Is there a continuous monotone function that fails to be differentiable on a dense subset of $mathbb{R}$?












0












$begingroup$


My textbook is asking to construct such a function, but this thread seems to say that's not possible. What am I missing here? I want to construct a function that's not differentiable for $x=c$, for any $c$ in the interval.



I am referring to part B below: this problem.










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$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Nowhere differentiable is not the same as being non-differentiable on a dense set.
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 '18 at 14:00






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Maybe one can do something similar to the Devil's staircase?
    $endgroup$
    – Arthur
    Nov 29 '18 at 14:14










  • $begingroup$
    @Arthur The Cantor function is only non-differentiable on the Cantor set, which is not dense in $mathbb{R}$.
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 '18 at 14:20










  • $begingroup$
    @XanderHenderson Which is why I didn't post it as an answer. I don't even know if the approach is possible to adapt to a dense set.
    $endgroup$
    – Arthur
    Nov 29 '18 at 14:23












  • $begingroup$
    @bob Can you tell from which book you found this excercise?
    $endgroup$
    – SRJ
    Nov 29 '18 at 14:58
















0












$begingroup$


My textbook is asking to construct such a function, but this thread seems to say that's not possible. What am I missing here? I want to construct a function that's not differentiable for $x=c$, for any $c$ in the interval.



I am referring to part B below: this problem.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Nowhere differentiable is not the same as being non-differentiable on a dense set.
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 '18 at 14:00






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Maybe one can do something similar to the Devil's staircase?
    $endgroup$
    – Arthur
    Nov 29 '18 at 14:14










  • $begingroup$
    @Arthur The Cantor function is only non-differentiable on the Cantor set, which is not dense in $mathbb{R}$.
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 '18 at 14:20










  • $begingroup$
    @XanderHenderson Which is why I didn't post it as an answer. I don't even know if the approach is possible to adapt to a dense set.
    $endgroup$
    – Arthur
    Nov 29 '18 at 14:23












  • $begingroup$
    @bob Can you tell from which book you found this excercise?
    $endgroup$
    – SRJ
    Nov 29 '18 at 14:58














0












0








0


1



$begingroup$


My textbook is asking to construct such a function, but this thread seems to say that's not possible. What am I missing here? I want to construct a function that's not differentiable for $x=c$, for any $c$ in the interval.



I am referring to part B below: this problem.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




My textbook is asking to construct such a function, but this thread seems to say that's not possible. What am I missing here? I want to construct a function that's not differentiable for $x=c$, for any $c$ in the interval.



I am referring to part B below: this problem.







calculus real-analysis integration derivatives






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Nov 29 '18 at 14:02







bob

















asked Nov 29 '18 at 13:59









bobbob

1089




1089








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Nowhere differentiable is not the same as being non-differentiable on a dense set.
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 '18 at 14:00






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Maybe one can do something similar to the Devil's staircase?
    $endgroup$
    – Arthur
    Nov 29 '18 at 14:14










  • $begingroup$
    @Arthur The Cantor function is only non-differentiable on the Cantor set, which is not dense in $mathbb{R}$.
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 '18 at 14:20










  • $begingroup$
    @XanderHenderson Which is why I didn't post it as an answer. I don't even know if the approach is possible to adapt to a dense set.
    $endgroup$
    – Arthur
    Nov 29 '18 at 14:23












  • $begingroup$
    @bob Can you tell from which book you found this excercise?
    $endgroup$
    – SRJ
    Nov 29 '18 at 14:58














  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Nowhere differentiable is not the same as being non-differentiable on a dense set.
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 '18 at 14:00






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Maybe one can do something similar to the Devil's staircase?
    $endgroup$
    – Arthur
    Nov 29 '18 at 14:14










  • $begingroup$
    @Arthur The Cantor function is only non-differentiable on the Cantor set, which is not dense in $mathbb{R}$.
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 '18 at 14:20










  • $begingroup$
    @XanderHenderson Which is why I didn't post it as an answer. I don't even know if the approach is possible to adapt to a dense set.
    $endgroup$
    – Arthur
    Nov 29 '18 at 14:23












  • $begingroup$
    @bob Can you tell from which book you found this excercise?
    $endgroup$
    – SRJ
    Nov 29 '18 at 14:58








2




2




$begingroup$
Nowhere differentiable is not the same as being non-differentiable on a dense set.
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
Nov 29 '18 at 14:00




$begingroup$
Nowhere differentiable is not the same as being non-differentiable on a dense set.
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
Nov 29 '18 at 14:00




1




1




$begingroup$
Maybe one can do something similar to the Devil's staircase?
$endgroup$
– Arthur
Nov 29 '18 at 14:14




$begingroup$
Maybe one can do something similar to the Devil's staircase?
$endgroup$
– Arthur
Nov 29 '18 at 14:14












$begingroup$
@Arthur The Cantor function is only non-differentiable on the Cantor set, which is not dense in $mathbb{R}$.
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
Nov 29 '18 at 14:20




$begingroup$
@Arthur The Cantor function is only non-differentiable on the Cantor set, which is not dense in $mathbb{R}$.
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
Nov 29 '18 at 14:20












$begingroup$
@XanderHenderson Which is why I didn't post it as an answer. I don't even know if the approach is possible to adapt to a dense set.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
Nov 29 '18 at 14:23






$begingroup$
@XanderHenderson Which is why I didn't post it as an answer. I don't even know if the approach is possible to adapt to a dense set.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
Nov 29 '18 at 14:23














$begingroup$
@bob Can you tell from which book you found this excercise?
$endgroup$
– SRJ
Nov 29 '18 at 14:58




$begingroup$
@bob Can you tell from which book you found this excercise?
$endgroup$
– SRJ
Nov 29 '18 at 14:58










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















6












$begingroup$

The question to which you have linked discusses the impossibility of constructing a function that is continuous, monotone, and nowhere differentiable. However, you are not being asked to construct such a function. You are being asked to construct a continuous, monotone function which is non-differentiable on a dense subset of $mathbb{R}$.



My goto example of such a function is a function which has a little "jump" at each rational number. To build such a function, start by defining
$$ f(x) = begin{cases} 1 & text{if $x ge 0$, and} \ 0 & text{otherwise.} end{cases} $$
This function has a jump discontinuity at zero.



Next, observe that the rational numbers are countable, which implies that there is a bijection $q : mathbb{N} to mathbb{Q}$ which provides an enumeration of $mathbb{Q}$. Let $q_n := q(n)$ for each $ninmathbb{N}$. At each $n$, we are going to define a function $f_n$ which has a jump discontinuity at $q_n$. In order to ensure that the function we get doesn't "blow up", we are going to build the jumps in such a way that they get small relatively quickly. Specifically, define
$$ f_n(x) := frac{f(x-q_n)}{2^n}. $$
If you prefer something more explicit, note that
$$ f_n(x) = begin{cases} 2^{-n} & text{if $x ge q_n$, and} \ 0 & text{otherwise.} end{cases} $$



Because we have chosen the jumps in such a way that they get small fast, we can sum all of these functions and get something that converges. So define
$$ g(x) = sum_{n=1}^{infty} f_n(x). $$
It is not too hard to show that this function converges pointwise and has a discontinuity at every rational number.



Finally, as per the hint in your homework, define
$$ G(x) = int_{a}^x g(x),mathrm{d}x. $$
As per the quoted text, $G$ is not differentiable at any rational number.



Note that I have left out quite a few details which you should fill in. You should make sure that you understand why $mathbb{Q}$ is countable and dense in $mathbb{R}$ (unless these are facts that you are allowed to take for granted).
You should also check that $g$ really is discontinuous at each rational, and you should make sure that you understand why the series defining $g$ actually converges. Finally, it might be a good idea to build $G$ a little more carefully so that it is more artfully restricted to the interval of interest, i.e. the interval $[a,b]$.



EDIT: As per the comment left below by Dave L. Renfro, these kinds of results can be pushed farther to obtain, for example, Lipschitz continuous monotone functions which are non-differentiable on a dense subset of $mathbb{R}$. The relevant discussion is contained in this answer to another question on MSE.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Regarding how far such examples can be pushed that also satisfy an additional restriction (namely, being Lipschitz continuous), see my answer to Monotone Function, Derivative Limit Bounded, Differentiable - 2.
    $endgroup$
    – Dave L. Renfro
    Nov 29 '18 at 15:09












  • $begingroup$
    @DaveL.Renfro Nice!
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 '18 at 18:28











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6












$begingroup$

The question to which you have linked discusses the impossibility of constructing a function that is continuous, monotone, and nowhere differentiable. However, you are not being asked to construct such a function. You are being asked to construct a continuous, monotone function which is non-differentiable on a dense subset of $mathbb{R}$.



My goto example of such a function is a function which has a little "jump" at each rational number. To build such a function, start by defining
$$ f(x) = begin{cases} 1 & text{if $x ge 0$, and} \ 0 & text{otherwise.} end{cases} $$
This function has a jump discontinuity at zero.



Next, observe that the rational numbers are countable, which implies that there is a bijection $q : mathbb{N} to mathbb{Q}$ which provides an enumeration of $mathbb{Q}$. Let $q_n := q(n)$ for each $ninmathbb{N}$. At each $n$, we are going to define a function $f_n$ which has a jump discontinuity at $q_n$. In order to ensure that the function we get doesn't "blow up", we are going to build the jumps in such a way that they get small relatively quickly. Specifically, define
$$ f_n(x) := frac{f(x-q_n)}{2^n}. $$
If you prefer something more explicit, note that
$$ f_n(x) = begin{cases} 2^{-n} & text{if $x ge q_n$, and} \ 0 & text{otherwise.} end{cases} $$



Because we have chosen the jumps in such a way that they get small fast, we can sum all of these functions and get something that converges. So define
$$ g(x) = sum_{n=1}^{infty} f_n(x). $$
It is not too hard to show that this function converges pointwise and has a discontinuity at every rational number.



Finally, as per the hint in your homework, define
$$ G(x) = int_{a}^x g(x),mathrm{d}x. $$
As per the quoted text, $G$ is not differentiable at any rational number.



Note that I have left out quite a few details which you should fill in. You should make sure that you understand why $mathbb{Q}$ is countable and dense in $mathbb{R}$ (unless these are facts that you are allowed to take for granted).
You should also check that $g$ really is discontinuous at each rational, and you should make sure that you understand why the series defining $g$ actually converges. Finally, it might be a good idea to build $G$ a little more carefully so that it is more artfully restricted to the interval of interest, i.e. the interval $[a,b]$.



EDIT: As per the comment left below by Dave L. Renfro, these kinds of results can be pushed farther to obtain, for example, Lipschitz continuous monotone functions which are non-differentiable on a dense subset of $mathbb{R}$. The relevant discussion is contained in this answer to another question on MSE.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Regarding how far such examples can be pushed that also satisfy an additional restriction (namely, being Lipschitz continuous), see my answer to Monotone Function, Derivative Limit Bounded, Differentiable - 2.
    $endgroup$
    – Dave L. Renfro
    Nov 29 '18 at 15:09












  • $begingroup$
    @DaveL.Renfro Nice!
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 '18 at 18:28
















6












$begingroup$

The question to which you have linked discusses the impossibility of constructing a function that is continuous, monotone, and nowhere differentiable. However, you are not being asked to construct such a function. You are being asked to construct a continuous, monotone function which is non-differentiable on a dense subset of $mathbb{R}$.



My goto example of such a function is a function which has a little "jump" at each rational number. To build such a function, start by defining
$$ f(x) = begin{cases} 1 & text{if $x ge 0$, and} \ 0 & text{otherwise.} end{cases} $$
This function has a jump discontinuity at zero.



Next, observe that the rational numbers are countable, which implies that there is a bijection $q : mathbb{N} to mathbb{Q}$ which provides an enumeration of $mathbb{Q}$. Let $q_n := q(n)$ for each $ninmathbb{N}$. At each $n$, we are going to define a function $f_n$ which has a jump discontinuity at $q_n$. In order to ensure that the function we get doesn't "blow up", we are going to build the jumps in such a way that they get small relatively quickly. Specifically, define
$$ f_n(x) := frac{f(x-q_n)}{2^n}. $$
If you prefer something more explicit, note that
$$ f_n(x) = begin{cases} 2^{-n} & text{if $x ge q_n$, and} \ 0 & text{otherwise.} end{cases} $$



Because we have chosen the jumps in such a way that they get small fast, we can sum all of these functions and get something that converges. So define
$$ g(x) = sum_{n=1}^{infty} f_n(x). $$
It is not too hard to show that this function converges pointwise and has a discontinuity at every rational number.



Finally, as per the hint in your homework, define
$$ G(x) = int_{a}^x g(x),mathrm{d}x. $$
As per the quoted text, $G$ is not differentiable at any rational number.



Note that I have left out quite a few details which you should fill in. You should make sure that you understand why $mathbb{Q}$ is countable and dense in $mathbb{R}$ (unless these are facts that you are allowed to take for granted).
You should also check that $g$ really is discontinuous at each rational, and you should make sure that you understand why the series defining $g$ actually converges. Finally, it might be a good idea to build $G$ a little more carefully so that it is more artfully restricted to the interval of interest, i.e. the interval $[a,b]$.



EDIT: As per the comment left below by Dave L. Renfro, these kinds of results can be pushed farther to obtain, for example, Lipschitz continuous monotone functions which are non-differentiable on a dense subset of $mathbb{R}$. The relevant discussion is contained in this answer to another question on MSE.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Regarding how far such examples can be pushed that also satisfy an additional restriction (namely, being Lipschitz continuous), see my answer to Monotone Function, Derivative Limit Bounded, Differentiable - 2.
    $endgroup$
    – Dave L. Renfro
    Nov 29 '18 at 15:09












  • $begingroup$
    @DaveL.Renfro Nice!
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 '18 at 18:28














6












6








6





$begingroup$

The question to which you have linked discusses the impossibility of constructing a function that is continuous, monotone, and nowhere differentiable. However, you are not being asked to construct such a function. You are being asked to construct a continuous, monotone function which is non-differentiable on a dense subset of $mathbb{R}$.



My goto example of such a function is a function which has a little "jump" at each rational number. To build such a function, start by defining
$$ f(x) = begin{cases} 1 & text{if $x ge 0$, and} \ 0 & text{otherwise.} end{cases} $$
This function has a jump discontinuity at zero.



Next, observe that the rational numbers are countable, which implies that there is a bijection $q : mathbb{N} to mathbb{Q}$ which provides an enumeration of $mathbb{Q}$. Let $q_n := q(n)$ for each $ninmathbb{N}$. At each $n$, we are going to define a function $f_n$ which has a jump discontinuity at $q_n$. In order to ensure that the function we get doesn't "blow up", we are going to build the jumps in such a way that they get small relatively quickly. Specifically, define
$$ f_n(x) := frac{f(x-q_n)}{2^n}. $$
If you prefer something more explicit, note that
$$ f_n(x) = begin{cases} 2^{-n} & text{if $x ge q_n$, and} \ 0 & text{otherwise.} end{cases} $$



Because we have chosen the jumps in such a way that they get small fast, we can sum all of these functions and get something that converges. So define
$$ g(x) = sum_{n=1}^{infty} f_n(x). $$
It is not too hard to show that this function converges pointwise and has a discontinuity at every rational number.



Finally, as per the hint in your homework, define
$$ G(x) = int_{a}^x g(x),mathrm{d}x. $$
As per the quoted text, $G$ is not differentiable at any rational number.



Note that I have left out quite a few details which you should fill in. You should make sure that you understand why $mathbb{Q}$ is countable and dense in $mathbb{R}$ (unless these are facts that you are allowed to take for granted).
You should also check that $g$ really is discontinuous at each rational, and you should make sure that you understand why the series defining $g$ actually converges. Finally, it might be a good idea to build $G$ a little more carefully so that it is more artfully restricted to the interval of interest, i.e. the interval $[a,b]$.



EDIT: As per the comment left below by Dave L. Renfro, these kinds of results can be pushed farther to obtain, for example, Lipschitz continuous monotone functions which are non-differentiable on a dense subset of $mathbb{R}$. The relevant discussion is contained in this answer to another question on MSE.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$



The question to which you have linked discusses the impossibility of constructing a function that is continuous, monotone, and nowhere differentiable. However, you are not being asked to construct such a function. You are being asked to construct a continuous, monotone function which is non-differentiable on a dense subset of $mathbb{R}$.



My goto example of such a function is a function which has a little "jump" at each rational number. To build such a function, start by defining
$$ f(x) = begin{cases} 1 & text{if $x ge 0$, and} \ 0 & text{otherwise.} end{cases} $$
This function has a jump discontinuity at zero.



Next, observe that the rational numbers are countable, which implies that there is a bijection $q : mathbb{N} to mathbb{Q}$ which provides an enumeration of $mathbb{Q}$. Let $q_n := q(n)$ for each $ninmathbb{N}$. At each $n$, we are going to define a function $f_n$ which has a jump discontinuity at $q_n$. In order to ensure that the function we get doesn't "blow up", we are going to build the jumps in such a way that they get small relatively quickly. Specifically, define
$$ f_n(x) := frac{f(x-q_n)}{2^n}. $$
If you prefer something more explicit, note that
$$ f_n(x) = begin{cases} 2^{-n} & text{if $x ge q_n$, and} \ 0 & text{otherwise.} end{cases} $$



Because we have chosen the jumps in such a way that they get small fast, we can sum all of these functions and get something that converges. So define
$$ g(x) = sum_{n=1}^{infty} f_n(x). $$
It is not too hard to show that this function converges pointwise and has a discontinuity at every rational number.



Finally, as per the hint in your homework, define
$$ G(x) = int_{a}^x g(x),mathrm{d}x. $$
As per the quoted text, $G$ is not differentiable at any rational number.



Note that I have left out quite a few details which you should fill in. You should make sure that you understand why $mathbb{Q}$ is countable and dense in $mathbb{R}$ (unless these are facts that you are allowed to take for granted).
You should also check that $g$ really is discontinuous at each rational, and you should make sure that you understand why the series defining $g$ actually converges. Finally, it might be a good idea to build $G$ a little more carefully so that it is more artfully restricted to the interval of interest, i.e. the interval $[a,b]$.



EDIT: As per the comment left below by Dave L. Renfro, these kinds of results can be pushed farther to obtain, for example, Lipschitz continuous monotone functions which are non-differentiable on a dense subset of $mathbb{R}$. The relevant discussion is contained in this answer to another question on MSE.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Nov 29 '18 at 18:30

























answered Nov 29 '18 at 14:17









Xander HendersonXander Henderson

14.3k103554




14.3k103554












  • $begingroup$
    Regarding how far such examples can be pushed that also satisfy an additional restriction (namely, being Lipschitz continuous), see my answer to Monotone Function, Derivative Limit Bounded, Differentiable - 2.
    $endgroup$
    – Dave L. Renfro
    Nov 29 '18 at 15:09












  • $begingroup$
    @DaveL.Renfro Nice!
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 '18 at 18:28


















  • $begingroup$
    Regarding how far such examples can be pushed that also satisfy an additional restriction (namely, being Lipschitz continuous), see my answer to Monotone Function, Derivative Limit Bounded, Differentiable - 2.
    $endgroup$
    – Dave L. Renfro
    Nov 29 '18 at 15:09












  • $begingroup$
    @DaveL.Renfro Nice!
    $endgroup$
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 '18 at 18:28
















$begingroup$
Regarding how far such examples can be pushed that also satisfy an additional restriction (namely, being Lipschitz continuous), see my answer to Monotone Function, Derivative Limit Bounded, Differentiable - 2.
$endgroup$
– Dave L. Renfro
Nov 29 '18 at 15:09






$begingroup$
Regarding how far such examples can be pushed that also satisfy an additional restriction (namely, being Lipschitz continuous), see my answer to Monotone Function, Derivative Limit Bounded, Differentiable - 2.
$endgroup$
– Dave L. Renfro
Nov 29 '18 at 15:09














$begingroup$
@DaveL.Renfro Nice!
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
Nov 29 '18 at 18:28




$begingroup$
@DaveL.Renfro Nice!
$endgroup$
– Xander Henderson
Nov 29 '18 at 18:28


















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