Calculation of probability with arithmetic mean of random variables












1














There are 4 people, each of whom has one deck of cards with 500 cards that are numbered from 1 to 500 with no duplicates.



Each person draws a card from his deck and I would like to calculate the probability of the event that "the arithmetic mean of the number on the 4 cards is 405".



How to make that?





Some explanation is welcome.










share|cite|improve this question
























  • @DavidK, each deck has cards that are numbered 1,2,3,...,500 with no duplicates.
    – Backo
    Nov 20 at 1:02










  • @NoChance, please provide me with some explanation.
    – Backo
    Nov 20 at 1:03










  • @DavidK, "the arithmetic mean of the sum" is this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_mean That mean for the event 400,405,405,410 is 405.
    – Backo
    Nov 20 at 1:40












  • I guess my answer is not what you want due to the requirement of Arithmetic Mean. This is a very hard question!
    – NoChance
    Nov 20 at 1:49












  • @NoChance, see the answer below. ;)
    – Backo
    Nov 20 at 2:00
















1














There are 4 people, each of whom has one deck of cards with 500 cards that are numbered from 1 to 500 with no duplicates.



Each person draws a card from his deck and I would like to calculate the probability of the event that "the arithmetic mean of the number on the 4 cards is 405".



How to make that?





Some explanation is welcome.










share|cite|improve this question
























  • @DavidK, each deck has cards that are numbered 1,2,3,...,500 with no duplicates.
    – Backo
    Nov 20 at 1:02










  • @NoChance, please provide me with some explanation.
    – Backo
    Nov 20 at 1:03










  • @DavidK, "the arithmetic mean of the sum" is this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_mean That mean for the event 400,405,405,410 is 405.
    – Backo
    Nov 20 at 1:40












  • I guess my answer is not what you want due to the requirement of Arithmetic Mean. This is a very hard question!
    – NoChance
    Nov 20 at 1:49












  • @NoChance, see the answer below. ;)
    – Backo
    Nov 20 at 2:00














1












1








1


2





There are 4 people, each of whom has one deck of cards with 500 cards that are numbered from 1 to 500 with no duplicates.



Each person draws a card from his deck and I would like to calculate the probability of the event that "the arithmetic mean of the number on the 4 cards is 405".



How to make that?





Some explanation is welcome.










share|cite|improve this question















There are 4 people, each of whom has one deck of cards with 500 cards that are numbered from 1 to 500 with no duplicates.



Each person draws a card from his deck and I would like to calculate the probability of the event that "the arithmetic mean of the number on the 4 cards is 405".



How to make that?





Some explanation is welcome.







probability statistics multivariable-calculus random-variables means






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share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Nov 20 at 3:25

























asked Nov 19 at 23:18









Backo

1184




1184












  • @DavidK, each deck has cards that are numbered 1,2,3,...,500 with no duplicates.
    – Backo
    Nov 20 at 1:02










  • @NoChance, please provide me with some explanation.
    – Backo
    Nov 20 at 1:03










  • @DavidK, "the arithmetic mean of the sum" is this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_mean That mean for the event 400,405,405,410 is 405.
    – Backo
    Nov 20 at 1:40












  • I guess my answer is not what you want due to the requirement of Arithmetic Mean. This is a very hard question!
    – NoChance
    Nov 20 at 1:49












  • @NoChance, see the answer below. ;)
    – Backo
    Nov 20 at 2:00


















  • @DavidK, each deck has cards that are numbered 1,2,3,...,500 with no duplicates.
    – Backo
    Nov 20 at 1:02










  • @NoChance, please provide me with some explanation.
    – Backo
    Nov 20 at 1:03










  • @DavidK, "the arithmetic mean of the sum" is this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_mean That mean for the event 400,405,405,410 is 405.
    – Backo
    Nov 20 at 1:40












  • I guess my answer is not what you want due to the requirement of Arithmetic Mean. This is a very hard question!
    – NoChance
    Nov 20 at 1:49












  • @NoChance, see the answer below. ;)
    – Backo
    Nov 20 at 2:00
















@DavidK, each deck has cards that are numbered 1,2,3,...,500 with no duplicates.
– Backo
Nov 20 at 1:02




@DavidK, each deck has cards that are numbered 1,2,3,...,500 with no duplicates.
– Backo
Nov 20 at 1:02












@NoChance, please provide me with some explanation.
– Backo
Nov 20 at 1:03




@NoChance, please provide me with some explanation.
– Backo
Nov 20 at 1:03












@DavidK, "the arithmetic mean of the sum" is this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_mean That mean for the event 400,405,405,410 is 405.
– Backo
Nov 20 at 1:40






@DavidK, "the arithmetic mean of the sum" is this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_mean That mean for the event 400,405,405,410 is 405.
– Backo
Nov 20 at 1:40














I guess my answer is not what you want due to the requirement of Arithmetic Mean. This is a very hard question!
– NoChance
Nov 20 at 1:49






I guess my answer is not what you want due to the requirement of Arithmetic Mean. This is a very hard question!
– NoChance
Nov 20 at 1:49














@NoChance, see the answer below. ;)
– Backo
Nov 20 at 2:00




@NoChance, see the answer below. ;)
– Backo
Nov 20 at 2:00










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















0














This is equivalent to asking if the sum is 1620. The individual variables are i.i.d. discrete uniform, so there is probably some well-developed theory on this. However, we can do it elementary style ; )



To get a total of 1620, the first player must have at least a 120. So we have $sum_{i=120}^{500}$ to consider. Now the second player must have at least $620-i$, so we take $sum_{j=620-i}^{500}$. The third player must have at least $1120-i-j$, so we take $sum_{k=1120-i-j}^{500}$. The fourth player must now draw exactly $500-i-j-k$. Each draw has a probability of $1/500$. So we obtain
$$P(X=1620)=sum_{i=120}^{500}frac{1}{500}sum_{j=620-i}^{500}frac{1}{500}sum_{k=1120-i-j}^{500}frac{1}{500}cdotfrac{1}{500}$$
$$=frac{1}{(500)^4}sum_{i=120}^{500}sum_{j=620-i}^{500}sum_{k=1120-i-j}^{500}1$$
$$=frac{9,290,431}{(500)^4}approx 0.000148646896$$






share|cite|improve this answer























  • Thanks for the answer. When you say "This is equivalent to asking if the sum is 1620", where did the 1620 number come from?
    – Backo
    Nov 20 at 1:38






  • 1




    The arithmetic mean is $frac{1}{4}(i+j+k+ell)=405$. But this means $i+j+k+ell=1620$.
    – Ben W
    Nov 20 at 1:39










  • Please, see also my follow up question at math.stackexchange.com/questions/3005846/…
    – Backo
    Nov 20 at 2:19





















1














You have a correct answer already, but I would like to add that there is a standard combinatorics method for getting this answer.



You have four numbers $a, b, c, d$ which are the numbers drawn by
(respectively) the first, second, third, and fourth player.



Each of those four numbers is a positive integer and in order for the arithmetic mean to be $405,$ we are looking for an event where the sum is
$$ a + b + c + d = 1620. $$



There is a well-known method for finding the number of ways to reach any given sum with four positive numbers, but in this case the usual method would count sums such as $1 + 1 + 1 + 1617,$ which you have ruled out by stating that the highest number on any card is $500.$



There is, however, another almost-as-well-known way of dealing with the
maximum of $500$ per card, and that is to "count from the top".



Let's look at the numbers
$a' = 500 - a,$ $b' = 500 - b,$ $c' = 500 - c,$ and $d' = 500 - d.$
The four drawn cards give us the four numbers $a,b,c,d$ but also give us the "complementary" number $a',b',c',d'.$



Notice that if (and only if) $ a + b + c + d = 1620,$ then
begin{align}
a' + b' + c' + d' &= (500 - a) + (500 - b) + (500 - c) + (500 - c) \
&= 2000 - (a + b + c + d)\
&= 2000 - 1620\
&= 380.
end{align}

So rather than look for four positive integers that add to $1620$ with the restriction that none can be greater than $500,$
we can look for four non-negative integers (not necessarily positive, because
$a' = 0$ when $a = 500$) whose sum is $380.$
The integers each have to be less than $500,$ but in fact none can be greater than $380$ anyway so the "less than $500$" restriction actually has no effect and can be ignored.



This gives us a standard problem with a standard solution.
The solution (explained in the answers to How to use stars and bars?) is that the number of ways to add four non-negative integers to a sum of $380$ is
$$
binom{380 + 4 - 1}{4 - 1} = binom{383}{3} = frac{383cdot382cdot381}{6}
= 9290431.
$$



So that's the number of ways the four cards can add up to $1620,$
the same number obtained by nested sums in Ben W's answer,
confirming that the sums were correctly computed.






share|cite|improve this answer





















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    2 Answers
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    active

    oldest

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    2 Answers
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    active

    oldest

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    active

    oldest

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    active

    oldest

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    0














    This is equivalent to asking if the sum is 1620. The individual variables are i.i.d. discrete uniform, so there is probably some well-developed theory on this. However, we can do it elementary style ; )



    To get a total of 1620, the first player must have at least a 120. So we have $sum_{i=120}^{500}$ to consider. Now the second player must have at least $620-i$, so we take $sum_{j=620-i}^{500}$. The third player must have at least $1120-i-j$, so we take $sum_{k=1120-i-j}^{500}$. The fourth player must now draw exactly $500-i-j-k$. Each draw has a probability of $1/500$. So we obtain
    $$P(X=1620)=sum_{i=120}^{500}frac{1}{500}sum_{j=620-i}^{500}frac{1}{500}sum_{k=1120-i-j}^{500}frac{1}{500}cdotfrac{1}{500}$$
    $$=frac{1}{(500)^4}sum_{i=120}^{500}sum_{j=620-i}^{500}sum_{k=1120-i-j}^{500}1$$
    $$=frac{9,290,431}{(500)^4}approx 0.000148646896$$






    share|cite|improve this answer























    • Thanks for the answer. When you say "This is equivalent to asking if the sum is 1620", where did the 1620 number come from?
      – Backo
      Nov 20 at 1:38






    • 1




      The arithmetic mean is $frac{1}{4}(i+j+k+ell)=405$. But this means $i+j+k+ell=1620$.
      – Ben W
      Nov 20 at 1:39










    • Please, see also my follow up question at math.stackexchange.com/questions/3005846/…
      – Backo
      Nov 20 at 2:19


















    0














    This is equivalent to asking if the sum is 1620. The individual variables are i.i.d. discrete uniform, so there is probably some well-developed theory on this. However, we can do it elementary style ; )



    To get a total of 1620, the first player must have at least a 120. So we have $sum_{i=120}^{500}$ to consider. Now the second player must have at least $620-i$, so we take $sum_{j=620-i}^{500}$. The third player must have at least $1120-i-j$, so we take $sum_{k=1120-i-j}^{500}$. The fourth player must now draw exactly $500-i-j-k$. Each draw has a probability of $1/500$. So we obtain
    $$P(X=1620)=sum_{i=120}^{500}frac{1}{500}sum_{j=620-i}^{500}frac{1}{500}sum_{k=1120-i-j}^{500}frac{1}{500}cdotfrac{1}{500}$$
    $$=frac{1}{(500)^4}sum_{i=120}^{500}sum_{j=620-i}^{500}sum_{k=1120-i-j}^{500}1$$
    $$=frac{9,290,431}{(500)^4}approx 0.000148646896$$






    share|cite|improve this answer























    • Thanks for the answer. When you say "This is equivalent to asking if the sum is 1620", where did the 1620 number come from?
      – Backo
      Nov 20 at 1:38






    • 1




      The arithmetic mean is $frac{1}{4}(i+j+k+ell)=405$. But this means $i+j+k+ell=1620$.
      – Ben W
      Nov 20 at 1:39










    • Please, see also my follow up question at math.stackexchange.com/questions/3005846/…
      – Backo
      Nov 20 at 2:19
















    0












    0








    0






    This is equivalent to asking if the sum is 1620. The individual variables are i.i.d. discrete uniform, so there is probably some well-developed theory on this. However, we can do it elementary style ; )



    To get a total of 1620, the first player must have at least a 120. So we have $sum_{i=120}^{500}$ to consider. Now the second player must have at least $620-i$, so we take $sum_{j=620-i}^{500}$. The third player must have at least $1120-i-j$, so we take $sum_{k=1120-i-j}^{500}$. The fourth player must now draw exactly $500-i-j-k$. Each draw has a probability of $1/500$. So we obtain
    $$P(X=1620)=sum_{i=120}^{500}frac{1}{500}sum_{j=620-i}^{500}frac{1}{500}sum_{k=1120-i-j}^{500}frac{1}{500}cdotfrac{1}{500}$$
    $$=frac{1}{(500)^4}sum_{i=120}^{500}sum_{j=620-i}^{500}sum_{k=1120-i-j}^{500}1$$
    $$=frac{9,290,431}{(500)^4}approx 0.000148646896$$






    share|cite|improve this answer














    This is equivalent to asking if the sum is 1620. The individual variables are i.i.d. discrete uniform, so there is probably some well-developed theory on this. However, we can do it elementary style ; )



    To get a total of 1620, the first player must have at least a 120. So we have $sum_{i=120}^{500}$ to consider. Now the second player must have at least $620-i$, so we take $sum_{j=620-i}^{500}$. The third player must have at least $1120-i-j$, so we take $sum_{k=1120-i-j}^{500}$. The fourth player must now draw exactly $500-i-j-k$. Each draw has a probability of $1/500$. So we obtain
    $$P(X=1620)=sum_{i=120}^{500}frac{1}{500}sum_{j=620-i}^{500}frac{1}{500}sum_{k=1120-i-j}^{500}frac{1}{500}cdotfrac{1}{500}$$
    $$=frac{1}{(500)^4}sum_{i=120}^{500}sum_{j=620-i}^{500}sum_{k=1120-i-j}^{500}1$$
    $$=frac{9,290,431}{(500)^4}approx 0.000148646896$$







    share|cite|improve this answer














    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer








    edited Nov 20 at 1:38

























    answered Nov 20 at 1:28









    Ben W

    1,436513




    1,436513












    • Thanks for the answer. When you say "This is equivalent to asking if the sum is 1620", where did the 1620 number come from?
      – Backo
      Nov 20 at 1:38






    • 1




      The arithmetic mean is $frac{1}{4}(i+j+k+ell)=405$. But this means $i+j+k+ell=1620$.
      – Ben W
      Nov 20 at 1:39










    • Please, see also my follow up question at math.stackexchange.com/questions/3005846/…
      – Backo
      Nov 20 at 2:19




















    • Thanks for the answer. When you say "This is equivalent to asking if the sum is 1620", where did the 1620 number come from?
      – Backo
      Nov 20 at 1:38






    • 1




      The arithmetic mean is $frac{1}{4}(i+j+k+ell)=405$. But this means $i+j+k+ell=1620$.
      – Ben W
      Nov 20 at 1:39










    • Please, see also my follow up question at math.stackexchange.com/questions/3005846/…
      – Backo
      Nov 20 at 2:19


















    Thanks for the answer. When you say "This is equivalent to asking if the sum is 1620", where did the 1620 number come from?
    – Backo
    Nov 20 at 1:38




    Thanks for the answer. When you say "This is equivalent to asking if the sum is 1620", where did the 1620 number come from?
    – Backo
    Nov 20 at 1:38




    1




    1




    The arithmetic mean is $frac{1}{4}(i+j+k+ell)=405$. But this means $i+j+k+ell=1620$.
    – Ben W
    Nov 20 at 1:39




    The arithmetic mean is $frac{1}{4}(i+j+k+ell)=405$. But this means $i+j+k+ell=1620$.
    – Ben W
    Nov 20 at 1:39












    Please, see also my follow up question at math.stackexchange.com/questions/3005846/…
    – Backo
    Nov 20 at 2:19






    Please, see also my follow up question at math.stackexchange.com/questions/3005846/…
    – Backo
    Nov 20 at 2:19













    1














    You have a correct answer already, but I would like to add that there is a standard combinatorics method for getting this answer.



    You have four numbers $a, b, c, d$ which are the numbers drawn by
    (respectively) the first, second, third, and fourth player.



    Each of those four numbers is a positive integer and in order for the arithmetic mean to be $405,$ we are looking for an event where the sum is
    $$ a + b + c + d = 1620. $$



    There is a well-known method for finding the number of ways to reach any given sum with four positive numbers, but in this case the usual method would count sums such as $1 + 1 + 1 + 1617,$ which you have ruled out by stating that the highest number on any card is $500.$



    There is, however, another almost-as-well-known way of dealing with the
    maximum of $500$ per card, and that is to "count from the top".



    Let's look at the numbers
    $a' = 500 - a,$ $b' = 500 - b,$ $c' = 500 - c,$ and $d' = 500 - d.$
    The four drawn cards give us the four numbers $a,b,c,d$ but also give us the "complementary" number $a',b',c',d'.$



    Notice that if (and only if) $ a + b + c + d = 1620,$ then
    begin{align}
    a' + b' + c' + d' &= (500 - a) + (500 - b) + (500 - c) + (500 - c) \
    &= 2000 - (a + b + c + d)\
    &= 2000 - 1620\
    &= 380.
    end{align}

    So rather than look for four positive integers that add to $1620$ with the restriction that none can be greater than $500,$
    we can look for four non-negative integers (not necessarily positive, because
    $a' = 0$ when $a = 500$) whose sum is $380.$
    The integers each have to be less than $500,$ but in fact none can be greater than $380$ anyway so the "less than $500$" restriction actually has no effect and can be ignored.



    This gives us a standard problem with a standard solution.
    The solution (explained in the answers to How to use stars and bars?) is that the number of ways to add four non-negative integers to a sum of $380$ is
    $$
    binom{380 + 4 - 1}{4 - 1} = binom{383}{3} = frac{383cdot382cdot381}{6}
    = 9290431.
    $$



    So that's the number of ways the four cards can add up to $1620,$
    the same number obtained by nested sums in Ben W's answer,
    confirming that the sums were correctly computed.






    share|cite|improve this answer


























      1














      You have a correct answer already, but I would like to add that there is a standard combinatorics method for getting this answer.



      You have four numbers $a, b, c, d$ which are the numbers drawn by
      (respectively) the first, second, third, and fourth player.



      Each of those four numbers is a positive integer and in order for the arithmetic mean to be $405,$ we are looking for an event where the sum is
      $$ a + b + c + d = 1620. $$



      There is a well-known method for finding the number of ways to reach any given sum with four positive numbers, but in this case the usual method would count sums such as $1 + 1 + 1 + 1617,$ which you have ruled out by stating that the highest number on any card is $500.$



      There is, however, another almost-as-well-known way of dealing with the
      maximum of $500$ per card, and that is to "count from the top".



      Let's look at the numbers
      $a' = 500 - a,$ $b' = 500 - b,$ $c' = 500 - c,$ and $d' = 500 - d.$
      The four drawn cards give us the four numbers $a,b,c,d$ but also give us the "complementary" number $a',b',c',d'.$



      Notice that if (and only if) $ a + b + c + d = 1620,$ then
      begin{align}
      a' + b' + c' + d' &= (500 - a) + (500 - b) + (500 - c) + (500 - c) \
      &= 2000 - (a + b + c + d)\
      &= 2000 - 1620\
      &= 380.
      end{align}

      So rather than look for four positive integers that add to $1620$ with the restriction that none can be greater than $500,$
      we can look for four non-negative integers (not necessarily positive, because
      $a' = 0$ when $a = 500$) whose sum is $380.$
      The integers each have to be less than $500,$ but in fact none can be greater than $380$ anyway so the "less than $500$" restriction actually has no effect and can be ignored.



      This gives us a standard problem with a standard solution.
      The solution (explained in the answers to How to use stars and bars?) is that the number of ways to add four non-negative integers to a sum of $380$ is
      $$
      binom{380 + 4 - 1}{4 - 1} = binom{383}{3} = frac{383cdot382cdot381}{6}
      = 9290431.
      $$



      So that's the number of ways the four cards can add up to $1620,$
      the same number obtained by nested sums in Ben W's answer,
      confirming that the sums were correctly computed.






      share|cite|improve this answer
























        1












        1








        1






        You have a correct answer already, but I would like to add that there is a standard combinatorics method for getting this answer.



        You have four numbers $a, b, c, d$ which are the numbers drawn by
        (respectively) the first, second, third, and fourth player.



        Each of those four numbers is a positive integer and in order for the arithmetic mean to be $405,$ we are looking for an event where the sum is
        $$ a + b + c + d = 1620. $$



        There is a well-known method for finding the number of ways to reach any given sum with four positive numbers, but in this case the usual method would count sums such as $1 + 1 + 1 + 1617,$ which you have ruled out by stating that the highest number on any card is $500.$



        There is, however, another almost-as-well-known way of dealing with the
        maximum of $500$ per card, and that is to "count from the top".



        Let's look at the numbers
        $a' = 500 - a,$ $b' = 500 - b,$ $c' = 500 - c,$ and $d' = 500 - d.$
        The four drawn cards give us the four numbers $a,b,c,d$ but also give us the "complementary" number $a',b',c',d'.$



        Notice that if (and only if) $ a + b + c + d = 1620,$ then
        begin{align}
        a' + b' + c' + d' &= (500 - a) + (500 - b) + (500 - c) + (500 - c) \
        &= 2000 - (a + b + c + d)\
        &= 2000 - 1620\
        &= 380.
        end{align}

        So rather than look for four positive integers that add to $1620$ with the restriction that none can be greater than $500,$
        we can look for four non-negative integers (not necessarily positive, because
        $a' = 0$ when $a = 500$) whose sum is $380.$
        The integers each have to be less than $500,$ but in fact none can be greater than $380$ anyway so the "less than $500$" restriction actually has no effect and can be ignored.



        This gives us a standard problem with a standard solution.
        The solution (explained in the answers to How to use stars and bars?) is that the number of ways to add four non-negative integers to a sum of $380$ is
        $$
        binom{380 + 4 - 1}{4 - 1} = binom{383}{3} = frac{383cdot382cdot381}{6}
        = 9290431.
        $$



        So that's the number of ways the four cards can add up to $1620,$
        the same number obtained by nested sums in Ben W's answer,
        confirming that the sums were correctly computed.






        share|cite|improve this answer












        You have a correct answer already, but I would like to add that there is a standard combinatorics method for getting this answer.



        You have four numbers $a, b, c, d$ which are the numbers drawn by
        (respectively) the first, second, third, and fourth player.



        Each of those four numbers is a positive integer and in order for the arithmetic mean to be $405,$ we are looking for an event where the sum is
        $$ a + b + c + d = 1620. $$



        There is a well-known method for finding the number of ways to reach any given sum with four positive numbers, but in this case the usual method would count sums such as $1 + 1 + 1 + 1617,$ which you have ruled out by stating that the highest number on any card is $500.$



        There is, however, another almost-as-well-known way of dealing with the
        maximum of $500$ per card, and that is to "count from the top".



        Let's look at the numbers
        $a' = 500 - a,$ $b' = 500 - b,$ $c' = 500 - c,$ and $d' = 500 - d.$
        The four drawn cards give us the four numbers $a,b,c,d$ but also give us the "complementary" number $a',b',c',d'.$



        Notice that if (and only if) $ a + b + c + d = 1620,$ then
        begin{align}
        a' + b' + c' + d' &= (500 - a) + (500 - b) + (500 - c) + (500 - c) \
        &= 2000 - (a + b + c + d)\
        &= 2000 - 1620\
        &= 380.
        end{align}

        So rather than look for four positive integers that add to $1620$ with the restriction that none can be greater than $500,$
        we can look for four non-negative integers (not necessarily positive, because
        $a' = 0$ when $a = 500$) whose sum is $380.$
        The integers each have to be less than $500,$ but in fact none can be greater than $380$ anyway so the "less than $500$" restriction actually has no effect and can be ignored.



        This gives us a standard problem with a standard solution.
        The solution (explained in the answers to How to use stars and bars?) is that the number of ways to add four non-negative integers to a sum of $380$ is
        $$
        binom{380 + 4 - 1}{4 - 1} = binom{383}{3} = frac{383cdot382cdot381}{6}
        = 9290431.
        $$



        So that's the number of ways the four cards can add up to $1620,$
        the same number obtained by nested sums in Ben W's answer,
        confirming that the sums were correctly computed.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered Nov 20 at 2:56









        David K

        52.5k340115




        52.5k340115






























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