Functions on a manifold











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I am learning about diff geometry and I have a question about ways of defining a function on a manifold. So if we think about manifolds in general we can define a chart on it. Then, through composition of a function and a chart we can analyze this function. My question is this. How can we define a function in the first place since it is on points P which need not be numbers. Dont we need to define the function on a chart in order for it to be defined on a manifold? And dont we then need to define a manifold through charts also? But in order for it to be defined properly we have to look for chart independent ptoperties which are read off the charts... I am confused.










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  • What is a definition of function?
    – Anubhav Mukherjee
    Nov 19 at 18:41










  • @Anubhav Mukherjee Map from manifold to R.
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 19:11















up vote
0
down vote

favorite












I am learning about diff geometry and I have a question about ways of defining a function on a manifold. So if we think about manifolds in general we can define a chart on it. Then, through composition of a function and a chart we can analyze this function. My question is this. How can we define a function in the first place since it is on points P which need not be numbers. Dont we need to define the function on a chart in order for it to be defined on a manifold? And dont we then need to define a manifold through charts also? But in order for it to be defined properly we have to look for chart independent ptoperties which are read off the charts... I am confused.










share|cite|improve this question






















  • What is a definition of function?
    – Anubhav Mukherjee
    Nov 19 at 18:41










  • @Anubhav Mukherjee Map from manifold to R.
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 19:11













up vote
0
down vote

favorite









up vote
0
down vote

favorite











I am learning about diff geometry and I have a question about ways of defining a function on a manifold. So if we think about manifolds in general we can define a chart on it. Then, through composition of a function and a chart we can analyze this function. My question is this. How can we define a function in the first place since it is on points P which need not be numbers. Dont we need to define the function on a chart in order for it to be defined on a manifold? And dont we then need to define a manifold through charts also? But in order for it to be defined properly we have to look for chart independent ptoperties which are read off the charts... I am confused.










share|cite|improve this question













I am learning about diff geometry and I have a question about ways of defining a function on a manifold. So if we think about manifolds in general we can define a chart on it. Then, through composition of a function and a chart we can analyze this function. My question is this. How can we define a function in the first place since it is on points P which need not be numbers. Dont we need to define the function on a chart in order for it to be defined on a manifold? And dont we then need to define a manifold through charts also? But in order for it to be defined properly we have to look for chart independent ptoperties which are read off the charts... I am confused.







differential-geometry manifolds






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asked Nov 19 at 18:12









Žarko Tomičić

1012




1012












  • What is a definition of function?
    – Anubhav Mukherjee
    Nov 19 at 18:41










  • @Anubhav Mukherjee Map from manifold to R.
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 19:11


















  • What is a definition of function?
    – Anubhav Mukherjee
    Nov 19 at 18:41










  • @Anubhav Mukherjee Map from manifold to R.
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 19:11
















What is a definition of function?
– Anubhav Mukherjee
Nov 19 at 18:41




What is a definition of function?
– Anubhav Mukherjee
Nov 19 at 18:41












@Anubhav Mukherjee Map from manifold to R.
– Žarko Tomičić
Nov 19 at 19:11




@Anubhav Mukherjee Map from manifold to R.
– Žarko Tomičić
Nov 19 at 19:11










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
2
down vote













I like your question, since I believe it is connected to one of the core topics of differential geometry.
Being not an expert, I can only give you my humble opinion on it, which is better expressed by a few questions, rather than long answers...



Abstract vs. concrete functions...



For sets $X, Y$, a function $f: X to Y$ assigns a value $f(x)$ for each $x in X$.
But if $X$ is large, we may want to use efficient ways to express $f(x)$ in terms of $x$.



To define a function on a manifold, we just need to assignment a value $f(p)$ for all $p in mathcal M$. (Which maybe also satisfied other conditions, e.g. smoothness.) If such an assignment is given, it will be automatically coordinate-free, since we did never toughed the charts to define it. That's the reason why we like this approach for abstract purposes.



But since our human brain has only finite memory,
this method is a bit unpractical if we want to do calculations etc.



How can we practically define functions on manifolds





  1. Gobal chart: If we have a global chart $h: mathcal M to mathbb R^n$, then we can define a function $f = tilde f circ h$, with $tilde f:mathbb R^n to mathbb R$ being a smooth function.



    Similary, we might use embeddings $e: mathcal M to mathbb R^N$ to define a function for example on submanifolds of $mathbb R^N$.
    This is for example commonly used to define maps on submanifolds ($mathrm{GL}(n)$, $mathrm{SO}(n)$, ...) of the manifold of matrices $mathrm{Mat}(ntimes n)$.



  2. Finitely many charts: For two charts $h_1: mathcal U to mathbb R^n$ and $h_2: mathcal V to mathbb R^n$, we may define $f_1 : mathcal U to mathbb R$ and $f_2 : mathcal V to mathbb R$ as above, but then $f_1 = f_2$ must be assured on the intersection of the chart domains, i.e. for all $p in mathcal U cap mathcal V$.



  3. Implicit definitions:
    It is sometimes still possible to calculate on manifolds, without having an explicit formula for a function.





    1. Solutions of (partial) differential equations:
      Assume, we can define a differential equation on a manifold.



      For example the Laplace equation $Delta u = 0$ (with some boundary conditions, for example constant values on 'some' boundaries). Then we can define a map $u(p)$, by claiming that it is the unique solution of the partial differential equation. In particular, it is sufficient to provide a finite amount of data, to define the function! If the manifold has two boundaries, we just need to pick two numbers and $u$ is defined (if the PDE is well-defined, of course)!
      With this function $u$, we can continue to work, since we have (implicit) information about the function $u$ as well, which is sufficient for many tasks.



      But the examples don't stop here: We have the geodesic equation (and ODE), or Hamiltons equations etc...



      Of course there is a hidden trap: To define a differential equation, say $dot x(t) = F(x(t))$ on a manifold, we need a vector field $F$, which is
      again a function $F: mathcal M to T mathcal M$.



      But in important special cases, we know a little bit about $T mathcal M$, which allows us to define, maybe implicitly, interesting functions of that type.
      (For example if $mathcal M$ is a Lie group, then we can define one value $F(1) in T_1 mathcal M$. Now Lie groups are super cool and for each point $p$ there is a meaningful map $T lambda_p : T_1 mathcal M to T_p mathcal M$. This allows us to define $F(p) = D lambda_p F(1)$. Expressed in coordinates, this map may not look like a constant map, and the solutions $x(t)$ are also somehow interesting.)






At the end...
It is good to ask these equations! And be patient with the theory. Differential geometry need some time to feel natural, but after a while you will see that numbers, charts and coordinates are sometimes false friends. Spaces are often quite nonlinear!



EDIT:



Concrete Example:



We use a function $f: mathbb R^3 to mathbb R: (x,y,z) mapsto x^2+y^4+z^2$.



Then we define $mathcal M := f^{-1}({1})$. This is indeed a manifold by the constant rank theorem, since $mathrm{rk}(mathrm{D} f(p)) = 1$, for all points $p in mathcal M$.



But we also have an embedding $mathcal M to mathbb R^3: p=(x,y,z) mapsto (x,y,z)$.



Therefore I can choose a function on $mathbb R^3$, say
$$
tilde f(x,y,z) = sin(x) cdot exp(y)^{z^2}
$$

and define
$$
f(p) = tilde f circ e = tilde f(x,y,z).
$$



As you see, we did not directly use the charts of $mathcal M$, but only implicit information about $mathcal M$.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • Thank you for your answer man...so, would you say that abstract manifold is actually defined through its charts?
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 19:21










  • Because, you see, I have a problem. I used to think its all clear, you know, you define some coordinet axes and than put some numbers on space points, in 3d physical space eg. But then it ocured to me, where and how should I put the axes and what are these axes exactly?
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 19:24










  • Even more so, if you try to chart a space time manifold which is actually our physical space....torsion free, 4d manifold lalaalala...
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 19:25










  • I added a concrete example, which does not use charts directly. About the charts: (I agree with the replies from Federico.) Yes, charts are part of the differentiable structure, which is needed to define a manifold. But, we do not need to know them explicitly and even if, the idea is to think about points of a manifold to be not just points, which we can described in a linear manner by a few numbers. About physical spaces: Is there one or are there many (equally important) charts for physical spaces? Some calculus laws with x-y-z coordinates are simply not true for general charts.
    – Steffen Plunder
    Nov 19 at 19:46


















up vote
0
down vote














How can we define a function in the first place since it is on points P which need not be numbers.




Functions need not be defined only on "numbers", whatever that means.
Functions can be defined on arbitrary sets, in particular manifolds. For instance, given a manifold $M$, you can consider $f:Mtomathbb R$ defined as $f(p)=0$ for every $pin M$. Also notice that charts are actually functions $Msupset Utomathbb R^d$, so I don't understand why you are ok with them but not with other functions.






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  • yes I agree that you can say it is zero everywhere, but that is not the point. How can you define in an exact way something more complicated?
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 18:54










  • What do you mean? $M^S={f:M to S}$ is a well defined set for every $M$ and $S$.
    – Federico
    Nov 19 at 18:55










  • Regarding charts, yes, I am aware of them being maps from a manifold M to Rd, but not to R. Nevertheless, it still confuses me. How exactly do you chart a manifold?
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 18:56










  • There can be plenty of ways to describe any specific function.
    – Federico
    Nov 19 at 18:56










  • For instance, $S^2subsetmathbb R^3$ can be endowed with a manifold structure. But since it is also already embedded inside $mathbb R^3$, you can also just take any function defined on the ambient space and restrict it.
    – Federico
    Nov 19 at 18:57











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2 Answers
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active

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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes








up vote
2
down vote













I like your question, since I believe it is connected to one of the core topics of differential geometry.
Being not an expert, I can only give you my humble opinion on it, which is better expressed by a few questions, rather than long answers...



Abstract vs. concrete functions...



For sets $X, Y$, a function $f: X to Y$ assigns a value $f(x)$ for each $x in X$.
But if $X$ is large, we may want to use efficient ways to express $f(x)$ in terms of $x$.



To define a function on a manifold, we just need to assignment a value $f(p)$ for all $p in mathcal M$. (Which maybe also satisfied other conditions, e.g. smoothness.) If such an assignment is given, it will be automatically coordinate-free, since we did never toughed the charts to define it. That's the reason why we like this approach for abstract purposes.



But since our human brain has only finite memory,
this method is a bit unpractical if we want to do calculations etc.



How can we practically define functions on manifolds





  1. Gobal chart: If we have a global chart $h: mathcal M to mathbb R^n$, then we can define a function $f = tilde f circ h$, with $tilde f:mathbb R^n to mathbb R$ being a smooth function.



    Similary, we might use embeddings $e: mathcal M to mathbb R^N$ to define a function for example on submanifolds of $mathbb R^N$.
    This is for example commonly used to define maps on submanifolds ($mathrm{GL}(n)$, $mathrm{SO}(n)$, ...) of the manifold of matrices $mathrm{Mat}(ntimes n)$.



  2. Finitely many charts: For two charts $h_1: mathcal U to mathbb R^n$ and $h_2: mathcal V to mathbb R^n$, we may define $f_1 : mathcal U to mathbb R$ and $f_2 : mathcal V to mathbb R$ as above, but then $f_1 = f_2$ must be assured on the intersection of the chart domains, i.e. for all $p in mathcal U cap mathcal V$.



  3. Implicit definitions:
    It is sometimes still possible to calculate on manifolds, without having an explicit formula for a function.





    1. Solutions of (partial) differential equations:
      Assume, we can define a differential equation on a manifold.



      For example the Laplace equation $Delta u = 0$ (with some boundary conditions, for example constant values on 'some' boundaries). Then we can define a map $u(p)$, by claiming that it is the unique solution of the partial differential equation. In particular, it is sufficient to provide a finite amount of data, to define the function! If the manifold has two boundaries, we just need to pick two numbers and $u$ is defined (if the PDE is well-defined, of course)!
      With this function $u$, we can continue to work, since we have (implicit) information about the function $u$ as well, which is sufficient for many tasks.



      But the examples don't stop here: We have the geodesic equation (and ODE), or Hamiltons equations etc...



      Of course there is a hidden trap: To define a differential equation, say $dot x(t) = F(x(t))$ on a manifold, we need a vector field $F$, which is
      again a function $F: mathcal M to T mathcal M$.



      But in important special cases, we know a little bit about $T mathcal M$, which allows us to define, maybe implicitly, interesting functions of that type.
      (For example if $mathcal M$ is a Lie group, then we can define one value $F(1) in T_1 mathcal M$. Now Lie groups are super cool and for each point $p$ there is a meaningful map $T lambda_p : T_1 mathcal M to T_p mathcal M$. This allows us to define $F(p) = D lambda_p F(1)$. Expressed in coordinates, this map may not look like a constant map, and the solutions $x(t)$ are also somehow interesting.)






At the end...
It is good to ask these equations! And be patient with the theory. Differential geometry need some time to feel natural, but after a while you will see that numbers, charts and coordinates are sometimes false friends. Spaces are often quite nonlinear!



EDIT:



Concrete Example:



We use a function $f: mathbb R^3 to mathbb R: (x,y,z) mapsto x^2+y^4+z^2$.



Then we define $mathcal M := f^{-1}({1})$. This is indeed a manifold by the constant rank theorem, since $mathrm{rk}(mathrm{D} f(p)) = 1$, for all points $p in mathcal M$.



But we also have an embedding $mathcal M to mathbb R^3: p=(x,y,z) mapsto (x,y,z)$.



Therefore I can choose a function on $mathbb R^3$, say
$$
tilde f(x,y,z) = sin(x) cdot exp(y)^{z^2}
$$

and define
$$
f(p) = tilde f circ e = tilde f(x,y,z).
$$



As you see, we did not directly use the charts of $mathcal M$, but only implicit information about $mathcal M$.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • Thank you for your answer man...so, would you say that abstract manifold is actually defined through its charts?
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 19:21










  • Because, you see, I have a problem. I used to think its all clear, you know, you define some coordinet axes and than put some numbers on space points, in 3d physical space eg. But then it ocured to me, where and how should I put the axes and what are these axes exactly?
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 19:24










  • Even more so, if you try to chart a space time manifold which is actually our physical space....torsion free, 4d manifold lalaalala...
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 19:25










  • I added a concrete example, which does not use charts directly. About the charts: (I agree with the replies from Federico.) Yes, charts are part of the differentiable structure, which is needed to define a manifold. But, we do not need to know them explicitly and even if, the idea is to think about points of a manifold to be not just points, which we can described in a linear manner by a few numbers. About physical spaces: Is there one or are there many (equally important) charts for physical spaces? Some calculus laws with x-y-z coordinates are simply not true for general charts.
    – Steffen Plunder
    Nov 19 at 19:46















up vote
2
down vote













I like your question, since I believe it is connected to one of the core topics of differential geometry.
Being not an expert, I can only give you my humble opinion on it, which is better expressed by a few questions, rather than long answers...



Abstract vs. concrete functions...



For sets $X, Y$, a function $f: X to Y$ assigns a value $f(x)$ for each $x in X$.
But if $X$ is large, we may want to use efficient ways to express $f(x)$ in terms of $x$.



To define a function on a manifold, we just need to assignment a value $f(p)$ for all $p in mathcal M$. (Which maybe also satisfied other conditions, e.g. smoothness.) If such an assignment is given, it will be automatically coordinate-free, since we did never toughed the charts to define it. That's the reason why we like this approach for abstract purposes.



But since our human brain has only finite memory,
this method is a bit unpractical if we want to do calculations etc.



How can we practically define functions on manifolds





  1. Gobal chart: If we have a global chart $h: mathcal M to mathbb R^n$, then we can define a function $f = tilde f circ h$, with $tilde f:mathbb R^n to mathbb R$ being a smooth function.



    Similary, we might use embeddings $e: mathcal M to mathbb R^N$ to define a function for example on submanifolds of $mathbb R^N$.
    This is for example commonly used to define maps on submanifolds ($mathrm{GL}(n)$, $mathrm{SO}(n)$, ...) of the manifold of matrices $mathrm{Mat}(ntimes n)$.



  2. Finitely many charts: For two charts $h_1: mathcal U to mathbb R^n$ and $h_2: mathcal V to mathbb R^n$, we may define $f_1 : mathcal U to mathbb R$ and $f_2 : mathcal V to mathbb R$ as above, but then $f_1 = f_2$ must be assured on the intersection of the chart domains, i.e. for all $p in mathcal U cap mathcal V$.



  3. Implicit definitions:
    It is sometimes still possible to calculate on manifolds, without having an explicit formula for a function.





    1. Solutions of (partial) differential equations:
      Assume, we can define a differential equation on a manifold.



      For example the Laplace equation $Delta u = 0$ (with some boundary conditions, for example constant values on 'some' boundaries). Then we can define a map $u(p)$, by claiming that it is the unique solution of the partial differential equation. In particular, it is sufficient to provide a finite amount of data, to define the function! If the manifold has two boundaries, we just need to pick two numbers and $u$ is defined (if the PDE is well-defined, of course)!
      With this function $u$, we can continue to work, since we have (implicit) information about the function $u$ as well, which is sufficient for many tasks.



      But the examples don't stop here: We have the geodesic equation (and ODE), or Hamiltons equations etc...



      Of course there is a hidden trap: To define a differential equation, say $dot x(t) = F(x(t))$ on a manifold, we need a vector field $F$, which is
      again a function $F: mathcal M to T mathcal M$.



      But in important special cases, we know a little bit about $T mathcal M$, which allows us to define, maybe implicitly, interesting functions of that type.
      (For example if $mathcal M$ is a Lie group, then we can define one value $F(1) in T_1 mathcal M$. Now Lie groups are super cool and for each point $p$ there is a meaningful map $T lambda_p : T_1 mathcal M to T_p mathcal M$. This allows us to define $F(p) = D lambda_p F(1)$. Expressed in coordinates, this map may not look like a constant map, and the solutions $x(t)$ are also somehow interesting.)






At the end...
It is good to ask these equations! And be patient with the theory. Differential geometry need some time to feel natural, but after a while you will see that numbers, charts and coordinates are sometimes false friends. Spaces are often quite nonlinear!



EDIT:



Concrete Example:



We use a function $f: mathbb R^3 to mathbb R: (x,y,z) mapsto x^2+y^4+z^2$.



Then we define $mathcal M := f^{-1}({1})$. This is indeed a manifold by the constant rank theorem, since $mathrm{rk}(mathrm{D} f(p)) = 1$, for all points $p in mathcal M$.



But we also have an embedding $mathcal M to mathbb R^3: p=(x,y,z) mapsto (x,y,z)$.



Therefore I can choose a function on $mathbb R^3$, say
$$
tilde f(x,y,z) = sin(x) cdot exp(y)^{z^2}
$$

and define
$$
f(p) = tilde f circ e = tilde f(x,y,z).
$$



As you see, we did not directly use the charts of $mathcal M$, but only implicit information about $mathcal M$.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • Thank you for your answer man...so, would you say that abstract manifold is actually defined through its charts?
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 19:21










  • Because, you see, I have a problem. I used to think its all clear, you know, you define some coordinet axes and than put some numbers on space points, in 3d physical space eg. But then it ocured to me, where and how should I put the axes and what are these axes exactly?
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 19:24










  • Even more so, if you try to chart a space time manifold which is actually our physical space....torsion free, 4d manifold lalaalala...
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 19:25










  • I added a concrete example, which does not use charts directly. About the charts: (I agree with the replies from Federico.) Yes, charts are part of the differentiable structure, which is needed to define a manifold. But, we do not need to know them explicitly and even if, the idea is to think about points of a manifold to be not just points, which we can described in a linear manner by a few numbers. About physical spaces: Is there one or are there many (equally important) charts for physical spaces? Some calculus laws with x-y-z coordinates are simply not true for general charts.
    – Steffen Plunder
    Nov 19 at 19:46













up vote
2
down vote










up vote
2
down vote









I like your question, since I believe it is connected to one of the core topics of differential geometry.
Being not an expert, I can only give you my humble opinion on it, which is better expressed by a few questions, rather than long answers...



Abstract vs. concrete functions...



For sets $X, Y$, a function $f: X to Y$ assigns a value $f(x)$ for each $x in X$.
But if $X$ is large, we may want to use efficient ways to express $f(x)$ in terms of $x$.



To define a function on a manifold, we just need to assignment a value $f(p)$ for all $p in mathcal M$. (Which maybe also satisfied other conditions, e.g. smoothness.) If such an assignment is given, it will be automatically coordinate-free, since we did never toughed the charts to define it. That's the reason why we like this approach for abstract purposes.



But since our human brain has only finite memory,
this method is a bit unpractical if we want to do calculations etc.



How can we practically define functions on manifolds





  1. Gobal chart: If we have a global chart $h: mathcal M to mathbb R^n$, then we can define a function $f = tilde f circ h$, with $tilde f:mathbb R^n to mathbb R$ being a smooth function.



    Similary, we might use embeddings $e: mathcal M to mathbb R^N$ to define a function for example on submanifolds of $mathbb R^N$.
    This is for example commonly used to define maps on submanifolds ($mathrm{GL}(n)$, $mathrm{SO}(n)$, ...) of the manifold of matrices $mathrm{Mat}(ntimes n)$.



  2. Finitely many charts: For two charts $h_1: mathcal U to mathbb R^n$ and $h_2: mathcal V to mathbb R^n$, we may define $f_1 : mathcal U to mathbb R$ and $f_2 : mathcal V to mathbb R$ as above, but then $f_1 = f_2$ must be assured on the intersection of the chart domains, i.e. for all $p in mathcal U cap mathcal V$.



  3. Implicit definitions:
    It is sometimes still possible to calculate on manifolds, without having an explicit formula for a function.





    1. Solutions of (partial) differential equations:
      Assume, we can define a differential equation on a manifold.



      For example the Laplace equation $Delta u = 0$ (with some boundary conditions, for example constant values on 'some' boundaries). Then we can define a map $u(p)$, by claiming that it is the unique solution of the partial differential equation. In particular, it is sufficient to provide a finite amount of data, to define the function! If the manifold has two boundaries, we just need to pick two numbers and $u$ is defined (if the PDE is well-defined, of course)!
      With this function $u$, we can continue to work, since we have (implicit) information about the function $u$ as well, which is sufficient for many tasks.



      But the examples don't stop here: We have the geodesic equation (and ODE), or Hamiltons equations etc...



      Of course there is a hidden trap: To define a differential equation, say $dot x(t) = F(x(t))$ on a manifold, we need a vector field $F$, which is
      again a function $F: mathcal M to T mathcal M$.



      But in important special cases, we know a little bit about $T mathcal M$, which allows us to define, maybe implicitly, interesting functions of that type.
      (For example if $mathcal M$ is a Lie group, then we can define one value $F(1) in T_1 mathcal M$. Now Lie groups are super cool and for each point $p$ there is a meaningful map $T lambda_p : T_1 mathcal M to T_p mathcal M$. This allows us to define $F(p) = D lambda_p F(1)$. Expressed in coordinates, this map may not look like a constant map, and the solutions $x(t)$ are also somehow interesting.)






At the end...
It is good to ask these equations! And be patient with the theory. Differential geometry need some time to feel natural, but after a while you will see that numbers, charts and coordinates are sometimes false friends. Spaces are often quite nonlinear!



EDIT:



Concrete Example:



We use a function $f: mathbb R^3 to mathbb R: (x,y,z) mapsto x^2+y^4+z^2$.



Then we define $mathcal M := f^{-1}({1})$. This is indeed a manifold by the constant rank theorem, since $mathrm{rk}(mathrm{D} f(p)) = 1$, for all points $p in mathcal M$.



But we also have an embedding $mathcal M to mathbb R^3: p=(x,y,z) mapsto (x,y,z)$.



Therefore I can choose a function on $mathbb R^3$, say
$$
tilde f(x,y,z) = sin(x) cdot exp(y)^{z^2}
$$

and define
$$
f(p) = tilde f circ e = tilde f(x,y,z).
$$



As you see, we did not directly use the charts of $mathcal M$, but only implicit information about $mathcal M$.






share|cite|improve this answer














I like your question, since I believe it is connected to one of the core topics of differential geometry.
Being not an expert, I can only give you my humble opinion on it, which is better expressed by a few questions, rather than long answers...



Abstract vs. concrete functions...



For sets $X, Y$, a function $f: X to Y$ assigns a value $f(x)$ for each $x in X$.
But if $X$ is large, we may want to use efficient ways to express $f(x)$ in terms of $x$.



To define a function on a manifold, we just need to assignment a value $f(p)$ for all $p in mathcal M$. (Which maybe also satisfied other conditions, e.g. smoothness.) If such an assignment is given, it will be automatically coordinate-free, since we did never toughed the charts to define it. That's the reason why we like this approach for abstract purposes.



But since our human brain has only finite memory,
this method is a bit unpractical if we want to do calculations etc.



How can we practically define functions on manifolds





  1. Gobal chart: If we have a global chart $h: mathcal M to mathbb R^n$, then we can define a function $f = tilde f circ h$, with $tilde f:mathbb R^n to mathbb R$ being a smooth function.



    Similary, we might use embeddings $e: mathcal M to mathbb R^N$ to define a function for example on submanifolds of $mathbb R^N$.
    This is for example commonly used to define maps on submanifolds ($mathrm{GL}(n)$, $mathrm{SO}(n)$, ...) of the manifold of matrices $mathrm{Mat}(ntimes n)$.



  2. Finitely many charts: For two charts $h_1: mathcal U to mathbb R^n$ and $h_2: mathcal V to mathbb R^n$, we may define $f_1 : mathcal U to mathbb R$ and $f_2 : mathcal V to mathbb R$ as above, but then $f_1 = f_2$ must be assured on the intersection of the chart domains, i.e. for all $p in mathcal U cap mathcal V$.



  3. Implicit definitions:
    It is sometimes still possible to calculate on manifolds, without having an explicit formula for a function.





    1. Solutions of (partial) differential equations:
      Assume, we can define a differential equation on a manifold.



      For example the Laplace equation $Delta u = 0$ (with some boundary conditions, for example constant values on 'some' boundaries). Then we can define a map $u(p)$, by claiming that it is the unique solution of the partial differential equation. In particular, it is sufficient to provide a finite amount of data, to define the function! If the manifold has two boundaries, we just need to pick two numbers and $u$ is defined (if the PDE is well-defined, of course)!
      With this function $u$, we can continue to work, since we have (implicit) information about the function $u$ as well, which is sufficient for many tasks.



      But the examples don't stop here: We have the geodesic equation (and ODE), or Hamiltons equations etc...



      Of course there is a hidden trap: To define a differential equation, say $dot x(t) = F(x(t))$ on a manifold, we need a vector field $F$, which is
      again a function $F: mathcal M to T mathcal M$.



      But in important special cases, we know a little bit about $T mathcal M$, which allows us to define, maybe implicitly, interesting functions of that type.
      (For example if $mathcal M$ is a Lie group, then we can define one value $F(1) in T_1 mathcal M$. Now Lie groups are super cool and for each point $p$ there is a meaningful map $T lambda_p : T_1 mathcal M to T_p mathcal M$. This allows us to define $F(p) = D lambda_p F(1)$. Expressed in coordinates, this map may not look like a constant map, and the solutions $x(t)$ are also somehow interesting.)






At the end...
It is good to ask these equations! And be patient with the theory. Differential geometry need some time to feel natural, but after a while you will see that numbers, charts and coordinates are sometimes false friends. Spaces are often quite nonlinear!



EDIT:



Concrete Example:



We use a function $f: mathbb R^3 to mathbb R: (x,y,z) mapsto x^2+y^4+z^2$.



Then we define $mathcal M := f^{-1}({1})$. This is indeed a manifold by the constant rank theorem, since $mathrm{rk}(mathrm{D} f(p)) = 1$, for all points $p in mathcal M$.



But we also have an embedding $mathcal M to mathbb R^3: p=(x,y,z) mapsto (x,y,z)$.



Therefore I can choose a function on $mathbb R^3$, say
$$
tilde f(x,y,z) = sin(x) cdot exp(y)^{z^2}
$$

and define
$$
f(p) = tilde f circ e = tilde f(x,y,z).
$$



As you see, we did not directly use the charts of $mathcal M$, but only implicit information about $mathcal M$.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Nov 22 at 18:02

























answered Nov 19 at 19:18









Steffen Plunder

508211




508211












  • Thank you for your answer man...so, would you say that abstract manifold is actually defined through its charts?
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 19:21










  • Because, you see, I have a problem. I used to think its all clear, you know, you define some coordinet axes and than put some numbers on space points, in 3d physical space eg. But then it ocured to me, where and how should I put the axes and what are these axes exactly?
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 19:24










  • Even more so, if you try to chart a space time manifold which is actually our physical space....torsion free, 4d manifold lalaalala...
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 19:25










  • I added a concrete example, which does not use charts directly. About the charts: (I agree with the replies from Federico.) Yes, charts are part of the differentiable structure, which is needed to define a manifold. But, we do not need to know them explicitly and even if, the idea is to think about points of a manifold to be not just points, which we can described in a linear manner by a few numbers. About physical spaces: Is there one or are there many (equally important) charts for physical spaces? Some calculus laws with x-y-z coordinates are simply not true for general charts.
    – Steffen Plunder
    Nov 19 at 19:46


















  • Thank you for your answer man...so, would you say that abstract manifold is actually defined through its charts?
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 19:21










  • Because, you see, I have a problem. I used to think its all clear, you know, you define some coordinet axes and than put some numbers on space points, in 3d physical space eg. But then it ocured to me, where and how should I put the axes and what are these axes exactly?
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 19:24










  • Even more so, if you try to chart a space time manifold which is actually our physical space....torsion free, 4d manifold lalaalala...
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 19:25










  • I added a concrete example, which does not use charts directly. About the charts: (I agree with the replies from Federico.) Yes, charts are part of the differentiable structure, which is needed to define a manifold. But, we do not need to know them explicitly and even if, the idea is to think about points of a manifold to be not just points, which we can described in a linear manner by a few numbers. About physical spaces: Is there one or are there many (equally important) charts for physical spaces? Some calculus laws with x-y-z coordinates are simply not true for general charts.
    – Steffen Plunder
    Nov 19 at 19:46
















Thank you for your answer man...so, would you say that abstract manifold is actually defined through its charts?
– Žarko Tomičić
Nov 19 at 19:21




Thank you for your answer man...so, would you say that abstract manifold is actually defined through its charts?
– Žarko Tomičić
Nov 19 at 19:21












Because, you see, I have a problem. I used to think its all clear, you know, you define some coordinet axes and than put some numbers on space points, in 3d physical space eg. But then it ocured to me, where and how should I put the axes and what are these axes exactly?
– Žarko Tomičić
Nov 19 at 19:24




Because, you see, I have a problem. I used to think its all clear, you know, you define some coordinet axes and than put some numbers on space points, in 3d physical space eg. But then it ocured to me, where and how should I put the axes and what are these axes exactly?
– Žarko Tomičić
Nov 19 at 19:24












Even more so, if you try to chart a space time manifold which is actually our physical space....torsion free, 4d manifold lalaalala...
– Žarko Tomičić
Nov 19 at 19:25




Even more so, if you try to chart a space time manifold which is actually our physical space....torsion free, 4d manifold lalaalala...
– Žarko Tomičić
Nov 19 at 19:25












I added a concrete example, which does not use charts directly. About the charts: (I agree with the replies from Federico.) Yes, charts are part of the differentiable structure, which is needed to define a manifold. But, we do not need to know them explicitly and even if, the idea is to think about points of a manifold to be not just points, which we can described in a linear manner by a few numbers. About physical spaces: Is there one or are there many (equally important) charts for physical spaces? Some calculus laws with x-y-z coordinates are simply not true for general charts.
– Steffen Plunder
Nov 19 at 19:46




I added a concrete example, which does not use charts directly. About the charts: (I agree with the replies from Federico.) Yes, charts are part of the differentiable structure, which is needed to define a manifold. But, we do not need to know them explicitly and even if, the idea is to think about points of a manifold to be not just points, which we can described in a linear manner by a few numbers. About physical spaces: Is there one or are there many (equally important) charts for physical spaces? Some calculus laws with x-y-z coordinates are simply not true for general charts.
– Steffen Plunder
Nov 19 at 19:46










up vote
0
down vote














How can we define a function in the first place since it is on points P which need not be numbers.




Functions need not be defined only on "numbers", whatever that means.
Functions can be defined on arbitrary sets, in particular manifolds. For instance, given a manifold $M$, you can consider $f:Mtomathbb R$ defined as $f(p)=0$ for every $pin M$. Also notice that charts are actually functions $Msupset Utomathbb R^d$, so I don't understand why you are ok with them but not with other functions.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • yes I agree that you can say it is zero everywhere, but that is not the point. How can you define in an exact way something more complicated?
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 18:54










  • What do you mean? $M^S={f:M to S}$ is a well defined set for every $M$ and $S$.
    – Federico
    Nov 19 at 18:55










  • Regarding charts, yes, I am aware of them being maps from a manifold M to Rd, but not to R. Nevertheless, it still confuses me. How exactly do you chart a manifold?
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 18:56










  • There can be plenty of ways to describe any specific function.
    – Federico
    Nov 19 at 18:56










  • For instance, $S^2subsetmathbb R^3$ can be endowed with a manifold structure. But since it is also already embedded inside $mathbb R^3$, you can also just take any function defined on the ambient space and restrict it.
    – Federico
    Nov 19 at 18:57















up vote
0
down vote














How can we define a function in the first place since it is on points P which need not be numbers.




Functions need not be defined only on "numbers", whatever that means.
Functions can be defined on arbitrary sets, in particular manifolds. For instance, given a manifold $M$, you can consider $f:Mtomathbb R$ defined as $f(p)=0$ for every $pin M$. Also notice that charts are actually functions $Msupset Utomathbb R^d$, so I don't understand why you are ok with them but not with other functions.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • yes I agree that you can say it is zero everywhere, but that is not the point. How can you define in an exact way something more complicated?
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 18:54










  • What do you mean? $M^S={f:M to S}$ is a well defined set for every $M$ and $S$.
    – Federico
    Nov 19 at 18:55










  • Regarding charts, yes, I am aware of them being maps from a manifold M to Rd, but not to R. Nevertheless, it still confuses me. How exactly do you chart a manifold?
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 18:56










  • There can be plenty of ways to describe any specific function.
    – Federico
    Nov 19 at 18:56










  • For instance, $S^2subsetmathbb R^3$ can be endowed with a manifold structure. But since it is also already embedded inside $mathbb R^3$, you can also just take any function defined on the ambient space and restrict it.
    – Federico
    Nov 19 at 18:57













up vote
0
down vote










up vote
0
down vote










How can we define a function in the first place since it is on points P which need not be numbers.




Functions need not be defined only on "numbers", whatever that means.
Functions can be defined on arbitrary sets, in particular manifolds. For instance, given a manifold $M$, you can consider $f:Mtomathbb R$ defined as $f(p)=0$ for every $pin M$. Also notice that charts are actually functions $Msupset Utomathbb R^d$, so I don't understand why you are ok with them but not with other functions.






share|cite|improve this answer













How can we define a function in the first place since it is on points P which need not be numbers.




Functions need not be defined only on "numbers", whatever that means.
Functions can be defined on arbitrary sets, in particular manifolds. For instance, given a manifold $M$, you can consider $f:Mtomathbb R$ defined as $f(p)=0$ for every $pin M$. Also notice that charts are actually functions $Msupset Utomathbb R^d$, so I don't understand why you are ok with them but not with other functions.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered Nov 19 at 18:41









Federico

4,168512




4,168512












  • yes I agree that you can say it is zero everywhere, but that is not the point. How can you define in an exact way something more complicated?
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 18:54










  • What do you mean? $M^S={f:M to S}$ is a well defined set for every $M$ and $S$.
    – Federico
    Nov 19 at 18:55










  • Regarding charts, yes, I am aware of them being maps from a manifold M to Rd, but not to R. Nevertheless, it still confuses me. How exactly do you chart a manifold?
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 18:56










  • There can be plenty of ways to describe any specific function.
    – Federico
    Nov 19 at 18:56










  • For instance, $S^2subsetmathbb R^3$ can be endowed with a manifold structure. But since it is also already embedded inside $mathbb R^3$, you can also just take any function defined on the ambient space and restrict it.
    – Federico
    Nov 19 at 18:57


















  • yes I agree that you can say it is zero everywhere, but that is not the point. How can you define in an exact way something more complicated?
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 18:54










  • What do you mean? $M^S={f:M to S}$ is a well defined set for every $M$ and $S$.
    – Federico
    Nov 19 at 18:55










  • Regarding charts, yes, I am aware of them being maps from a manifold M to Rd, but not to R. Nevertheless, it still confuses me. How exactly do you chart a manifold?
    – Žarko Tomičić
    Nov 19 at 18:56










  • There can be plenty of ways to describe any specific function.
    – Federico
    Nov 19 at 18:56










  • For instance, $S^2subsetmathbb R^3$ can be endowed with a manifold structure. But since it is also already embedded inside $mathbb R^3$, you can also just take any function defined on the ambient space and restrict it.
    – Federico
    Nov 19 at 18:57
















yes I agree that you can say it is zero everywhere, but that is not the point. How can you define in an exact way something more complicated?
– Žarko Tomičić
Nov 19 at 18:54




yes I agree that you can say it is zero everywhere, but that is not the point. How can you define in an exact way something more complicated?
– Žarko Tomičić
Nov 19 at 18:54












What do you mean? $M^S={f:M to S}$ is a well defined set for every $M$ and $S$.
– Federico
Nov 19 at 18:55




What do you mean? $M^S={f:M to S}$ is a well defined set for every $M$ and $S$.
– Federico
Nov 19 at 18:55












Regarding charts, yes, I am aware of them being maps from a manifold M to Rd, but not to R. Nevertheless, it still confuses me. How exactly do you chart a manifold?
– Žarko Tomičić
Nov 19 at 18:56




Regarding charts, yes, I am aware of them being maps from a manifold M to Rd, but not to R. Nevertheless, it still confuses me. How exactly do you chart a manifold?
– Žarko Tomičić
Nov 19 at 18:56












There can be plenty of ways to describe any specific function.
– Federico
Nov 19 at 18:56




There can be plenty of ways to describe any specific function.
– Federico
Nov 19 at 18:56












For instance, $S^2subsetmathbb R^3$ can be endowed with a manifold structure. But since it is also already embedded inside $mathbb R^3$, you can also just take any function defined on the ambient space and restrict it.
– Federico
Nov 19 at 18:57




For instance, $S^2subsetmathbb R^3$ can be endowed with a manifold structure. But since it is also already embedded inside $mathbb R^3$, you can also just take any function defined on the ambient space and restrict it.
– Federico
Nov 19 at 18:57


















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