do the events change the protagonist? Tolkein's Eru overcomes Melkor's rebeillion by making something more beautiful out of it. The residents of M.E. are given passion by their struggle against it, and that passion is the beauty of Eru revised song. This is the essense of Tolkein's message (as I interpret it). Whether you or I approve or disapprove of it does not change it.
– Paul Sinclair
Jan 21 at 17:56
4
@Schwern - The story sounds to me like it wasn't part of his original plan, but every time Melkor tries to introduce a new theme of his own, Eru responds by incorporating it into a greater melody. The quote is more Eru saying to Melkor "I created you, so everything you do ultimately comes from me." That is my take on it anyway. Other opinions are certainly possible.
– Paul Sinclair
Jan 21 at 20:30
|
show 7 more comments
There would be no story.
Following the "World as Myth" interpretation of reality (Robert A. Heinlein), the creatures of Middle Earth by necessity live in an interesting world, because no stories are written about boring worlds. In the infinite multitude of possible worlds, the many in which Eru snapped his fingers and half the universe... err... the evil half of creation disappeared are not manifested in stories.
In-world, Eru is not a god that actively participates in the events inside his creation. In fact, not even all of the Ainur entered Eä. The Valar (the gods of Tolkiens world) are a subset of the Ainur. And Eru himself intervenes at a rate of about once per age. In the first age he created the races of elves and men. In the second age he sunk Numenor. And in the third age, he resurrected Gandalf, at least according to some interpretations.
Could he have eliminated Melkor or Sauron? Most likely, yes. He just isn't that kind of guy.
answered Jan 21 at 16:27
TomTom
31016
2
Every good artist knows that no creation can ever be "perfect" in every way. At some point you have to step back and leave "good enough" alone, to be experienced by the audience. ;-)
– DevSolar
Jan 22 at 10:58
The Children of Eru (Elves and Men) were part of the original theme, so their awakening isn't really an example of "intervention" in the same sense as the changing of the physical nature of the world at the end of the Second Age or the return of Gandalf at the end of the Third.
– chepner
Jan 23 at 17:34
add a comment |
Why doesn't (insert real world deity of choice) stop nasty things from happening? Possible answers - again, these are real-world ones I've heard - range the gamut from "deity doesn't care/enjoys human suffering" to "it's a learning experience".
Of course for Tolkien, if Eru had, LOTR would have been a pretty short book :-)
answered Jan 21 at 3:52
jamesqfjamesqf
1,697711
8
He was under the malign influence of BigFantasyWriters. They set up a honey pot and blackmailed him to create faulty worlds so they'd have something to write about.
– RedSonja
Jan 21 at 11:40
1
This answer seems to contradict the actual quote from the books shown in the other answer. By that quote, seems this is neither "doesn't care", nor "learning experience" case.
– hyde
Jan 21 at 19:35
@hyde: Depends on what you think is an appropriate answer. As comments to that answer point out, the quote from the books is just a re-wording of real-world (insert religion of choice) "explanations". which I find entirely unsatisfying.
– jamesqf
Jan 22 at 5:09
3
What I mean is, this answer is just speculation without references. Unlike with (insert real world deity of choice), with Tolkiens world we have actual words written by Tolkien, as well as some knowledge of the person, Tolkien, and his beliefs.
– hyde
Jan 22 at 6:49
@hyde: But invoking Tolkien's beliefs answers a different question, "Why did Tolkien choose to write his invented mythology with a non-interventionist god?" You start by assuming that it's something he invented; I assume that he reports on something that exists.
– jamesqf
Jan 22 at 17:49
|
show 3 more comments
The Ainur, each inherited an aspect of Eru which is to say that Morgoth was just as much a part of Eru as any of the other Ainur.
The question is not why would he not stop Morgoth from causing trouble so much as, did he see Morgoth as trouble to begin with. Nature lasts longest when there is a balance between creation & destruction; so, Eru would have likely seen Morgoth's actions with the same approval that a homeowner would have for a gardener pruning his bushes... it's just really hard to see it that way when you are the bush.
answered Jan 22 at 22:30
NosajimikiNosajimiki
1113
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4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
It was part of Eru's plan? Eru implied as much to Morgoth at least, when he commented on Morgoth attempting to alter the music that created the world.
And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
answered Jan 21 at 1:58
suchiuomizusuchiuomizu
3,94621122
33
+1. Note that Tolkien was a committed Catholic, and though he famously rejected any allegorical reading of his work, an understanding of the Catholic thought he was steeped in helps uncovering much deeper layers of meaning. The passage you cite is straightforward Catholic teaching on the existence of evil. Compare the concept of felix culpa.
– Stephan Kolassa
Jan 21 at 5:04
22
"Melkor, you're derivative and even if you think you're being creative, you're just playing my tune" Dayum. That's enough to make anyone upset!
– Ruadhan2300
Jan 21 at 11:47
26
In the Song of the Ainur (Silmarillion), which sets up a sort "Fate" for Middle-Earth, Melkor keeps trying to introduce new discordant themes into Eru's song. Instead of kicking Melkor out of the choir, Eru adapts his song to turn those themes into something more beautiful than the song had been originally. Tolkien is saying that this struggle in Middle Earth that ensues from Melkor's rebellion is something more beautiful, greater, than a world without such conflict. The stories we care about all have such conflict. A story without conflict would be boring.
– Paul Sinclair
Jan 21 at 15:11
3
@M.A.Golding - a story must have an obstacle to overcome, something to cause growth in its protagonist. What makes the story interesting is not so much the obstacle, but that growth. How do the events change the protagonist? Tolkein's Eru overcomes Melkor's rebeillion by making something more beautiful out of it. The residents of M.E. are given passion by their struggle against it, and that passion is the beauty of Eru revised song. This is the essense of Tolkein's message (as I interpret it). Whether you or I approve or disapprove of it does not change it.
– Paul Sinclair
Jan 21 at 17:56
4
@Schwern - The story sounds to me like it wasn't part of his original plan, but every time Melkor tries to introduce a new theme of his own, Eru responds by incorporating it into a greater melody. The quote is more Eru saying to Melkor "I created you, so everything you do ultimately comes from me." That is my take on it anyway. Other opinions are certainly possible.
– Paul Sinclair
Jan 21 at 20:30
|
show 7 more comments
It was part of Eru's plan? Eru implied as much to Morgoth at least, when he commented on Morgoth attempting to alter the music that created the world.
And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
answered Jan 21 at 1:58
suchiuomizusuchiuomizu
3,94621122
33
+1. Note that Tolkien was a committed Catholic, and though he famously rejected any allegorical reading of his work, an understanding of the Catholic thought he was steeped in helps uncovering much deeper layers of meaning. The passage you cite is straightforward Catholic teaching on the existence of evil. Compare the concept of felix culpa.
– Stephan Kolassa
Jan 21 at 5:04
22
"Melkor, you're derivative and even if you think you're being creative, you're just playing my tune" Dayum. That's enough to make anyone upset!
– Ruadhan2300
Jan 21 at 11:47
26
In the Song of the Ainur (Silmarillion), which sets up a sort "Fate" for Middle-Earth, Melkor keeps trying to introduce new discordant themes into Eru's song. Instead of kicking Melkor out of the choir, Eru adapts his song to turn those themes into something more beautiful than the song had been originally. Tolkien is saying that this struggle in Middle Earth that ensues from Melkor's rebellion is something more beautiful, greater, than a world without such conflict. The stories we care about all have such conflict. A story without conflict would be boring.
– Paul Sinclair
Jan 21 at 15:11
3
@M.A.Golding - a story must have an obstacle to overcome, something to cause growth in its protagonist. What makes the story interesting is not so much the obstacle, but that growth. How do the events change the protagonist? Tolkein's Eru overcomes Melkor's rebeillion by making something more beautiful out of it. The residents of M.E. are given passion by their struggle against it, and that passion is the beauty of Eru revised song. This is the essense of Tolkein's message (as I interpret it). Whether you or I approve or disapprove of it does not change it.
– Paul Sinclair
Jan 21 at 17:56
4
@Schwern - The story sounds to me like it wasn't part of his original plan, but every time Melkor tries to introduce a new theme of his own, Eru responds by incorporating it into a greater melody. The quote is more Eru saying to Melkor "I created you, so everything you do ultimately comes from me." That is my take on it anyway. Other opinions are certainly possible.
– Paul Sinclair
Jan 21 at 20:30
|
show 7 more comments
It was part of Eru's plan? Eru implied as much to Morgoth at least, when he commented on Morgoth attempting to alter the music that created the world.
And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
answered Jan 21 at 1:58
suchiuomizusuchiuomizu
3,94621122
It was part of Eru's plan? Eru implied as much to Morgoth at least, when he commented on Morgoth attempting to alter the music that created the world.
And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
answered Jan 21 at 1:58
suchiuomizusuchiuomizu
3,94621122
answered Jan 21 at 1:58
suchiuomizusuchiuomizu
3,94621122
answered Jan 21 at 1:58
suchiuomizusuchiuomizu
3,94621122
answered Jan 21 at 1:58
suchiuomizusuchiuomizu
3,94621122
3,94621122
33
+1. Note that Tolkien was a committed Catholic, and though he famously rejected any allegorical reading of his work, an understanding of the Catholic thought he was steeped in helps uncovering much deeper layers of meaning. The passage you cite is straightforward Catholic teaching on the existence of evil. Compare the concept of felix culpa.
– Stephan Kolassa
Jan 21 at 5:04
22
"Melkor, you're derivative and even if you think you're being creative, you're just playing my tune" Dayum. That's enough to make anyone upset!
– Ruadhan2300
Jan 21 at 11:47
26
In the Song of the Ainur (Silmarillion), which sets up a sort "Fate" for Middle-Earth, Melkor keeps trying to introduce new discordant themes into Eru's song. Instead of kicking Melkor out of the choir, Eru adapts his song to turn those themes into something more beautiful than the song had been originally. Tolkien is saying that this struggle in Middle Earth that ensues from Melkor's rebellion is something more beautiful, greater, than a world without such conflict. The stories we care about all have such conflict. A story without conflict would be boring.
– Paul Sinclair
Jan 21 at 15:11
3
@M.A.Golding - a story must have an obstacle to overcome, something to cause growth in its protagonist. What makes the story interesting is not so much the obstacle, but that growth. How do the events change the protagonist? Tolkein's Eru overcomes Melkor's rebeillion by making something more beautiful out of it. The residents of M.E. are given passion by their struggle against it, and that passion is the beauty of Eru revised song. This is the essense of Tolkein's message (as I interpret it). Whether you or I approve or disapprove of it does not change it.
– Paul Sinclair
Jan 21 at 17:56
4
@Schwern - The story sounds to me like it wasn't part of his original plan, but every time Melkor tries to introduce a new theme of his own, Eru responds by incorporating it into a greater melody. The quote is more Eru saying to Melkor "I created you, so everything you do ultimately comes from me." That is my take on it anyway. Other opinions are certainly possible.
– Paul Sinclair
Jan 21 at 20:30
|
show 7 more comments
33
+1. Note that Tolkien was a committed Catholic, and though he famously rejected any allegorical reading of his work, an understanding of the Catholic thought he was steeped in helps uncovering much deeper layers of meaning. The passage you cite is straightforward Catholic teaching on the existence of evil. Compare the concept of felix culpa.
– Stephan Kolassa
Jan 21 at 5:04
22
"Melkor, you're derivative and even if you think you're being creative, you're just playing my tune" Dayum. That's enough to make anyone upset!
– Ruadhan2300
Jan 21 at 11:47
26
In the Song of the Ainur (Silmarillion), which sets up a sort "Fate" for Middle-Earth, Melkor keeps trying to introduce new discordant themes into Eru's song. Instead of kicking Melkor out of the choir, Eru adapts his song to turn those themes into something more beautiful than the song had been originally. Tolkien is saying that this struggle in Middle Earth that ensues from Melkor's rebellion is something more beautiful, greater, than a world without such conflict. The stories we care about all have such conflict. A story without conflict would be boring.
– Paul Sinclair
Jan 21 at 15:11
3
@M.A.Golding - a story must have an obstacle to overcome, something to cause growth in its protagonist. What makes the story interesting is not so much the obstacle, but that growth. How do the events change the protagonist? Tolkein's Eru overcomes Melkor's rebeillion by making something more beautiful out of it. The residents of M.E. are given passion by their struggle against it, and that passion is the beauty of Eru revised song. This is the essense of Tolkein's message (as I interpret it). Whether you or I approve or disapprove of it does not change it.
– Paul Sinclair
Jan 21 at 17:56
4
@Schwern - The story sounds to me like it wasn't part of his original plan, but every time Melkor tries to introduce a new theme of his own, Eru responds by incorporating it into a greater melody. The quote is more Eru saying to Melkor "I created you, so everything you do ultimately comes from me." That is my take on it anyway. Other opinions are certainly possible.
– Paul Sinclair
Jan 21 at 20:30
33
33
+1. Note that Tolkien was a committed Catholic, and though he famously rejected any allegorical reading of his work, an understanding of the Catholic thought he was steeped in helps uncovering much deeper layers of meaning. The passage you cite is straightforward Catholic teaching on the existence of evil. Compare the concept of felix culpa.
– Stephan Kolassa
Jan 21 at 5:04
+1. Note that Tolkien was a committed Catholic, and though he famously rejected any allegorical reading of his work, an understanding of the Catholic thought he was steeped in helps uncovering much deeper layers of meaning. The passage you cite is straightforward Catholic teaching on the existence of evil. Compare the concept of felix culpa.
– Stephan Kolassa
Jan 21 at 5:04
22
22
"Melkor, you're derivative and even if you think you're being creative, you're just playing my tune" Dayum. That's enough to make anyone upset!
– Ruadhan2300
Jan 21 at 11:47
"Melkor, you're derivative and even if you think you're being creative, you're just playing my tune" Dayum. That's enough to make anyone upset!
– Ruadhan2300
Jan 21 at 11:47
26
26
In the Song of the Ainur (Silmarillion), which sets up a sort "Fate" for Middle-Earth, Melkor keeps trying to introduce new discordant themes into Eru's song. Instead of kicking Melkor out of the choir, Eru adapts his song to turn those themes into something more beautiful than the song had been originally. Tolkien is saying that this struggle in Middle Earth that ensues from Melkor's rebellion is something more beautiful, greater, than a world without such conflict. The stories we care about all have such conflict. A story without conflict would be boring.
– Paul Sinclair
Jan 21 at 15:11
In the Song of the Ainur (Silmarillion), which sets up a sort "Fate" for Middle-Earth, Melkor keeps trying to introduce new discordant themes into Eru's song. Instead of kicking Melkor out of the choir, Eru adapts his song to turn those themes into something more beautiful than the song had been originally. Tolkien is saying that this struggle in Middle Earth that ensues from Melkor's rebellion is something more beautiful, greater, than a world without such conflict. The stories we care about all have such conflict. A story without conflict would be boring.
– Paul Sinclair
Jan 21 at 15:11
3
3
@M.A.Golding - a story must have an obstacle to overcome, something to cause growth in its protagonist. What makes the story interesting is not so much the obstacle, but that growth. How do the events change the protagonist? Tolkein's Eru overcomes Melkor's rebeillion by making something more beautiful out of it. The residents of M.E. are given passion by their struggle against it, and that passion is the beauty of Eru revised song. This is the essense of Tolkein's message (as I interpret it). Whether you or I approve or disapprove of it does not change it.
– Paul Sinclair
Jan 21 at 17:56
@M.A.Golding - a story must have an obstacle to overcome, something to cause growth in its protagonist. What makes the story interesting is not so much the obstacle, but that growth. How do the events change the protagonist? Tolkein's Eru overcomes Melkor's rebeillion by making something more beautiful out of it. The residents of M.E. are given passion by their struggle against it, and that passion is the beauty of Eru revised song. This is the essense of Tolkein's message (as I interpret it). Whether you or I approve or disapprove of it does not change it.
– Paul Sinclair
Jan 21 at 17:56
4
4
@Schwern - The story sounds to me like it wasn't part of his original plan, but every time Melkor tries to introduce a new theme of his own, Eru responds by incorporating it into a greater melody. The quote is more Eru saying to Melkor "I created you, so everything you do ultimately comes from me." That is my take on it anyway. Other opinions are certainly possible.
– Paul Sinclair
Jan 21 at 20:30
@Schwern - The story sounds to me like it wasn't part of his original plan, but every time Melkor tries to introduce a new theme of his own, Eru responds by incorporating it into a greater melody. The quote is more Eru saying to Melkor "I created you, so everything you do ultimately comes from me." That is my take on it anyway. Other opinions are certainly possible.
– Paul Sinclair
Jan 21 at 20:30
|
show 7 more comments
There would be no story.
Following the "World as Myth" interpretation of reality (Robert A. Heinlein), the creatures of Middle Earth by necessity live in an interesting world, because no stories are written about boring worlds. In the infinite multitude of possible worlds, the many in which Eru snapped his fingers and half the universe... err... the evil half of creation disappeared are not manifested in stories.
In-world, Eru is not a god that actively participates in the events inside his creation. In fact, not even all of the Ainur entered Eä. The Valar (the gods of Tolkiens world) are a subset of the Ainur. And Eru himself intervenes at a rate of about once per age. In the first age he created the races of elves and men. In the second age he sunk Numenor. And in the third age, he resurrected Gandalf, at least according to some interpretations.
Could he have eliminated Melkor or Sauron? Most likely, yes. He just isn't that kind of guy.
answered Jan 21 at 16:27
TomTom
31016
2
Every good artist knows that no creation can ever be "perfect" in every way. At some point you have to step back and leave "good enough" alone, to be experienced by the audience. ;-)
– DevSolar
Jan 22 at 10:58
The Children of Eru (Elves and Men) were part of the original theme, so their awakening isn't really an example of "intervention" in the same sense as the changing of the physical nature of the world at the end of the Second Age or the return of Gandalf at the end of the Third.
– chepner
Jan 23 at 17:34
add a comment |
There would be no story.
Following the "World as Myth" interpretation of reality (Robert A. Heinlein), the creatures of Middle Earth by necessity live in an interesting world, because no stories are written about boring worlds. In the infinite multitude of possible worlds, the many in which Eru snapped his fingers and half the universe... err... the evil half of creation disappeared are not manifested in stories.
In-world, Eru is not a god that actively participates in the events inside his creation. In fact, not even all of the Ainur entered Eä. The Valar (the gods of Tolkiens world) are a subset of the Ainur. And Eru himself intervenes at a rate of about once per age. In the first age he created the races of elves and men. In the second age he sunk Numenor. And in the third age, he resurrected Gandalf, at least according to some interpretations.
Could he have eliminated Melkor or Sauron? Most likely, yes. He just isn't that kind of guy.
answered Jan 21 at 16:27
TomTom
31016
2
Every good artist knows that no creation can ever be "perfect" in every way. At some point you have to step back and leave "good enough" alone, to be experienced by the audience. ;-)
– DevSolar
Jan 22 at 10:58
The Children of Eru (Elves and Men) were part of the original theme, so their awakening isn't really an example of "intervention" in the same sense as the changing of the physical nature of the world at the end of the Second Age or the return of Gandalf at the end of the Third.
– chepner
Jan 23 at 17:34
add a comment |
There would be no story.
Following the "World as Myth" interpretation of reality (Robert A. Heinlein), the creatures of Middle Earth by necessity live in an interesting world, because no stories are written about boring worlds. In the infinite multitude of possible worlds, the many in which Eru snapped his fingers and half the universe... err... the evil half of creation disappeared are not manifested in stories.
In-world, Eru is not a god that actively participates in the events inside his creation. In fact, not even all of the Ainur entered Eä. The Valar (the gods of Tolkiens world) are a subset of the Ainur. And Eru himself intervenes at a rate of about once per age. In the first age he created the races of elves and men. In the second age he sunk Numenor. And in the third age, he resurrected Gandalf, at least according to some interpretations.
Could he have eliminated Melkor or Sauron? Most likely, yes. He just isn't that kind of guy.
answered Jan 21 at 16:27
TomTom
31016
There would be no story.
Following the "World as Myth" interpretation of reality (Robert A. Heinlein), the creatures of Middle Earth by necessity live in an interesting world, because no stories are written about boring worlds. In the infinite multitude of possible worlds, the many in which Eru snapped his fingers and half the universe... err... the evil half of creation disappeared are not manifested in stories.
In-world, Eru is not a god that actively participates in the events inside his creation. In fact, not even all of the Ainur entered Eä. The Valar (the gods of Tolkiens world) are a subset of the Ainur. And Eru himself intervenes at a rate of about once per age. In the first age he created the races of elves and men. In the second age he sunk Numenor. And in the third age, he resurrected Gandalf, at least according to some interpretations.
Could he have eliminated Melkor or Sauron? Most likely, yes. He just isn't that kind of guy.
answered Jan 21 at 16:27
TomTom
31016
answered Jan 21 at 16:27
TomTom
31016
answered Jan 21 at 16:27
TomTom
31016
answered Jan 21 at 16:27
TomTom
31016
31016
2
Every good artist knows that no creation can ever be "perfect" in every way. At some point you have to step back and leave "good enough" alone, to be experienced by the audience. ;-)
– DevSolar
Jan 22 at 10:58
The Children of Eru (Elves and Men) were part of the original theme, so their awakening isn't really an example of "intervention" in the same sense as the changing of the physical nature of the world at the end of the Second Age or the return of Gandalf at the end of the Third.
– chepner
Jan 23 at 17:34
add a comment |
2
Every good artist knows that no creation can ever be "perfect" in every way. At some point you have to step back and leave "good enough" alone, to be experienced by the audience. ;-)
– DevSolar
Jan 22 at 10:58
The Children of Eru (Elves and Men) were part of the original theme, so their awakening isn't really an example of "intervention" in the same sense as the changing of the physical nature of the world at the end of the Second Age or the return of Gandalf at the end of the Third.
– chepner
Jan 23 at 17:34
2
2
Every good artist knows that no creation can ever be "perfect" in every way. At some point you have to step back and leave "good enough" alone, to be experienced by the audience. ;-)
– DevSolar
Jan 22 at 10:58
Every good artist knows that no creation can ever be "perfect" in every way. At some point you have to step back and leave "good enough" alone, to be experienced by the audience. ;-)
– DevSolar
Jan 22 at 10:58
The Children of Eru (Elves and Men) were part of the original theme, so their awakening isn't really an example of "intervention" in the same sense as the changing of the physical nature of the world at the end of the Second Age or the return of Gandalf at the end of the Third.
– chepner
Jan 23 at 17:34
The Children of Eru (Elves and Men) were part of the original theme, so their awakening isn't really an example of "intervention" in the same sense as the changing of the physical nature of the world at the end of the Second Age or the return of Gandalf at the end of the Third.
– chepner
Jan 23 at 17:34
add a comment |
Why doesn't (insert real world deity of choice) stop nasty things from happening? Possible answers - again, these are real-world ones I've heard - range the gamut from "deity doesn't care/enjoys human suffering" to "it's a learning experience".
Of course for Tolkien, if Eru had, LOTR would have been a pretty short book :-)
answered Jan 21 at 3:52
jamesqfjamesqf
1,697711
8
He was under the malign influence of BigFantasyWriters. They set up a honey pot and blackmailed him to create faulty worlds so they'd have something to write about.
– RedSonja
Jan 21 at 11:40
1
This answer seems to contradict the actual quote from the books shown in the other answer. By that quote, seems this is neither "doesn't care", nor "learning experience" case.
– hyde
Jan 21 at 19:35
@hyde: Depends on what you think is an appropriate answer. As comments to that answer point out, the quote from the books is just a re-wording of real-world (insert religion of choice) "explanations". which I find entirely unsatisfying.
– jamesqf
Jan 22 at 5:09
3
What I mean is, this answer is just speculation without references. Unlike with (insert real world deity of choice), with Tolkiens world we have actual words written by Tolkien, as well as some knowledge of the person, Tolkien, and his beliefs.
– hyde
Jan 22 at 6:49
@hyde: But invoking Tolkien's beliefs answers a different question, "Why did Tolkien choose to write his invented mythology with a non-interventionist god?" You start by assuming that it's something he invented; I assume that he reports on something that exists.
– jamesqf
Jan 22 at 17:49
|
show 3 more comments
Why doesn't (insert real world deity of choice) stop nasty things from happening? Possible answers - again, these are real-world ones I've heard - range the gamut from "deity doesn't care/enjoys human suffering" to "it's a learning experience".
Of course for Tolkien, if Eru had, LOTR would have been a pretty short book :-)
answered Jan 21 at 3:52
jamesqfjamesqf
1,697711
8
He was under the malign influence of BigFantasyWriters. They set up a honey pot and blackmailed him to create faulty worlds so they'd have something to write about.
– RedSonja
Jan 21 at 11:40
1
This answer seems to contradict the actual quote from the books shown in the other answer. By that quote, seems this is neither "doesn't care", nor "learning experience" case.
– hyde
Jan 21 at 19:35
@hyde: Depends on what you think is an appropriate answer. As comments to that answer point out, the quote from the books is just a re-wording of real-world (insert religion of choice) "explanations". which I find entirely unsatisfying.
– jamesqf
Jan 22 at 5:09
3
What I mean is, this answer is just speculation without references. Unlike with (insert real world deity of choice), with Tolkiens world we have actual words written by Tolkien, as well as some knowledge of the person, Tolkien, and his beliefs.
– hyde
Jan 22 at 6:49
@hyde: But invoking Tolkien's beliefs answers a different question, "Why did Tolkien choose to write his invented mythology with a non-interventionist god?" You start by assuming that it's something he invented; I assume that he reports on something that exists.
– jamesqf
Jan 22 at 17:49
|
show 3 more comments
Why doesn't (insert real world deity of choice) stop nasty things from happening? Possible answers - again, these are real-world ones I've heard - range the gamut from "deity doesn't care/enjoys human suffering" to "it's a learning experience".
Of course for Tolkien, if Eru had, LOTR would have been a pretty short book :-)
answered Jan 21 at 3:52
jamesqfjamesqf
1,697711
Why doesn't (insert real world deity of choice) stop nasty things from happening? Possible answers - again, these are real-world ones I've heard - range the gamut from "deity doesn't care/enjoys human suffering" to "it's a learning experience".
Of course for Tolkien, if Eru had, LOTR would have been a pretty short book :-)
answered Jan 21 at 3:52
jamesqfjamesqf
1,697711
edited Jan 21 at 17:26
answered Jan 21 at 3:52
jamesqfjamesqf
1,697711
answered Jan 21 at 3:52
jamesqfjamesqf
1,697711
answered Jan 21 at 3:52
jamesqfjamesqf
1,697711
1,697711
8
He was under the malign influence of BigFantasyWriters. They set up a honey pot and blackmailed him to create faulty worlds so they'd have something to write about.
– RedSonja
Jan 21 at 11:40
1
This answer seems to contradict the actual quote from the books shown in the other answer. By that quote, seems this is neither "doesn't care", nor "learning experience" case.
– hyde
Jan 21 at 19:35
@hyde: Depends on what you think is an appropriate answer. As comments to that answer point out, the quote from the books is just a re-wording of real-world (insert religion of choice) "explanations". which I find entirely unsatisfying.
– jamesqf
Jan 22 at 5:09
3
What I mean is, this answer is just speculation without references. Unlike with (insert real world deity of choice), with Tolkiens world we have actual words written by Tolkien, as well as some knowledge of the person, Tolkien, and his beliefs.
– hyde
Jan 22 at 6:49
@hyde: But invoking Tolkien's beliefs answers a different question, "Why did Tolkien choose to write his invented mythology with a non-interventionist god?" You start by assuming that it's something he invented; I assume that he reports on something that exists.
– jamesqf
Jan 22 at 17:49
|
show 3 more comments
8
He was under the malign influence of BigFantasyWriters. They set up a honey pot and blackmailed him to create faulty worlds so they'd have something to write about.
– RedSonja
Jan 21 at 11:40
1
This answer seems to contradict the actual quote from the books shown in the other answer. By that quote, seems this is neither "doesn't care", nor "learning experience" case.
– hyde
Jan 21 at 19:35
@hyde: Depends on what you think is an appropriate answer. As comments to that answer point out, the quote from the books is just a re-wording of real-world (insert religion of choice) "explanations". which I find entirely unsatisfying.
– jamesqf
Jan 22 at 5:09
3
What I mean is, this answer is just speculation without references. Unlike with (insert real world deity of choice), with Tolkiens world we have actual words written by Tolkien, as well as some knowledge of the person, Tolkien, and his beliefs.
– hyde
Jan 22 at 6:49
@hyde: But invoking Tolkien's beliefs answers a different question, "Why did Tolkien choose to write his invented mythology with a non-interventionist god?" You start by assuming that it's something he invented; I assume that he reports on something that exists.
– jamesqf
Jan 22 at 17:49
8
8
He was under the malign influence of BigFantasyWriters. They set up a honey pot and blackmailed him to create faulty worlds so they'd have something to write about.
– RedSonja
Jan 21 at 11:40
He was under the malign influence of BigFantasyWriters. They set up a honey pot and blackmailed him to create faulty worlds so they'd have something to write about.
– RedSonja
Jan 21 at 11:40
1
1
This answer seems to contradict the actual quote from the books shown in the other answer. By that quote, seems this is neither "doesn't care", nor "learning experience" case.
– hyde
Jan 21 at 19:35
This answer seems to contradict the actual quote from the books shown in the other answer. By that quote, seems this is neither "doesn't care", nor "learning experience" case.
– hyde
Jan 21 at 19:35
@hyde: Depends on what you think is an appropriate answer. As comments to that answer point out, the quote from the books is just a re-wording of real-world (insert religion of choice) "explanations". which I find entirely unsatisfying.
– jamesqf
Jan 22 at 5:09
@hyde: Depends on what you think is an appropriate answer. As comments to that answer point out, the quote from the books is just a re-wording of real-world (insert religion of choice) "explanations". which I find entirely unsatisfying.
– jamesqf
Jan 22 at 5:09
3
3
What I mean is, this answer is just speculation without references. Unlike with (insert real world deity of choice), with Tolkiens world we have actual words written by Tolkien, as well as some knowledge of the person, Tolkien, and his beliefs.
– hyde
Jan 22 at 6:49
What I mean is, this answer is just speculation without references. Unlike with (insert real world deity of choice), with Tolkiens world we have actual words written by Tolkien, as well as some knowledge of the person, Tolkien, and his beliefs.
– hyde
Jan 22 at 6:49
@hyde: But invoking Tolkien's beliefs answers a different question, "Why did Tolkien choose to write his invented mythology with a non-interventionist god?" You start by assuming that it's something he invented; I assume that he reports on something that exists.
– jamesqf
Jan 22 at 17:49
@hyde: But invoking Tolkien's beliefs answers a different question, "Why did Tolkien choose to write his invented mythology with a non-interventionist god?" You start by assuming that it's something he invented; I assume that he reports on something that exists.
– jamesqf
Jan 22 at 17:49
|
show 3 more comments
The Ainur, each inherited an aspect of Eru which is to say that Morgoth was just as much a part of Eru as any of the other Ainur.
The question is not why would he not stop Morgoth from causing trouble so much as, did he see Morgoth as trouble to begin with. Nature lasts longest when there is a balance between creation & destruction; so, Eru would have likely seen Morgoth's actions with the same approval that a homeowner would have for a gardener pruning his bushes... it's just really hard to see it that way when you are the bush.
answered Jan 22 at 22:30
NosajimikiNosajimiki
1113
New contributor
Nosajimiki is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
The Ainur, each inherited an aspect of Eru which is to say that Morgoth was just as much a part of Eru as any of the other Ainur.
The question is not why would he not stop Morgoth from causing trouble so much as, did he see Morgoth as trouble to begin with. Nature lasts longest when there is a balance between creation & destruction; so, Eru would have likely seen Morgoth's actions with the same approval that a homeowner would have for a gardener pruning his bushes... it's just really hard to see it that way when you are the bush.
answered Jan 22 at 22:30
NosajimikiNosajimiki
1113
New contributor
Nosajimiki is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
The Ainur, each inherited an aspect of Eru which is to say that Morgoth was just as much a part of Eru as any of the other Ainur.
The question is not why would he not stop Morgoth from causing trouble so much as, did he see Morgoth as trouble to begin with. Nature lasts longest when there is a balance between creation & destruction; so, Eru would have likely seen Morgoth's actions with the same approval that a homeowner would have for a gardener pruning his bushes... it's just really hard to see it that way when you are the bush.
answered Jan 22 at 22:30
NosajimikiNosajimiki
1113
New contributor
Nosajimiki is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
The Ainur, each inherited an aspect of Eru which is to say that Morgoth was just as much a part of Eru as any of the other Ainur.
The question is not why would he not stop Morgoth from causing trouble so much as, did he see Morgoth as trouble to begin with. Nature lasts longest when there is a balance between creation & destruction; so, Eru would have likely seen Morgoth's actions with the same approval that a homeowner would have for a gardener pruning his bushes... it's just really hard to see it that way when you are the bush.
answered Jan 22 at 22:30
NosajimikiNosajimiki
1113
New contributor
Nosajimiki is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered Jan 22 at 22:30
NosajimikiNosajimiki
1113
New contributor
Nosajimiki is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered Jan 22 at 22:30
NosajimikiNosajimiki
1113
answered Jan 22 at 22:30
NosajimikiNosajimiki
1113
1113
New contributor
Nosajimiki is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Nosajimiki is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Nosajimiki is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
add a comment |
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25
Why would god create evil?
– Lexible
Jan 21 at 2:10
1
I read the Silmarillion a long, long time ago, but I don't remember Eru intervening a lot through it. Was he particularly active and present after the creation ?
– Don Pablo
Jan 21 at 13:04
5
He did, indirectly.
– Mithoron
Jan 21 at 16:48
Same reason the fellowship of the ring didn't just use the eagles to drop the ring into Orodruin, I guess. Or why Tulkas didn't just beat up Melkor and make him put the lamps back up, etc.
– einpoklum
Jan 23 at 9:27
related: scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/64471/…
– vaxquis
Jan 23 at 11:52