Cost optimization - PCB Area vs. Double-sided load












3














If one has an opportunity to choose between laying out a PCB as either a single-side load (components all on one side, so it goes through reflow only once and requires only one stencil) or a double-side load but using half the PCB area (so twice the number of boards per panel), which cost optimization tends to be more economical?



I've read this question, but there is no accepted answer and the two answers that are present seem to be at odds with each other. One answer shows that single vs. double-sided for the same board resulting in a small savings ($0.161/board), but that answer didn't include a comparison for board area reduction. It did seem to imply that the single vs. double side load cost different is rather small.



The other answer seemed to imply that single-sided assembly was probably the larger cost driver, but then states that it impossible to know without specifics.



Presume that no components require special treatment (i.e. no gluing or hand-soldering - just a bunch of SMD components).










share|improve this question






















  • I agree with the "other answer" --- it's impossible to say one way or the other definitively without knowing specifics. Perhaps you could narrow the scope of your question to give some of these specifics.
    – Shamtam
    Nov 30 '18 at 16:17








  • 1




    What is the layer count of the board in both cases?
    – mkeith
    Nov 30 '18 at 17:39










  • @mkeith For the purposes of my question, let's presume that they are the same in both cases. If you want a specific number, in my case it's likely to be 4 layers in both cases.
    – rothloup
    Nov 30 '18 at 18:22
















3














If one has an opportunity to choose between laying out a PCB as either a single-side load (components all on one side, so it goes through reflow only once and requires only one stencil) or a double-side load but using half the PCB area (so twice the number of boards per panel), which cost optimization tends to be more economical?



I've read this question, but there is no accepted answer and the two answers that are present seem to be at odds with each other. One answer shows that single vs. double-sided for the same board resulting in a small savings ($0.161/board), but that answer didn't include a comparison for board area reduction. It did seem to imply that the single vs. double side load cost different is rather small.



The other answer seemed to imply that single-sided assembly was probably the larger cost driver, but then states that it impossible to know without specifics.



Presume that no components require special treatment (i.e. no gluing or hand-soldering - just a bunch of SMD components).










share|improve this question






















  • I agree with the "other answer" --- it's impossible to say one way or the other definitively without knowing specifics. Perhaps you could narrow the scope of your question to give some of these specifics.
    – Shamtam
    Nov 30 '18 at 16:17








  • 1




    What is the layer count of the board in both cases?
    – mkeith
    Nov 30 '18 at 17:39










  • @mkeith For the purposes of my question, let's presume that they are the same in both cases. If you want a specific number, in my case it's likely to be 4 layers in both cases.
    – rothloup
    Nov 30 '18 at 18:22














3












3








3







If one has an opportunity to choose between laying out a PCB as either a single-side load (components all on one side, so it goes through reflow only once and requires only one stencil) or a double-side load but using half the PCB area (so twice the number of boards per panel), which cost optimization tends to be more economical?



I've read this question, but there is no accepted answer and the two answers that are present seem to be at odds with each other. One answer shows that single vs. double-sided for the same board resulting in a small savings ($0.161/board), but that answer didn't include a comparison for board area reduction. It did seem to imply that the single vs. double side load cost different is rather small.



The other answer seemed to imply that single-sided assembly was probably the larger cost driver, but then states that it impossible to know without specifics.



Presume that no components require special treatment (i.e. no gluing or hand-soldering - just a bunch of SMD components).










share|improve this question













If one has an opportunity to choose between laying out a PCB as either a single-side load (components all on one side, so it goes through reflow only once and requires only one stencil) or a double-side load but using half the PCB area (so twice the number of boards per panel), which cost optimization tends to be more economical?



I've read this question, but there is no accepted answer and the two answers that are present seem to be at odds with each other. One answer shows that single vs. double-sided for the same board resulting in a small savings ($0.161/board), but that answer didn't include a comparison for board area reduction. It did seem to imply that the single vs. double side load cost different is rather small.



The other answer seemed to imply that single-sided assembly was probably the larger cost driver, but then states that it impossible to know without specifics.



Presume that no components require special treatment (i.e. no gluing or hand-soldering - just a bunch of SMD components).







layout cost






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked Nov 30 '18 at 16:08









rothloup

20816




20816












  • I agree with the "other answer" --- it's impossible to say one way or the other definitively without knowing specifics. Perhaps you could narrow the scope of your question to give some of these specifics.
    – Shamtam
    Nov 30 '18 at 16:17








  • 1




    What is the layer count of the board in both cases?
    – mkeith
    Nov 30 '18 at 17:39










  • @mkeith For the purposes of my question, let's presume that they are the same in both cases. If you want a specific number, in my case it's likely to be 4 layers in both cases.
    – rothloup
    Nov 30 '18 at 18:22


















  • I agree with the "other answer" --- it's impossible to say one way or the other definitively without knowing specifics. Perhaps you could narrow the scope of your question to give some of these specifics.
    – Shamtam
    Nov 30 '18 at 16:17








  • 1




    What is the layer count of the board in both cases?
    – mkeith
    Nov 30 '18 at 17:39










  • @mkeith For the purposes of my question, let's presume that they are the same in both cases. If you want a specific number, in my case it's likely to be 4 layers in both cases.
    – rothloup
    Nov 30 '18 at 18:22
















I agree with the "other answer" --- it's impossible to say one way or the other definitively without knowing specifics. Perhaps you could narrow the scope of your question to give some of these specifics.
– Shamtam
Nov 30 '18 at 16:17






I agree with the "other answer" --- it's impossible to say one way or the other definitively without knowing specifics. Perhaps you could narrow the scope of your question to give some of these specifics.
– Shamtam
Nov 30 '18 at 16:17






1




1




What is the layer count of the board in both cases?
– mkeith
Nov 30 '18 at 17:39




What is the layer count of the board in both cases?
– mkeith
Nov 30 '18 at 17:39












@mkeith For the purposes of my question, let's presume that they are the same in both cases. If you want a specific number, in my case it's likely to be 4 layers in both cases.
– rothloup
Nov 30 '18 at 18:22




@mkeith For the purposes of my question, let's presume that they are the same in both cases. If you want a specific number, in my case it's likely to be 4 layers in both cases.
– rothloup
Nov 30 '18 at 18:22










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















2














In scenarios like this, I usually ask the fab/ CM to quote both. Even if the solution isn't totally routed, you can place components in an approximate location and change the board size to create an "A" and a "B" option. To them, it's just another quote.



Ultimately it comes down to the cost model of the company you're working with, and the size of your components/ overall solution (including how well it fits into a frame, etc.). If you have one large MCU and a bunch of tiny discretes, a 10% board size reduction may not matter in the face of labor costs for a second SMT process.



However, if you have lots of large-ish components and a double sided board gives a massive size reduction, the fab can order fewer frames and potentially save you quite a bit.






share|improve this answer





























    2














    There are a lot of moving parts when making this comparison, and there's not an easy answer. A double-sided assembly can reduce board area, but can also increase the cost of the board per unit area.



    One thing to consider is that a double-sided design doesn't actually give you twice the space:




    • Each via takes up real estate on every layer of the board, which impedes routing efficiency.

    • IC's often cannot be routed "back-to-back", because the via pads from one IC interfere with the lands of the second IC.

    • Even if you can make it work, it is considered bad practice to mount IC's (especially BGA's) back-to-back, as it makes reflow soldering (and also subsequent x-ray inspection) more difficult.


    These problems can be overcome by using HDI techniques (e.g. blind/buried vias, microvias), but this significantly adds to the cost of the boards. Not to mention an increase in design complexity.





    To compare assembly quotes is easy enough; they only care about how many parts, how many layers, how many reflows. They can quote you for both of these options, before the layout is completed.



    With the PCB quotes, on the other hand, it can be difficult to get a board house to make estimates unless you have a completed design to review. I would recommend making two mock-ups for yourself to see how much space you predict you'll need. Also figure out your stackup, your required trace/space, etc, and then call your board house. Be polite, ask for favors, and they may be able to give you an estimate on the two designs :)





    Finally, in my experience, it isn't a good idea to choose double-sided assembly for cost optimization. For size optimization, though, a tight, double-sided multi-layer HDI design can be a great (if more expensive) solution.






    share|improve this answer





























      2














      You can do your own estimates by using board assembly houses online estimating tools. Example, https://www.screamingcircuits.com/
      Enter the basics of your project, board size, if you want to create a PL in their requested format they'll even get prices from Digikey for parts (make sure you use Tape/Reel part numbers, or the Digireel part numbers). You can supply your own board, or the tool can use prices (from Sunstone I think), supply your own parts, etc.






      share|improve this answer





















        Your Answer





        StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
        return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
        StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
        StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["\$", "\$"]]);
        });
        });
        }, "mathjax-editing");

        StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
        return StackExchange.using("schematics", function () {
        StackExchange.schematics.init();
        });
        }, "cicuitlab");

        StackExchange.ready(function() {
        var channelOptions = {
        tags: "".split(" "),
        id: "135"
        };
        initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

        StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
        // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
        if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
        StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
        createEditor();
        });
        }
        else {
        createEditor();
        }
        });

        function createEditor() {
        StackExchange.prepareEditor({
        heartbeatType: 'answer',
        autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
        convertImagesToLinks: false,
        noModals: true,
        showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
        reputationToPostImages: null,
        bindNavPrevention: true,
        postfix: "",
        imageUploader: {
        brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
        contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
        allowUrls: true
        },
        onDemand: true,
        discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
        ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
        });


        }
        });














        draft saved

        draft discarded


















        StackExchange.ready(
        function () {
        StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2felectronics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f409771%2fcost-optimization-pcb-area-vs-double-sided-load%23new-answer', 'question_page');
        }
        );

        Post as a guest















        Required, but never shown

























        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

        votes








        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        2














        In scenarios like this, I usually ask the fab/ CM to quote both. Even if the solution isn't totally routed, you can place components in an approximate location and change the board size to create an "A" and a "B" option. To them, it's just another quote.



        Ultimately it comes down to the cost model of the company you're working with, and the size of your components/ overall solution (including how well it fits into a frame, etc.). If you have one large MCU and a bunch of tiny discretes, a 10% board size reduction may not matter in the face of labor costs for a second SMT process.



        However, if you have lots of large-ish components and a double sided board gives a massive size reduction, the fab can order fewer frames and potentially save you quite a bit.






        share|improve this answer


























          2














          In scenarios like this, I usually ask the fab/ CM to quote both. Even if the solution isn't totally routed, you can place components in an approximate location and change the board size to create an "A" and a "B" option. To them, it's just another quote.



          Ultimately it comes down to the cost model of the company you're working with, and the size of your components/ overall solution (including how well it fits into a frame, etc.). If you have one large MCU and a bunch of tiny discretes, a 10% board size reduction may not matter in the face of labor costs for a second SMT process.



          However, if you have lots of large-ish components and a double sided board gives a massive size reduction, the fab can order fewer frames and potentially save you quite a bit.






          share|improve this answer
























            2












            2








            2






            In scenarios like this, I usually ask the fab/ CM to quote both. Even if the solution isn't totally routed, you can place components in an approximate location and change the board size to create an "A" and a "B" option. To them, it's just another quote.



            Ultimately it comes down to the cost model of the company you're working with, and the size of your components/ overall solution (including how well it fits into a frame, etc.). If you have one large MCU and a bunch of tiny discretes, a 10% board size reduction may not matter in the face of labor costs for a second SMT process.



            However, if you have lots of large-ish components and a double sided board gives a massive size reduction, the fab can order fewer frames and potentially save you quite a bit.






            share|improve this answer












            In scenarios like this, I usually ask the fab/ CM to quote both. Even if the solution isn't totally routed, you can place components in an approximate location and change the board size to create an "A" and a "B" option. To them, it's just another quote.



            Ultimately it comes down to the cost model of the company you're working with, and the size of your components/ overall solution (including how well it fits into a frame, etc.). If you have one large MCU and a bunch of tiny discretes, a 10% board size reduction may not matter in the face of labor costs for a second SMT process.



            However, if you have lots of large-ish components and a double sided board gives a massive size reduction, the fab can order fewer frames and potentially save you quite a bit.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered Nov 30 '18 at 16:39









            Drewster

            1366




            1366

























                2














                There are a lot of moving parts when making this comparison, and there's not an easy answer. A double-sided assembly can reduce board area, but can also increase the cost of the board per unit area.



                One thing to consider is that a double-sided design doesn't actually give you twice the space:




                • Each via takes up real estate on every layer of the board, which impedes routing efficiency.

                • IC's often cannot be routed "back-to-back", because the via pads from one IC interfere with the lands of the second IC.

                • Even if you can make it work, it is considered bad practice to mount IC's (especially BGA's) back-to-back, as it makes reflow soldering (and also subsequent x-ray inspection) more difficult.


                These problems can be overcome by using HDI techniques (e.g. blind/buried vias, microvias), but this significantly adds to the cost of the boards. Not to mention an increase in design complexity.





                To compare assembly quotes is easy enough; they only care about how many parts, how many layers, how many reflows. They can quote you for both of these options, before the layout is completed.



                With the PCB quotes, on the other hand, it can be difficult to get a board house to make estimates unless you have a completed design to review. I would recommend making two mock-ups for yourself to see how much space you predict you'll need. Also figure out your stackup, your required trace/space, etc, and then call your board house. Be polite, ask for favors, and they may be able to give you an estimate on the two designs :)





                Finally, in my experience, it isn't a good idea to choose double-sided assembly for cost optimization. For size optimization, though, a tight, double-sided multi-layer HDI design can be a great (if more expensive) solution.






                share|improve this answer


























                  2














                  There are a lot of moving parts when making this comparison, and there's not an easy answer. A double-sided assembly can reduce board area, but can also increase the cost of the board per unit area.



                  One thing to consider is that a double-sided design doesn't actually give you twice the space:




                  • Each via takes up real estate on every layer of the board, which impedes routing efficiency.

                  • IC's often cannot be routed "back-to-back", because the via pads from one IC interfere with the lands of the second IC.

                  • Even if you can make it work, it is considered bad practice to mount IC's (especially BGA's) back-to-back, as it makes reflow soldering (and also subsequent x-ray inspection) more difficult.


                  These problems can be overcome by using HDI techniques (e.g. blind/buried vias, microvias), but this significantly adds to the cost of the boards. Not to mention an increase in design complexity.





                  To compare assembly quotes is easy enough; they only care about how many parts, how many layers, how many reflows. They can quote you for both of these options, before the layout is completed.



                  With the PCB quotes, on the other hand, it can be difficult to get a board house to make estimates unless you have a completed design to review. I would recommend making two mock-ups for yourself to see how much space you predict you'll need. Also figure out your stackup, your required trace/space, etc, and then call your board house. Be polite, ask for favors, and they may be able to give you an estimate on the two designs :)





                  Finally, in my experience, it isn't a good idea to choose double-sided assembly for cost optimization. For size optimization, though, a tight, double-sided multi-layer HDI design can be a great (if more expensive) solution.






                  share|improve this answer
























                    2












                    2








                    2






                    There are a lot of moving parts when making this comparison, and there's not an easy answer. A double-sided assembly can reduce board area, but can also increase the cost of the board per unit area.



                    One thing to consider is that a double-sided design doesn't actually give you twice the space:




                    • Each via takes up real estate on every layer of the board, which impedes routing efficiency.

                    • IC's often cannot be routed "back-to-back", because the via pads from one IC interfere with the lands of the second IC.

                    • Even if you can make it work, it is considered bad practice to mount IC's (especially BGA's) back-to-back, as it makes reflow soldering (and also subsequent x-ray inspection) more difficult.


                    These problems can be overcome by using HDI techniques (e.g. blind/buried vias, microvias), but this significantly adds to the cost of the boards. Not to mention an increase in design complexity.





                    To compare assembly quotes is easy enough; they only care about how many parts, how many layers, how many reflows. They can quote you for both of these options, before the layout is completed.



                    With the PCB quotes, on the other hand, it can be difficult to get a board house to make estimates unless you have a completed design to review. I would recommend making two mock-ups for yourself to see how much space you predict you'll need. Also figure out your stackup, your required trace/space, etc, and then call your board house. Be polite, ask for favors, and they may be able to give you an estimate on the two designs :)





                    Finally, in my experience, it isn't a good idea to choose double-sided assembly for cost optimization. For size optimization, though, a tight, double-sided multi-layer HDI design can be a great (if more expensive) solution.






                    share|improve this answer












                    There are a lot of moving parts when making this comparison, and there's not an easy answer. A double-sided assembly can reduce board area, but can also increase the cost of the board per unit area.



                    One thing to consider is that a double-sided design doesn't actually give you twice the space:




                    • Each via takes up real estate on every layer of the board, which impedes routing efficiency.

                    • IC's often cannot be routed "back-to-back", because the via pads from one IC interfere with the lands of the second IC.

                    • Even if you can make it work, it is considered bad practice to mount IC's (especially BGA's) back-to-back, as it makes reflow soldering (and also subsequent x-ray inspection) more difficult.


                    These problems can be overcome by using HDI techniques (e.g. blind/buried vias, microvias), but this significantly adds to the cost of the boards. Not to mention an increase in design complexity.





                    To compare assembly quotes is easy enough; they only care about how many parts, how many layers, how many reflows. They can quote you for both of these options, before the layout is completed.



                    With the PCB quotes, on the other hand, it can be difficult to get a board house to make estimates unless you have a completed design to review. I would recommend making two mock-ups for yourself to see how much space you predict you'll need. Also figure out your stackup, your required trace/space, etc, and then call your board house. Be polite, ask for favors, and they may be able to give you an estimate on the two designs :)





                    Finally, in my experience, it isn't a good idea to choose double-sided assembly for cost optimization. For size optimization, though, a tight, double-sided multi-layer HDI design can be a great (if more expensive) solution.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered Nov 30 '18 at 18:08









                    bitsmack

                    11.4k73376




                    11.4k73376























                        2














                        You can do your own estimates by using board assembly houses online estimating tools. Example, https://www.screamingcircuits.com/
                        Enter the basics of your project, board size, if you want to create a PL in their requested format they'll even get prices from Digikey for parts (make sure you use Tape/Reel part numbers, or the Digireel part numbers). You can supply your own board, or the tool can use prices (from Sunstone I think), supply your own parts, etc.






                        share|improve this answer


























                          2














                          You can do your own estimates by using board assembly houses online estimating tools. Example, https://www.screamingcircuits.com/
                          Enter the basics of your project, board size, if you want to create a PL in their requested format they'll even get prices from Digikey for parts (make sure you use Tape/Reel part numbers, or the Digireel part numbers). You can supply your own board, or the tool can use prices (from Sunstone I think), supply your own parts, etc.






                          share|improve this answer
























                            2












                            2








                            2






                            You can do your own estimates by using board assembly houses online estimating tools. Example, https://www.screamingcircuits.com/
                            Enter the basics of your project, board size, if you want to create a PL in their requested format they'll even get prices from Digikey for parts (make sure you use Tape/Reel part numbers, or the Digireel part numbers). You can supply your own board, or the tool can use prices (from Sunstone I think), supply your own parts, etc.






                            share|improve this answer












                            You can do your own estimates by using board assembly houses online estimating tools. Example, https://www.screamingcircuits.com/
                            Enter the basics of your project, board size, if you want to create a PL in their requested format they'll even get prices from Digikey for parts (make sure you use Tape/Reel part numbers, or the Digireel part numbers). You can supply your own board, or the tool can use prices (from Sunstone I think), supply your own parts, etc.







                            share|improve this answer












                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer










                            answered Nov 30 '18 at 18:48









                            CrossRoads

                            1,1288




                            1,1288






























                                draft saved

                                draft discarded




















































                                Thanks for contributing an answer to Electrical Engineering Stack Exchange!


                                • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                                But avoid



                                • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                                • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                                Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                                To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.





                                Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.


                                Please pay close attention to the following guidance:


                                • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                                But avoid



                                • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                                • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                                To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                                draft saved


                                draft discarded














                                StackExchange.ready(
                                function () {
                                StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2felectronics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f409771%2fcost-optimization-pcb-area-vs-double-sided-load%23new-answer', 'question_page');
                                }
                                );

                                Post as a guest















                                Required, but never shown





















































                                Required, but never shown














                                Required, but never shown












                                Required, but never shown







                                Required, but never shown

































                                Required, but never shown














                                Required, but never shown












                                Required, but never shown







                                Required, but never shown







                                Popular posts from this blog

                                How to change which sound is reproduced for terminal bell?

                                Can I use Tabulator js library in my java Spring + Thymeleaf project?

                                Title Spacing in Bjornstrup Chapter, Removing Chapter Number From Contents