Expected and actual unity gain bandwidth LM324N











up vote
10
down vote

favorite












I have an LM324N configured as a unity gain voltage follower. The split rail power supply +/- 4.5V is provided using AA batteries. I am aware that better opamps exist, but this is for study purposes only.





schematic





simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



As a lab exercise, I am testing performance of the circuit at various input frequencies whilst maintaining a constant input voltage (2V sine wave). The test circuit is soldered onto prototyping board with short traces.



At low frequencies (e.g. 10kHz), the output signal closely follows the input signal. However, at 60kHz the output signal is distorted (closely resembling a triangular wave form) and has an amplitude approximately 70% of the input signal. At 1MHz, the output has an amplitude of 0.1V.



Reading the datasheet, I understand the LM324N has a Gain Bandwidth Product (GBP) of 1MHz, which suggests to me that I should not expect significant attenuation of the signal at only 60kHz. A GBP of 1MHz suggests an ideal bandwidth of 1MHz at a gain of unity. Is this really achievable and/or have I done something wrong?










share|improve this question


























    up vote
    10
    down vote

    favorite












    I have an LM324N configured as a unity gain voltage follower. The split rail power supply +/- 4.5V is provided using AA batteries. I am aware that better opamps exist, but this is for study purposes only.





    schematic





    simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



    As a lab exercise, I am testing performance of the circuit at various input frequencies whilst maintaining a constant input voltage (2V sine wave). The test circuit is soldered onto prototyping board with short traces.



    At low frequencies (e.g. 10kHz), the output signal closely follows the input signal. However, at 60kHz the output signal is distorted (closely resembling a triangular wave form) and has an amplitude approximately 70% of the input signal. At 1MHz, the output has an amplitude of 0.1V.



    Reading the datasheet, I understand the LM324N has a Gain Bandwidth Product (GBP) of 1MHz, which suggests to me that I should not expect significant attenuation of the signal at only 60kHz. A GBP of 1MHz suggests an ideal bandwidth of 1MHz at a gain of unity. Is this really achievable and/or have I done something wrong?










    share|improve this question
























      up vote
      10
      down vote

      favorite









      up vote
      10
      down vote

      favorite











      I have an LM324N configured as a unity gain voltage follower. The split rail power supply +/- 4.5V is provided using AA batteries. I am aware that better opamps exist, but this is for study purposes only.





      schematic





      simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



      As a lab exercise, I am testing performance of the circuit at various input frequencies whilst maintaining a constant input voltage (2V sine wave). The test circuit is soldered onto prototyping board with short traces.



      At low frequencies (e.g. 10kHz), the output signal closely follows the input signal. However, at 60kHz the output signal is distorted (closely resembling a triangular wave form) and has an amplitude approximately 70% of the input signal. At 1MHz, the output has an amplitude of 0.1V.



      Reading the datasheet, I understand the LM324N has a Gain Bandwidth Product (GBP) of 1MHz, which suggests to me that I should not expect significant attenuation of the signal at only 60kHz. A GBP of 1MHz suggests an ideal bandwidth of 1MHz at a gain of unity. Is this really achievable and/or have I done something wrong?










      share|improve this question













      I have an LM324N configured as a unity gain voltage follower. The split rail power supply +/- 4.5V is provided using AA batteries. I am aware that better opamps exist, but this is for study purposes only.





      schematic





      simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



      As a lab exercise, I am testing performance of the circuit at various input frequencies whilst maintaining a constant input voltage (2V sine wave). The test circuit is soldered onto prototyping board with short traces.



      At low frequencies (e.g. 10kHz), the output signal closely follows the input signal. However, at 60kHz the output signal is distorted (closely resembling a triangular wave form) and has an amplitude approximately 70% of the input signal. At 1MHz, the output has an amplitude of 0.1V.



      Reading the datasheet, I understand the LM324N has a Gain Bandwidth Product (GBP) of 1MHz, which suggests to me that I should not expect significant attenuation of the signal at only 60kHz. A GBP of 1MHz suggests an ideal bandwidth of 1MHz at a gain of unity. Is this really achievable and/or have I done something wrong?







      op-amp unity-gain






      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question











      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question










      asked Nov 14 at 0:27









      Pzy

      1336




      1336






















          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes

















          up vote
          22
          down vote



          accepted










          Gain-bandwidth product is a small signal specification. It only applies to signals under which the op-amp circuitry remains in a linear regime. That is on the order of 100mV or less for a conventional differential input stage.



          With the relatively high frequency 2V you are applying you are well into a large signal regime in which non-linear effects take precedence. The specification that applies in that regime is the slew rate of the amplifier.



          Slew rate limitations are caused by how fast the internal bias currents are able to charge the internal (compensation) capacitances.






          share|improve this answer




























            up vote
            21
            down vote













            The LM324 has a maximum output slew rate of 0.5V/$mu$sec, so it not going to be able to accurately reproduce a 2V amplitude sine wave of more than about:



            $f_{SR} = frac{0.5cdot10^6}{2cdotpicdot2} approx 40kHz $



            To see the unity gain-bandwith directly you can reduce your signal amplitude to perhaps 50mV.






            share|improve this answer

















            • 2




              As soon as I started reading your answer I realised my oversight. I tested the circuit at a range of small signals including 50mV and the gain was as you predicted. Thanks.
              – Pzy
              Nov 14 at 8:37











            Your Answer





            StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
            return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
            StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
            StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["\$", "\$"]]);
            });
            });
            }, "mathjax-editing");

            StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
            return StackExchange.using("schematics", function () {
            StackExchange.schematics.init();
            });
            }, "cicuitlab");

            StackExchange.ready(function() {
            var channelOptions = {
            tags: "".split(" "),
            id: "135"
            };
            initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

            StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
            // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
            if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
            StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
            createEditor();
            });
            }
            else {
            createEditor();
            }
            });

            function createEditor() {
            StackExchange.prepareEditor({
            heartbeatType: 'answer',
            convertImagesToLinks: false,
            noModals: true,
            showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
            reputationToPostImages: null,
            bindNavPrevention: true,
            postfix: "",
            imageUploader: {
            brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
            contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
            allowUrls: true
            },
            onDemand: true,
            discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
            ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
            });


            }
            });














            draft saved

            draft discarded


















            StackExchange.ready(
            function () {
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2felectronics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f406653%2fexpected-and-actual-unity-gain-bandwidth-lm324n%23new-answer', 'question_page');
            }
            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown

























            2 Answers
            2






            active

            oldest

            votes








            2 Answers
            2






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

            votes








            up vote
            22
            down vote



            accepted










            Gain-bandwidth product is a small signal specification. It only applies to signals under which the op-amp circuitry remains in a linear regime. That is on the order of 100mV or less for a conventional differential input stage.



            With the relatively high frequency 2V you are applying you are well into a large signal regime in which non-linear effects take precedence. The specification that applies in that regime is the slew rate of the amplifier.



            Slew rate limitations are caused by how fast the internal bias currents are able to charge the internal (compensation) capacitances.






            share|improve this answer

























              up vote
              22
              down vote



              accepted










              Gain-bandwidth product is a small signal specification. It only applies to signals under which the op-amp circuitry remains in a linear regime. That is on the order of 100mV or less for a conventional differential input stage.



              With the relatively high frequency 2V you are applying you are well into a large signal regime in which non-linear effects take precedence. The specification that applies in that regime is the slew rate of the amplifier.



              Slew rate limitations are caused by how fast the internal bias currents are able to charge the internal (compensation) capacitances.






              share|improve this answer























                up vote
                22
                down vote



                accepted







                up vote
                22
                down vote



                accepted






                Gain-bandwidth product is a small signal specification. It only applies to signals under which the op-amp circuitry remains in a linear regime. That is on the order of 100mV or less for a conventional differential input stage.



                With the relatively high frequency 2V you are applying you are well into a large signal regime in which non-linear effects take precedence. The specification that applies in that regime is the slew rate of the amplifier.



                Slew rate limitations are caused by how fast the internal bias currents are able to charge the internal (compensation) capacitances.






                share|improve this answer












                Gain-bandwidth product is a small signal specification. It only applies to signals under which the op-amp circuitry remains in a linear regime. That is on the order of 100mV or less for a conventional differential input stage.



                With the relatively high frequency 2V you are applying you are well into a large signal regime in which non-linear effects take precedence. The specification that applies in that regime is the slew rate of the amplifier.



                Slew rate limitations are caused by how fast the internal bias currents are able to charge the internal (compensation) capacitances.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered Nov 14 at 1:13









                Edgar Brown

                2,647321




                2,647321
























                    up vote
                    21
                    down vote













                    The LM324 has a maximum output slew rate of 0.5V/$mu$sec, so it not going to be able to accurately reproduce a 2V amplitude sine wave of more than about:



                    $f_{SR} = frac{0.5cdot10^6}{2cdotpicdot2} approx 40kHz $



                    To see the unity gain-bandwith directly you can reduce your signal amplitude to perhaps 50mV.






                    share|improve this answer

















                    • 2




                      As soon as I started reading your answer I realised my oversight. I tested the circuit at a range of small signals including 50mV and the gain was as you predicted. Thanks.
                      – Pzy
                      Nov 14 at 8:37















                    up vote
                    21
                    down vote













                    The LM324 has a maximum output slew rate of 0.5V/$mu$sec, so it not going to be able to accurately reproduce a 2V amplitude sine wave of more than about:



                    $f_{SR} = frac{0.5cdot10^6}{2cdotpicdot2} approx 40kHz $



                    To see the unity gain-bandwith directly you can reduce your signal amplitude to perhaps 50mV.






                    share|improve this answer

















                    • 2




                      As soon as I started reading your answer I realised my oversight. I tested the circuit at a range of small signals including 50mV and the gain was as you predicted. Thanks.
                      – Pzy
                      Nov 14 at 8:37













                    up vote
                    21
                    down vote










                    up vote
                    21
                    down vote









                    The LM324 has a maximum output slew rate of 0.5V/$mu$sec, so it not going to be able to accurately reproduce a 2V amplitude sine wave of more than about:



                    $f_{SR} = frac{0.5cdot10^6}{2cdotpicdot2} approx 40kHz $



                    To see the unity gain-bandwith directly you can reduce your signal amplitude to perhaps 50mV.






                    share|improve this answer












                    The LM324 has a maximum output slew rate of 0.5V/$mu$sec, so it not going to be able to accurately reproduce a 2V amplitude sine wave of more than about:



                    $f_{SR} = frac{0.5cdot10^6}{2cdotpicdot2} approx 40kHz $



                    To see the unity gain-bandwith directly you can reduce your signal amplitude to perhaps 50mV.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered Nov 14 at 1:08









                    Spehro Pefhany

                    201k4146399




                    201k4146399








                    • 2




                      As soon as I started reading your answer I realised my oversight. I tested the circuit at a range of small signals including 50mV and the gain was as you predicted. Thanks.
                      – Pzy
                      Nov 14 at 8:37














                    • 2




                      As soon as I started reading your answer I realised my oversight. I tested the circuit at a range of small signals including 50mV and the gain was as you predicted. Thanks.
                      – Pzy
                      Nov 14 at 8:37








                    2




                    2




                    As soon as I started reading your answer I realised my oversight. I tested the circuit at a range of small signals including 50mV and the gain was as you predicted. Thanks.
                    – Pzy
                    Nov 14 at 8:37




                    As soon as I started reading your answer I realised my oversight. I tested the circuit at a range of small signals including 50mV and the gain was as you predicted. Thanks.
                    – Pzy
                    Nov 14 at 8:37


















                    draft saved

                    draft discarded




















































                    Thanks for contributing an answer to Electrical Engineering Stack Exchange!


                    • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                    But avoid



                    • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                    • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                    Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                    To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.





                    Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.


                    Please pay close attention to the following guidance:


                    • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                    But avoid



                    • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                    • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                    To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                    draft saved


                    draft discarded














                    StackExchange.ready(
                    function () {
                    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2felectronics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f406653%2fexpected-and-actual-unity-gain-bandwidth-lm324n%23new-answer', 'question_page');
                    }
                    );

                    Post as a guest















                    Required, but never shown





















































                    Required, but never shown














                    Required, but never shown












                    Required, but never shown







                    Required, but never shown

































                    Required, but never shown














                    Required, but never shown












                    Required, but never shown







                    Required, but never shown







                    Popular posts from this blog

                    How to change which sound is reproduced for terminal bell?

                    Can I use Tabulator js library in my java Spring + Thymeleaf project?

                    Title Spacing in Bjornstrup Chapter, Removing Chapter Number From Contents