Frattini subgroup of a finite group
$begingroup$
I have been looking for information about the Frattini subgroup of a finite group. Almost all the books dealing with this topic discuss this subgroup for $p$-groups.
I am actually willing to discuss the following questions:
Let $G$ be a finite group. Is the Frattini subgroup of $G$ abelian?
Why is the order of the Frattini factor divisible by each prime divisor of $|G|$?
group-theory reference-request finite-groups
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I have been looking for information about the Frattini subgroup of a finite group. Almost all the books dealing with this topic discuss this subgroup for $p$-groups.
I am actually willing to discuss the following questions:
Let $G$ be a finite group. Is the Frattini subgroup of $G$ abelian?
Why is the order of the Frattini factor divisible by each prime divisor of $|G|$?
group-theory reference-request finite-groups
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
No to the first question. Counterexample? Choose a finite non-abelian $;p$-group with non-abelian maximal proper subgroup. For the second question: for any such prime divisor there is a maximal subgroup divisible by that prime...
$endgroup$
– DonAntonio
Apr 23 '14 at 14:26
$begingroup$
and it is enough to find only one maximal subgroup with order divisible by the prime?
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:29
$begingroup$
for get that: I misread that last part since, obviously, if the Frattini subgroup is trivial then it cannot be divided any any prime...yet you're talking of the Frattini factor...do you mean the quotient $;G/Phi(G);$ ?
$endgroup$
– DonAntonio
Apr 23 '14 at 14:37
$begingroup$
do you recommend any reference?
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:44
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I have been looking for information about the Frattini subgroup of a finite group. Almost all the books dealing with this topic discuss this subgroup for $p$-groups.
I am actually willing to discuss the following questions:
Let $G$ be a finite group. Is the Frattini subgroup of $G$ abelian?
Why is the order of the Frattini factor divisible by each prime divisor of $|G|$?
group-theory reference-request finite-groups
$endgroup$
I have been looking for information about the Frattini subgroup of a finite group. Almost all the books dealing with this topic discuss this subgroup for $p$-groups.
I am actually willing to discuss the following questions:
Let $G$ be a finite group. Is the Frattini subgroup of $G$ abelian?
Why is the order of the Frattini factor divisible by each prime divisor of $|G|$?
group-theory reference-request finite-groups
group-theory reference-request finite-groups
edited Dec 4 '18 at 0:31
the_fox
2,89021537
2,89021537
asked Apr 23 '14 at 14:22
user145150user145150
454
454
$begingroup$
No to the first question. Counterexample? Choose a finite non-abelian $;p$-group with non-abelian maximal proper subgroup. For the second question: for any such prime divisor there is a maximal subgroup divisible by that prime...
$endgroup$
– DonAntonio
Apr 23 '14 at 14:26
$begingroup$
and it is enough to find only one maximal subgroup with order divisible by the prime?
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:29
$begingroup$
for get that: I misread that last part since, obviously, if the Frattini subgroup is trivial then it cannot be divided any any prime...yet you're talking of the Frattini factor...do you mean the quotient $;G/Phi(G);$ ?
$endgroup$
– DonAntonio
Apr 23 '14 at 14:37
$begingroup$
do you recommend any reference?
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:44
add a comment |
$begingroup$
No to the first question. Counterexample? Choose a finite non-abelian $;p$-group with non-abelian maximal proper subgroup. For the second question: for any such prime divisor there is a maximal subgroup divisible by that prime...
$endgroup$
– DonAntonio
Apr 23 '14 at 14:26
$begingroup$
and it is enough to find only one maximal subgroup with order divisible by the prime?
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:29
$begingroup$
for get that: I misread that last part since, obviously, if the Frattini subgroup is trivial then it cannot be divided any any prime...yet you're talking of the Frattini factor...do you mean the quotient $;G/Phi(G);$ ?
$endgroup$
– DonAntonio
Apr 23 '14 at 14:37
$begingroup$
do you recommend any reference?
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:44
$begingroup$
No to the first question. Counterexample? Choose a finite non-abelian $;p$-group with non-abelian maximal proper subgroup. For the second question: for any such prime divisor there is a maximal subgroup divisible by that prime...
$endgroup$
– DonAntonio
Apr 23 '14 at 14:26
$begingroup$
No to the first question. Counterexample? Choose a finite non-abelian $;p$-group with non-abelian maximal proper subgroup. For the second question: for any such prime divisor there is a maximal subgroup divisible by that prime...
$endgroup$
– DonAntonio
Apr 23 '14 at 14:26
$begingroup$
and it is enough to find only one maximal subgroup with order divisible by the prime?
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:29
$begingroup$
and it is enough to find only one maximal subgroup with order divisible by the prime?
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:29
$begingroup$
for get that: I misread that last part since, obviously, if the Frattini subgroup is trivial then it cannot be divided any any prime...yet you're talking of the Frattini factor...do you mean the quotient $;G/Phi(G);$ ?
$endgroup$
– DonAntonio
Apr 23 '14 at 14:37
$begingroup$
for get that: I misread that last part since, obviously, if the Frattini subgroup is trivial then it cannot be divided any any prime...yet you're talking of the Frattini factor...do you mean the quotient $;G/Phi(G);$ ?
$endgroup$
– DonAntonio
Apr 23 '14 at 14:37
$begingroup$
do you recommend any reference?
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:44
$begingroup$
do you recommend any reference?
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:44
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Here is a proof that, for a finite group $G$, $|G/Phi(G)|$ is divisible by all primes $p$ dividing $|G|$. It uses the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem. I don't know whether that can be avoided.
First note that each Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $Phi(G)$ is normal in $G$. (So, in particular, $Phi(G)$ is nilpotent.) To see that, we have $G = Phi(G)N_G(P)$ by the Frattini Argument, and then by the fact that $Phi(G)$ consists of the non-generators of $G$, we have $G = N_G(P)$.
Now if there is a prime $p$ dividing $|G|$ but not dividing $|G/Phi(G)|$, then $Phi(G)$ contains a Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $G$ and $P unlhd G$. So, by the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem, $P$ has a complement $H$ in $G$. Let $M$ be a maximal subgroup of $G$ containing $H$. Then $p$ divides $|G:M|$ and hence $p$ divides $|G/Phi(G)|$, contradiction.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks, I did not find any reference for the proof
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:54
add a comment |
$begingroup$
To find a finite group with non-abelian Frattini subgroup, you'll need a group with a non-abelian maximal subgroup, but that does not suffice. The dihedral group of order 16 has a maximal subgroup isomorphic to the dihedral group of order 8, but the Frattini subgroup of a non-cyclic group of order 16 has order at most 4, so is abelian (it is Klein 4 in this case).
The smallest examples have order 64. One particular example is given by a matrix group:$$G=leftlangle begin{bmatrix} 0 & 1 & 0 \ 1 & 2 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix},
begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 & 1 \ 0 & 1 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix} mod 4rightrangle leq operatorname{GL}(2,mathbb{Z}/4mathbb{Z})$$ which is a semi-direct product of $C_4$ acting on $C_4 times C_4$. Its Frattini subgroup is isomorphic to $C_2 times D_8$. The only other possibility for a non-abelian Frattini subgroup of a group of order 64 is $C_2 times Q_8$.
One reason books emphasize Frattini subgroups of $p$-groups is that they have a very nice definition there: $Phi(G) = G^p [G,G]$. Hence calculations and theorems are much easier. For solvable groups, there is still some research into embedding properties related to the Frattini subgroup, and for non-solvable groups, there are significant questions left open.
I gave an answer you might be interested in, describing the groups that can occur as Frattini subgroups. In particular, some non-abelian groups are on the list. :-)
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
so if I could construct the frattini subgroup for a finite group, would that be something?
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 15:51
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
2
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$begingroup$
Here is a proof that, for a finite group $G$, $|G/Phi(G)|$ is divisible by all primes $p$ dividing $|G|$. It uses the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem. I don't know whether that can be avoided.
First note that each Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $Phi(G)$ is normal in $G$. (So, in particular, $Phi(G)$ is nilpotent.) To see that, we have $G = Phi(G)N_G(P)$ by the Frattini Argument, and then by the fact that $Phi(G)$ consists of the non-generators of $G$, we have $G = N_G(P)$.
Now if there is a prime $p$ dividing $|G|$ but not dividing $|G/Phi(G)|$, then $Phi(G)$ contains a Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $G$ and $P unlhd G$. So, by the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem, $P$ has a complement $H$ in $G$. Let $M$ be a maximal subgroup of $G$ containing $H$. Then $p$ divides $|G:M|$ and hence $p$ divides $|G/Phi(G)|$, contradiction.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks, I did not find any reference for the proof
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:54
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Here is a proof that, for a finite group $G$, $|G/Phi(G)|$ is divisible by all primes $p$ dividing $|G|$. It uses the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem. I don't know whether that can be avoided.
First note that each Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $Phi(G)$ is normal in $G$. (So, in particular, $Phi(G)$ is nilpotent.) To see that, we have $G = Phi(G)N_G(P)$ by the Frattini Argument, and then by the fact that $Phi(G)$ consists of the non-generators of $G$, we have $G = N_G(P)$.
Now if there is a prime $p$ dividing $|G|$ but not dividing $|G/Phi(G)|$, then $Phi(G)$ contains a Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $G$ and $P unlhd G$. So, by the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem, $P$ has a complement $H$ in $G$. Let $M$ be a maximal subgroup of $G$ containing $H$. Then $p$ divides $|G:M|$ and hence $p$ divides $|G/Phi(G)|$, contradiction.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks, I did not find any reference for the proof
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:54
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Here is a proof that, for a finite group $G$, $|G/Phi(G)|$ is divisible by all primes $p$ dividing $|G|$. It uses the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem. I don't know whether that can be avoided.
First note that each Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $Phi(G)$ is normal in $G$. (So, in particular, $Phi(G)$ is nilpotent.) To see that, we have $G = Phi(G)N_G(P)$ by the Frattini Argument, and then by the fact that $Phi(G)$ consists of the non-generators of $G$, we have $G = N_G(P)$.
Now if there is a prime $p$ dividing $|G|$ but not dividing $|G/Phi(G)|$, then $Phi(G)$ contains a Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $G$ and $P unlhd G$. So, by the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem, $P$ has a complement $H$ in $G$. Let $M$ be a maximal subgroup of $G$ containing $H$. Then $p$ divides $|G:M|$ and hence $p$ divides $|G/Phi(G)|$, contradiction.
$endgroup$
Here is a proof that, for a finite group $G$, $|G/Phi(G)|$ is divisible by all primes $p$ dividing $|G|$. It uses the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem. I don't know whether that can be avoided.
First note that each Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $Phi(G)$ is normal in $G$. (So, in particular, $Phi(G)$ is nilpotent.) To see that, we have $G = Phi(G)N_G(P)$ by the Frattini Argument, and then by the fact that $Phi(G)$ consists of the non-generators of $G$, we have $G = N_G(P)$.
Now if there is a prime $p$ dividing $|G|$ but not dividing $|G/Phi(G)|$, then $Phi(G)$ contains a Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $G$ and $P unlhd G$. So, by the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem, $P$ has a complement $H$ in $G$. Let $M$ be a maximal subgroup of $G$ containing $H$. Then $p$ divides $|G:M|$ and hence $p$ divides $|G/Phi(G)|$, contradiction.
answered Apr 23 '14 at 14:50
Derek HoltDerek Holt
53.8k53571
53.8k53571
$begingroup$
Thanks, I did not find any reference for the proof
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:54
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Thanks, I did not find any reference for the proof
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:54
$begingroup$
Thanks, I did not find any reference for the proof
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:54
$begingroup$
Thanks, I did not find any reference for the proof
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:54
add a comment |
$begingroup$
To find a finite group with non-abelian Frattini subgroup, you'll need a group with a non-abelian maximal subgroup, but that does not suffice. The dihedral group of order 16 has a maximal subgroup isomorphic to the dihedral group of order 8, but the Frattini subgroup of a non-cyclic group of order 16 has order at most 4, so is abelian (it is Klein 4 in this case).
The smallest examples have order 64. One particular example is given by a matrix group:$$G=leftlangle begin{bmatrix} 0 & 1 & 0 \ 1 & 2 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix},
begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 & 1 \ 0 & 1 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix} mod 4rightrangle leq operatorname{GL}(2,mathbb{Z}/4mathbb{Z})$$ which is a semi-direct product of $C_4$ acting on $C_4 times C_4$. Its Frattini subgroup is isomorphic to $C_2 times D_8$. The only other possibility for a non-abelian Frattini subgroup of a group of order 64 is $C_2 times Q_8$.
One reason books emphasize Frattini subgroups of $p$-groups is that they have a very nice definition there: $Phi(G) = G^p [G,G]$. Hence calculations and theorems are much easier. For solvable groups, there is still some research into embedding properties related to the Frattini subgroup, and for non-solvable groups, there are significant questions left open.
I gave an answer you might be interested in, describing the groups that can occur as Frattini subgroups. In particular, some non-abelian groups are on the list. :-)
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
so if I could construct the frattini subgroup for a finite group, would that be something?
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 15:51
add a comment |
$begingroup$
To find a finite group with non-abelian Frattini subgroup, you'll need a group with a non-abelian maximal subgroup, but that does not suffice. The dihedral group of order 16 has a maximal subgroup isomorphic to the dihedral group of order 8, but the Frattini subgroup of a non-cyclic group of order 16 has order at most 4, so is abelian (it is Klein 4 in this case).
The smallest examples have order 64. One particular example is given by a matrix group:$$G=leftlangle begin{bmatrix} 0 & 1 & 0 \ 1 & 2 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix},
begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 & 1 \ 0 & 1 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix} mod 4rightrangle leq operatorname{GL}(2,mathbb{Z}/4mathbb{Z})$$ which is a semi-direct product of $C_4$ acting on $C_4 times C_4$. Its Frattini subgroup is isomorphic to $C_2 times D_8$. The only other possibility for a non-abelian Frattini subgroup of a group of order 64 is $C_2 times Q_8$.
One reason books emphasize Frattini subgroups of $p$-groups is that they have a very nice definition there: $Phi(G) = G^p [G,G]$. Hence calculations and theorems are much easier. For solvable groups, there is still some research into embedding properties related to the Frattini subgroup, and for non-solvable groups, there are significant questions left open.
I gave an answer you might be interested in, describing the groups that can occur as Frattini subgroups. In particular, some non-abelian groups are on the list. :-)
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
so if I could construct the frattini subgroup for a finite group, would that be something?
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 15:51
add a comment |
$begingroup$
To find a finite group with non-abelian Frattini subgroup, you'll need a group with a non-abelian maximal subgroup, but that does not suffice. The dihedral group of order 16 has a maximal subgroup isomorphic to the dihedral group of order 8, but the Frattini subgroup of a non-cyclic group of order 16 has order at most 4, so is abelian (it is Klein 4 in this case).
The smallest examples have order 64. One particular example is given by a matrix group:$$G=leftlangle begin{bmatrix} 0 & 1 & 0 \ 1 & 2 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix},
begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 & 1 \ 0 & 1 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix} mod 4rightrangle leq operatorname{GL}(2,mathbb{Z}/4mathbb{Z})$$ which is a semi-direct product of $C_4$ acting on $C_4 times C_4$. Its Frattini subgroup is isomorphic to $C_2 times D_8$. The only other possibility for a non-abelian Frattini subgroup of a group of order 64 is $C_2 times Q_8$.
One reason books emphasize Frattini subgroups of $p$-groups is that they have a very nice definition there: $Phi(G) = G^p [G,G]$. Hence calculations and theorems are much easier. For solvable groups, there is still some research into embedding properties related to the Frattini subgroup, and for non-solvable groups, there are significant questions left open.
I gave an answer you might be interested in, describing the groups that can occur as Frattini subgroups. In particular, some non-abelian groups are on the list. :-)
$endgroup$
To find a finite group with non-abelian Frattini subgroup, you'll need a group with a non-abelian maximal subgroup, but that does not suffice. The dihedral group of order 16 has a maximal subgroup isomorphic to the dihedral group of order 8, but the Frattini subgroup of a non-cyclic group of order 16 has order at most 4, so is abelian (it is Klein 4 in this case).
The smallest examples have order 64. One particular example is given by a matrix group:$$G=leftlangle begin{bmatrix} 0 & 1 & 0 \ 1 & 2 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix},
begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 & 1 \ 0 & 1 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix} mod 4rightrangle leq operatorname{GL}(2,mathbb{Z}/4mathbb{Z})$$ which is a semi-direct product of $C_4$ acting on $C_4 times C_4$. Its Frattini subgroup is isomorphic to $C_2 times D_8$. The only other possibility for a non-abelian Frattini subgroup of a group of order 64 is $C_2 times Q_8$.
One reason books emphasize Frattini subgroups of $p$-groups is that they have a very nice definition there: $Phi(G) = G^p [G,G]$. Hence calculations and theorems are much easier. For solvable groups, there is still some research into embedding properties related to the Frattini subgroup, and for non-solvable groups, there are significant questions left open.
I gave an answer you might be interested in, describing the groups that can occur as Frattini subgroups. In particular, some non-abelian groups are on the list. :-)
edited Dec 4 '18 at 0:46
the_fox
2,89021537
2,89021537
answered Apr 23 '14 at 15:38
Jack SchmidtJack Schmidt
43.2k572152
43.2k572152
$begingroup$
so if I could construct the frattini subgroup for a finite group, would that be something?
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 15:51
add a comment |
$begingroup$
so if I could construct the frattini subgroup for a finite group, would that be something?
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 15:51
$begingroup$
so if I could construct the frattini subgroup for a finite group, would that be something?
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 15:51
$begingroup$
so if I could construct the frattini subgroup for a finite group, would that be something?
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 15:51
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
No to the first question. Counterexample? Choose a finite non-abelian $;p$-group with non-abelian maximal proper subgroup. For the second question: for any such prime divisor there is a maximal subgroup divisible by that prime...
$endgroup$
– DonAntonio
Apr 23 '14 at 14:26
$begingroup$
and it is enough to find only one maximal subgroup with order divisible by the prime?
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:29
$begingroup$
for get that: I misread that last part since, obviously, if the Frattini subgroup is trivial then it cannot be divided any any prime...yet you're talking of the Frattini factor...do you mean the quotient $;G/Phi(G);$ ?
$endgroup$
– DonAntonio
Apr 23 '14 at 14:37
$begingroup$
do you recommend any reference?
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:44