Giving an explicit example showing that AC is independent of ZF.











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I know that the axiom of choice (AC)




For any set $X$ of nonempty sets, there exists a choice function defined on $X$.




is independent of ZF. Can one give an explicit example of such a set $X$ so that we have this independence?










share|cite|improve this question
























  • No, it's a forcing argument, combined with the existence of the constructible universe that shows this independence. I'll leave this to @AsafKaragila, the expert on these matters.
    – Henno Brandsma
    Nov 25 at 16:14















up vote
4
down vote

favorite
1












I know that the axiom of choice (AC)




For any set $X$ of nonempty sets, there exists a choice function defined on $X$.




is independent of ZF. Can one give an explicit example of such a set $X$ so that we have this independence?










share|cite|improve this question
























  • No, it's a forcing argument, combined with the existence of the constructible universe that shows this independence. I'll leave this to @AsafKaragila, the expert on these matters.
    – Henno Brandsma
    Nov 25 at 16:14













up vote
4
down vote

favorite
1









up vote
4
down vote

favorite
1






1





I know that the axiom of choice (AC)




For any set $X$ of nonempty sets, there exists a choice function defined on $X$.




is independent of ZF. Can one give an explicit example of such a set $X$ so that we have this independence?










share|cite|improve this question















I know that the axiom of choice (AC)




For any set $X$ of nonempty sets, there exists a choice function defined on $X$.




is independent of ZF. Can one give an explicit example of such a set $X$ so that we have this independence?







logic set-theory axiom-of-choice






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Nov 25 at 16:12









Henno Brandsma

102k345108




102k345108










asked Nov 25 at 16:11









A. Chu

6,96483083




6,96483083












  • No, it's a forcing argument, combined with the existence of the constructible universe that shows this independence. I'll leave this to @AsafKaragila, the expert on these matters.
    – Henno Brandsma
    Nov 25 at 16:14


















  • No, it's a forcing argument, combined with the existence of the constructible universe that shows this independence. I'll leave this to @AsafKaragila, the expert on these matters.
    – Henno Brandsma
    Nov 25 at 16:14
















No, it's a forcing argument, combined with the existence of the constructible universe that shows this independence. I'll leave this to @AsafKaragila, the expert on these matters.
– Henno Brandsma
Nov 25 at 16:14




No, it's a forcing argument, combined with the existence of the constructible universe that shows this independence. I'll leave this to @AsafKaragila, the expert on these matters.
– Henno Brandsma
Nov 25 at 16:14










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
4
down vote



accepted










Depending on what exactly you mean by "explicit example," we can do this.



The situation is simpler with respect to the well-ordering principle, which after all is equivalent to the axiom of choice: it is consistent with ZF that $mathbb{R}$ cannot be well-ordered.



To translate this into a concrete example of a possible failure of the axiom of choice, we can look at the proof that the axiom of choice implies the well-ordering principle: all we need to do in order to well-order $mathbb{R}$ is have a way to, given $Asubsetneqmathbb{R}$, pick some $ainmathbb{R}setminus A$, and so this means that the family $$(mathbb{R}setminus A)_{Asubsetneqmathbb{R}}$$ consistently has no choice function.



Of course, a snappier way to say this is that consistently the family of nonempty (as opposed to proper) subsets of $mathbb{R}$ does not have a choice function - we just switch from $A$ to $mathbb{R}setminus A$ - but the formulation above makes the connection with the well-orderability of $mathbb{R}$ clearer.





Now there are many subtleties around this. I'll mention just one (looking at the well-ordering principle instead of choice, just for simplicity):



Since $mathbb{R}$ is consistently non-well-orderable, there is no formula $varphi$ in the language of set theory which ZF proves is a well-ordering of $mathbb{R}$. However, this does notmean that there can be no definable well-ordering of $mathbb{R}$! There are many formulas which consistently define well-orderings of $mathbb{R}$, chiefly among them the following:




$rtriangleleft s$ iff $r$ precedes $s$ in the canonical well-ordering of $L$.




Here $L$ is Godel's constructible universe, which has a definable (class) well-ordering (if you prefer to avoid proper classes, you can just look at $L_{omega_1}$ since $mathbb{R}cap L=mathbb{R}cap L_{omega_1}$).



We can, however, do even snappier. It is disturbingly possible for everything to be definable: that is, there are models $Mmodels$ ZF such that every element of $M$ is definable in $M$ without parameters. In this case, the usual lexicographic well-ordering on the set of formulas in the language of set theory yields a well-ordering of the whole model, which restricts to a well-ordering of $mathbb{R}$ (or rather, what the model thinks is $mathbb{R}$). I mention this because it's a good example of just how subtle the situation can be, and starts to indicate why the "explicit example" above may not be as satisfying as it first appears.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • You missed the clause $Aneemptyset$.
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Nov 25 at 18:59










  • @AndrésE.Caicedo Hm? I'm picking a real not in $A$, so $A=emptyset$ is fine - it's $A=mathbb{R}$ I need to rule out, which I did via "$subsetneq$" instead of "$subseteq$." Or am I missing something?
    – Noah Schweber
    Nov 25 at 19:43












  • @AndrésE.Caicedo I've added a clause to clarify.
    – Noah Schweber
    Nov 25 at 20:11










  • Ah, yes. Sorry) :-)
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Nov 25 at 20:20


















up vote
4
down vote













The simplest example, I guess, is the power set of the real numbers (without the real numbers).



It is consistent that there is no choice function from that set, and of course assuming choice, there is a choice function.



But there is a subtle issue here or syntactic and semantic point. Since we can add a choice function for a fixed family by forcing, or similarly we can always extend a model of ZF so there is no choice function from the sets of real numbers, we need to be careful and ask what are the sets of reals. In different models the answer would be different.



In addition to that, starting from a model of ZFC, we can make choice fail badly but keeping some initial segment of the universe well ordered (and thus admitting a choice function). So this adds even more confusion to the fire, as Henno points out in the comments, which set is not well ordered is not something that ZF itself can decide. Not even ZF with the failure of AC.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • Quibble: $mathcal{P}(mathbb{R})setminus{emptyset}$.
    – Noah Schweber
    Nov 25 at 20:12










  • I wrote this from my phone in a car on the way to Rome with shoddy connection. What's your excuse? :-)
    – Asaf Karagila
    Nov 25 at 22:21











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2 Answers
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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes








up vote
4
down vote



accepted










Depending on what exactly you mean by "explicit example," we can do this.



The situation is simpler with respect to the well-ordering principle, which after all is equivalent to the axiom of choice: it is consistent with ZF that $mathbb{R}$ cannot be well-ordered.



To translate this into a concrete example of a possible failure of the axiom of choice, we can look at the proof that the axiom of choice implies the well-ordering principle: all we need to do in order to well-order $mathbb{R}$ is have a way to, given $Asubsetneqmathbb{R}$, pick some $ainmathbb{R}setminus A$, and so this means that the family $$(mathbb{R}setminus A)_{Asubsetneqmathbb{R}}$$ consistently has no choice function.



Of course, a snappier way to say this is that consistently the family of nonempty (as opposed to proper) subsets of $mathbb{R}$ does not have a choice function - we just switch from $A$ to $mathbb{R}setminus A$ - but the formulation above makes the connection with the well-orderability of $mathbb{R}$ clearer.





Now there are many subtleties around this. I'll mention just one (looking at the well-ordering principle instead of choice, just for simplicity):



Since $mathbb{R}$ is consistently non-well-orderable, there is no formula $varphi$ in the language of set theory which ZF proves is a well-ordering of $mathbb{R}$. However, this does notmean that there can be no definable well-ordering of $mathbb{R}$! There are many formulas which consistently define well-orderings of $mathbb{R}$, chiefly among them the following:




$rtriangleleft s$ iff $r$ precedes $s$ in the canonical well-ordering of $L$.




Here $L$ is Godel's constructible universe, which has a definable (class) well-ordering (if you prefer to avoid proper classes, you can just look at $L_{omega_1}$ since $mathbb{R}cap L=mathbb{R}cap L_{omega_1}$).



We can, however, do even snappier. It is disturbingly possible for everything to be definable: that is, there are models $Mmodels$ ZF such that every element of $M$ is definable in $M$ without parameters. In this case, the usual lexicographic well-ordering on the set of formulas in the language of set theory yields a well-ordering of the whole model, which restricts to a well-ordering of $mathbb{R}$ (or rather, what the model thinks is $mathbb{R}$). I mention this because it's a good example of just how subtle the situation can be, and starts to indicate why the "explicit example" above may not be as satisfying as it first appears.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • You missed the clause $Aneemptyset$.
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Nov 25 at 18:59










  • @AndrésE.Caicedo Hm? I'm picking a real not in $A$, so $A=emptyset$ is fine - it's $A=mathbb{R}$ I need to rule out, which I did via "$subsetneq$" instead of "$subseteq$." Or am I missing something?
    – Noah Schweber
    Nov 25 at 19:43












  • @AndrésE.Caicedo I've added a clause to clarify.
    – Noah Schweber
    Nov 25 at 20:11










  • Ah, yes. Sorry) :-)
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Nov 25 at 20:20















up vote
4
down vote



accepted










Depending on what exactly you mean by "explicit example," we can do this.



The situation is simpler with respect to the well-ordering principle, which after all is equivalent to the axiom of choice: it is consistent with ZF that $mathbb{R}$ cannot be well-ordered.



To translate this into a concrete example of a possible failure of the axiom of choice, we can look at the proof that the axiom of choice implies the well-ordering principle: all we need to do in order to well-order $mathbb{R}$ is have a way to, given $Asubsetneqmathbb{R}$, pick some $ainmathbb{R}setminus A$, and so this means that the family $$(mathbb{R}setminus A)_{Asubsetneqmathbb{R}}$$ consistently has no choice function.



Of course, a snappier way to say this is that consistently the family of nonempty (as opposed to proper) subsets of $mathbb{R}$ does not have a choice function - we just switch from $A$ to $mathbb{R}setminus A$ - but the formulation above makes the connection with the well-orderability of $mathbb{R}$ clearer.





Now there are many subtleties around this. I'll mention just one (looking at the well-ordering principle instead of choice, just for simplicity):



Since $mathbb{R}$ is consistently non-well-orderable, there is no formula $varphi$ in the language of set theory which ZF proves is a well-ordering of $mathbb{R}$. However, this does notmean that there can be no definable well-ordering of $mathbb{R}$! There are many formulas which consistently define well-orderings of $mathbb{R}$, chiefly among them the following:




$rtriangleleft s$ iff $r$ precedes $s$ in the canonical well-ordering of $L$.




Here $L$ is Godel's constructible universe, which has a definable (class) well-ordering (if you prefer to avoid proper classes, you can just look at $L_{omega_1}$ since $mathbb{R}cap L=mathbb{R}cap L_{omega_1}$).



We can, however, do even snappier. It is disturbingly possible for everything to be definable: that is, there are models $Mmodels$ ZF such that every element of $M$ is definable in $M$ without parameters. In this case, the usual lexicographic well-ordering on the set of formulas in the language of set theory yields a well-ordering of the whole model, which restricts to a well-ordering of $mathbb{R}$ (or rather, what the model thinks is $mathbb{R}$). I mention this because it's a good example of just how subtle the situation can be, and starts to indicate why the "explicit example" above may not be as satisfying as it first appears.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • You missed the clause $Aneemptyset$.
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Nov 25 at 18:59










  • @AndrésE.Caicedo Hm? I'm picking a real not in $A$, so $A=emptyset$ is fine - it's $A=mathbb{R}$ I need to rule out, which I did via "$subsetneq$" instead of "$subseteq$." Or am I missing something?
    – Noah Schweber
    Nov 25 at 19:43












  • @AndrésE.Caicedo I've added a clause to clarify.
    – Noah Schweber
    Nov 25 at 20:11










  • Ah, yes. Sorry) :-)
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Nov 25 at 20:20













up vote
4
down vote



accepted







up vote
4
down vote



accepted






Depending on what exactly you mean by "explicit example," we can do this.



The situation is simpler with respect to the well-ordering principle, which after all is equivalent to the axiom of choice: it is consistent with ZF that $mathbb{R}$ cannot be well-ordered.



To translate this into a concrete example of a possible failure of the axiom of choice, we can look at the proof that the axiom of choice implies the well-ordering principle: all we need to do in order to well-order $mathbb{R}$ is have a way to, given $Asubsetneqmathbb{R}$, pick some $ainmathbb{R}setminus A$, and so this means that the family $$(mathbb{R}setminus A)_{Asubsetneqmathbb{R}}$$ consistently has no choice function.



Of course, a snappier way to say this is that consistently the family of nonempty (as opposed to proper) subsets of $mathbb{R}$ does not have a choice function - we just switch from $A$ to $mathbb{R}setminus A$ - but the formulation above makes the connection with the well-orderability of $mathbb{R}$ clearer.





Now there are many subtleties around this. I'll mention just one (looking at the well-ordering principle instead of choice, just for simplicity):



Since $mathbb{R}$ is consistently non-well-orderable, there is no formula $varphi$ in the language of set theory which ZF proves is a well-ordering of $mathbb{R}$. However, this does notmean that there can be no definable well-ordering of $mathbb{R}$! There are many formulas which consistently define well-orderings of $mathbb{R}$, chiefly among them the following:




$rtriangleleft s$ iff $r$ precedes $s$ in the canonical well-ordering of $L$.




Here $L$ is Godel's constructible universe, which has a definable (class) well-ordering (if you prefer to avoid proper classes, you can just look at $L_{omega_1}$ since $mathbb{R}cap L=mathbb{R}cap L_{omega_1}$).



We can, however, do even snappier. It is disturbingly possible for everything to be definable: that is, there are models $Mmodels$ ZF such that every element of $M$ is definable in $M$ without parameters. In this case, the usual lexicographic well-ordering on the set of formulas in the language of set theory yields a well-ordering of the whole model, which restricts to a well-ordering of $mathbb{R}$ (or rather, what the model thinks is $mathbb{R}$). I mention this because it's a good example of just how subtle the situation can be, and starts to indicate why the "explicit example" above may not be as satisfying as it first appears.






share|cite|improve this answer














Depending on what exactly you mean by "explicit example," we can do this.



The situation is simpler with respect to the well-ordering principle, which after all is equivalent to the axiom of choice: it is consistent with ZF that $mathbb{R}$ cannot be well-ordered.



To translate this into a concrete example of a possible failure of the axiom of choice, we can look at the proof that the axiom of choice implies the well-ordering principle: all we need to do in order to well-order $mathbb{R}$ is have a way to, given $Asubsetneqmathbb{R}$, pick some $ainmathbb{R}setminus A$, and so this means that the family $$(mathbb{R}setminus A)_{Asubsetneqmathbb{R}}$$ consistently has no choice function.



Of course, a snappier way to say this is that consistently the family of nonempty (as opposed to proper) subsets of $mathbb{R}$ does not have a choice function - we just switch from $A$ to $mathbb{R}setminus A$ - but the formulation above makes the connection with the well-orderability of $mathbb{R}$ clearer.





Now there are many subtleties around this. I'll mention just one (looking at the well-ordering principle instead of choice, just for simplicity):



Since $mathbb{R}$ is consistently non-well-orderable, there is no formula $varphi$ in the language of set theory which ZF proves is a well-ordering of $mathbb{R}$. However, this does notmean that there can be no definable well-ordering of $mathbb{R}$! There are many formulas which consistently define well-orderings of $mathbb{R}$, chiefly among them the following:




$rtriangleleft s$ iff $r$ precedes $s$ in the canonical well-ordering of $L$.




Here $L$ is Godel's constructible universe, which has a definable (class) well-ordering (if you prefer to avoid proper classes, you can just look at $L_{omega_1}$ since $mathbb{R}cap L=mathbb{R}cap L_{omega_1}$).



We can, however, do even snappier. It is disturbingly possible for everything to be definable: that is, there are models $Mmodels$ ZF such that every element of $M$ is definable in $M$ without parameters. In this case, the usual lexicographic well-ordering on the set of formulas in the language of set theory yields a well-ordering of the whole model, which restricts to a well-ordering of $mathbb{R}$ (or rather, what the model thinks is $mathbb{R}$). I mention this because it's a good example of just how subtle the situation can be, and starts to indicate why the "explicit example" above may not be as satisfying as it first appears.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Nov 25 at 20:11

























answered Nov 25 at 17:32









Noah Schweber

118k10145276




118k10145276












  • You missed the clause $Aneemptyset$.
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Nov 25 at 18:59










  • @AndrésE.Caicedo Hm? I'm picking a real not in $A$, so $A=emptyset$ is fine - it's $A=mathbb{R}$ I need to rule out, which I did via "$subsetneq$" instead of "$subseteq$." Or am I missing something?
    – Noah Schweber
    Nov 25 at 19:43












  • @AndrésE.Caicedo I've added a clause to clarify.
    – Noah Schweber
    Nov 25 at 20:11










  • Ah, yes. Sorry) :-)
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Nov 25 at 20:20


















  • You missed the clause $Aneemptyset$.
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Nov 25 at 18:59










  • @AndrésE.Caicedo Hm? I'm picking a real not in $A$, so $A=emptyset$ is fine - it's $A=mathbb{R}$ I need to rule out, which I did via "$subsetneq$" instead of "$subseteq$." Or am I missing something?
    – Noah Schweber
    Nov 25 at 19:43












  • @AndrésE.Caicedo I've added a clause to clarify.
    – Noah Schweber
    Nov 25 at 20:11










  • Ah, yes. Sorry) :-)
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Nov 25 at 20:20
















You missed the clause $Aneemptyset$.
– Andrés E. Caicedo
Nov 25 at 18:59




You missed the clause $Aneemptyset$.
– Andrés E. Caicedo
Nov 25 at 18:59












@AndrésE.Caicedo Hm? I'm picking a real not in $A$, so $A=emptyset$ is fine - it's $A=mathbb{R}$ I need to rule out, which I did via "$subsetneq$" instead of "$subseteq$." Or am I missing something?
– Noah Schweber
Nov 25 at 19:43






@AndrésE.Caicedo Hm? I'm picking a real not in $A$, so $A=emptyset$ is fine - it's $A=mathbb{R}$ I need to rule out, which I did via "$subsetneq$" instead of "$subseteq$." Or am I missing something?
– Noah Schweber
Nov 25 at 19:43














@AndrésE.Caicedo I've added a clause to clarify.
– Noah Schweber
Nov 25 at 20:11




@AndrésE.Caicedo I've added a clause to clarify.
– Noah Schweber
Nov 25 at 20:11












Ah, yes. Sorry) :-)
– Andrés E. Caicedo
Nov 25 at 20:20




Ah, yes. Sorry) :-)
– Andrés E. Caicedo
Nov 25 at 20:20










up vote
4
down vote













The simplest example, I guess, is the power set of the real numbers (without the real numbers).



It is consistent that there is no choice function from that set, and of course assuming choice, there is a choice function.



But there is a subtle issue here or syntactic and semantic point. Since we can add a choice function for a fixed family by forcing, or similarly we can always extend a model of ZF so there is no choice function from the sets of real numbers, we need to be careful and ask what are the sets of reals. In different models the answer would be different.



In addition to that, starting from a model of ZFC, we can make choice fail badly but keeping some initial segment of the universe well ordered (and thus admitting a choice function). So this adds even more confusion to the fire, as Henno points out in the comments, which set is not well ordered is not something that ZF itself can decide. Not even ZF with the failure of AC.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • Quibble: $mathcal{P}(mathbb{R})setminus{emptyset}$.
    – Noah Schweber
    Nov 25 at 20:12










  • I wrote this from my phone in a car on the way to Rome with shoddy connection. What's your excuse? :-)
    – Asaf Karagila
    Nov 25 at 22:21















up vote
4
down vote













The simplest example, I guess, is the power set of the real numbers (without the real numbers).



It is consistent that there is no choice function from that set, and of course assuming choice, there is a choice function.



But there is a subtle issue here or syntactic and semantic point. Since we can add a choice function for a fixed family by forcing, or similarly we can always extend a model of ZF so there is no choice function from the sets of real numbers, we need to be careful and ask what are the sets of reals. In different models the answer would be different.



In addition to that, starting from a model of ZFC, we can make choice fail badly but keeping some initial segment of the universe well ordered (and thus admitting a choice function). So this adds even more confusion to the fire, as Henno points out in the comments, which set is not well ordered is not something that ZF itself can decide. Not even ZF with the failure of AC.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • Quibble: $mathcal{P}(mathbb{R})setminus{emptyset}$.
    – Noah Schweber
    Nov 25 at 20:12










  • I wrote this from my phone in a car on the way to Rome with shoddy connection. What's your excuse? :-)
    – Asaf Karagila
    Nov 25 at 22:21













up vote
4
down vote










up vote
4
down vote









The simplest example, I guess, is the power set of the real numbers (without the real numbers).



It is consistent that there is no choice function from that set, and of course assuming choice, there is a choice function.



But there is a subtle issue here or syntactic and semantic point. Since we can add a choice function for a fixed family by forcing, or similarly we can always extend a model of ZF so there is no choice function from the sets of real numbers, we need to be careful and ask what are the sets of reals. In different models the answer would be different.



In addition to that, starting from a model of ZFC, we can make choice fail badly but keeping some initial segment of the universe well ordered (and thus admitting a choice function). So this adds even more confusion to the fire, as Henno points out in the comments, which set is not well ordered is not something that ZF itself can decide. Not even ZF with the failure of AC.






share|cite|improve this answer














The simplest example, I guess, is the power set of the real numbers (without the real numbers).



It is consistent that there is no choice function from that set, and of course assuming choice, there is a choice function.



But there is a subtle issue here or syntactic and semantic point. Since we can add a choice function for a fixed family by forcing, or similarly we can always extend a model of ZF so there is no choice function from the sets of real numbers, we need to be careful and ask what are the sets of reals. In different models the answer would be different.



In addition to that, starting from a model of ZFC, we can make choice fail badly but keeping some initial segment of the universe well ordered (and thus admitting a choice function). So this adds even more confusion to the fire, as Henno points out in the comments, which set is not well ordered is not something that ZF itself can decide. Not even ZF with the failure of AC.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Nov 25 at 22:22

























answered Nov 25 at 17:31









Asaf Karagila

300k32421751




300k32421751












  • Quibble: $mathcal{P}(mathbb{R})setminus{emptyset}$.
    – Noah Schweber
    Nov 25 at 20:12










  • I wrote this from my phone in a car on the way to Rome with shoddy connection. What's your excuse? :-)
    – Asaf Karagila
    Nov 25 at 22:21


















  • Quibble: $mathcal{P}(mathbb{R})setminus{emptyset}$.
    – Noah Schweber
    Nov 25 at 20:12










  • I wrote this from my phone in a car on the way to Rome with shoddy connection. What's your excuse? :-)
    – Asaf Karagila
    Nov 25 at 22:21
















Quibble: $mathcal{P}(mathbb{R})setminus{emptyset}$.
– Noah Schweber
Nov 25 at 20:12




Quibble: $mathcal{P}(mathbb{R})setminus{emptyset}$.
– Noah Schweber
Nov 25 at 20:12












I wrote this from my phone in a car on the way to Rome with shoddy connection. What's your excuse? :-)
– Asaf Karagila
Nov 25 at 22:21




I wrote this from my phone in a car on the way to Rome with shoddy connection. What's your excuse? :-)
– Asaf Karagila
Nov 25 at 22:21


















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