Composition of a differential map and a smooth map











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In DoCarmo’s Riemannian Geometry book, it is written that if $phi$ is a smooth map from $M$ to $M$, $vin T_pM$, and f is a real-valued smooth map in a neighborhood of $phi(p)$, then we have $(dphi(v)f)phi(p)=v(fcirc phi)(p)$.



In this book, a tangent vector $v$ at $p$ is defined as a mapping of the set of real-valued smooth maps at p to $mathbb R$.



With those definitions and notations, the equality above does not make sense, since for example $(dphi(v)f)$ is already a real number, not a function, so $(dphi(v)f)phi(p)$ is wrong. So what does the author mean?



Appendix: this remark exactly in this form is used in proving $[X,Y](p)=lim_{trightarrow 0}1/ttimes(Y-dphi_t Y)(phi_t(p))$. Hence additionally I could not understand the left side of this equality.










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  • Can you tell on what page and in which paragraph you found this?
    – Ernie060
    Nov 16 at 14:26












  • On page 26, second paragraph
    – Selflearner
    Nov 16 at 14:28






  • 2




    DoCarmo says "$v in T_pM$", but it should be "$v$ a vector field".
    – Aloizio Macedo
    Nov 16 at 14:59










  • @AloizioMacedo as an apparently Brazilian like DoCarmo, your remark is right to the point. Thanks
    – Selflearner
    Nov 16 at 15:02










  • @Selflearner Indeed... I was too focused on the "$vin T_p M$"... Anyway, thanks very much for the question, I learnt something today! + 1
    – Ernie060
    Nov 16 at 15:15

















up vote
2
down vote

favorite












In DoCarmo’s Riemannian Geometry book, it is written that if $phi$ is a smooth map from $M$ to $M$, $vin T_pM$, and f is a real-valued smooth map in a neighborhood of $phi(p)$, then we have $(dphi(v)f)phi(p)=v(fcirc phi)(p)$.



In this book, a tangent vector $v$ at $p$ is defined as a mapping of the set of real-valued smooth maps at p to $mathbb R$.



With those definitions and notations, the equality above does not make sense, since for example $(dphi(v)f)$ is already a real number, not a function, so $(dphi(v)f)phi(p)$ is wrong. So what does the author mean?



Appendix: this remark exactly in this form is used in proving $[X,Y](p)=lim_{trightarrow 0}1/ttimes(Y-dphi_t Y)(phi_t(p))$. Hence additionally I could not understand the left side of this equality.










share|cite|improve this question
























  • Can you tell on what page and in which paragraph you found this?
    – Ernie060
    Nov 16 at 14:26












  • On page 26, second paragraph
    – Selflearner
    Nov 16 at 14:28






  • 2




    DoCarmo says "$v in T_pM$", but it should be "$v$ a vector field".
    – Aloizio Macedo
    Nov 16 at 14:59










  • @AloizioMacedo as an apparently Brazilian like DoCarmo, your remark is right to the point. Thanks
    – Selflearner
    Nov 16 at 15:02










  • @Selflearner Indeed... I was too focused on the "$vin T_p M$"... Anyway, thanks very much for the question, I learnt something today! + 1
    – Ernie060
    Nov 16 at 15:15















up vote
2
down vote

favorite









up vote
2
down vote

favorite











In DoCarmo’s Riemannian Geometry book, it is written that if $phi$ is a smooth map from $M$ to $M$, $vin T_pM$, and f is a real-valued smooth map in a neighborhood of $phi(p)$, then we have $(dphi(v)f)phi(p)=v(fcirc phi)(p)$.



In this book, a tangent vector $v$ at $p$ is defined as a mapping of the set of real-valued smooth maps at p to $mathbb R$.



With those definitions and notations, the equality above does not make sense, since for example $(dphi(v)f)$ is already a real number, not a function, so $(dphi(v)f)phi(p)$ is wrong. So what does the author mean?



Appendix: this remark exactly in this form is used in proving $[X,Y](p)=lim_{trightarrow 0}1/ttimes(Y-dphi_t Y)(phi_t(p))$. Hence additionally I could not understand the left side of this equality.










share|cite|improve this question















In DoCarmo’s Riemannian Geometry book, it is written that if $phi$ is a smooth map from $M$ to $M$, $vin T_pM$, and f is a real-valued smooth map in a neighborhood of $phi(p)$, then we have $(dphi(v)f)phi(p)=v(fcirc phi)(p)$.



In this book, a tangent vector $v$ at $p$ is defined as a mapping of the set of real-valued smooth maps at p to $mathbb R$.



With those definitions and notations, the equality above does not make sense, since for example $(dphi(v)f)$ is already a real number, not a function, so $(dphi(v)f)phi(p)$ is wrong. So what does the author mean?



Appendix: this remark exactly in this form is used in proving $[X,Y](p)=lim_{trightarrow 0}1/ttimes(Y-dphi_t Y)(phi_t(p))$. Hence additionally I could not understand the left side of this equality.







differential-geometry riemannian-geometry smooth-manifolds






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edited Nov 16 at 14:52

























asked Nov 16 at 14:22









Selflearner

377214




377214












  • Can you tell on what page and in which paragraph you found this?
    – Ernie060
    Nov 16 at 14:26












  • On page 26, second paragraph
    – Selflearner
    Nov 16 at 14:28






  • 2




    DoCarmo says "$v in T_pM$", but it should be "$v$ a vector field".
    – Aloizio Macedo
    Nov 16 at 14:59










  • @AloizioMacedo as an apparently Brazilian like DoCarmo, your remark is right to the point. Thanks
    – Selflearner
    Nov 16 at 15:02










  • @Selflearner Indeed... I was too focused on the "$vin T_p M$"... Anyway, thanks very much for the question, I learnt something today! + 1
    – Ernie060
    Nov 16 at 15:15




















  • Can you tell on what page and in which paragraph you found this?
    – Ernie060
    Nov 16 at 14:26












  • On page 26, second paragraph
    – Selflearner
    Nov 16 at 14:28






  • 2




    DoCarmo says "$v in T_pM$", but it should be "$v$ a vector field".
    – Aloizio Macedo
    Nov 16 at 14:59










  • @AloizioMacedo as an apparently Brazilian like DoCarmo, your remark is right to the point. Thanks
    – Selflearner
    Nov 16 at 15:02










  • @Selflearner Indeed... I was too focused on the "$vin T_p M$"... Anyway, thanks very much for the question, I learnt something today! + 1
    – Ernie060
    Nov 16 at 15:15


















Can you tell on what page and in which paragraph you found this?
– Ernie060
Nov 16 at 14:26






Can you tell on what page and in which paragraph you found this?
– Ernie060
Nov 16 at 14:26














On page 26, second paragraph
– Selflearner
Nov 16 at 14:28




On page 26, second paragraph
– Selflearner
Nov 16 at 14:28




2




2




DoCarmo says "$v in T_pM$", but it should be "$v$ a vector field".
– Aloizio Macedo
Nov 16 at 14:59




DoCarmo says "$v in T_pM$", but it should be "$v$ a vector field".
– Aloizio Macedo
Nov 16 at 14:59












@AloizioMacedo as an apparently Brazilian like DoCarmo, your remark is right to the point. Thanks
– Selflearner
Nov 16 at 15:02




@AloizioMacedo as an apparently Brazilian like DoCarmo, your remark is right to the point. Thanks
– Selflearner
Nov 16 at 15:02












@Selflearner Indeed... I was too focused on the "$vin T_p M$"... Anyway, thanks very much for the question, I learnt something today! + 1
– Ernie060
Nov 16 at 15:15






@Selflearner Indeed... I was too focused on the "$vin T_p M$"... Anyway, thanks very much for the question, I learnt something today! + 1
– Ernie060
Nov 16 at 15:15












1 Answer
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You are correct. If $v in T_pM$, the expression $dphi(v) f$ is a real number.



But the expression "$(dphi(v)f)(phi(p))$" has a problem, even if $v$ is a vector field: What is "$dphi(v)$"? This is not necessarily well-defined as a vector field on $M$ if $phi$ is just smooth. Luckily it is in the case that $phi$ is a diffeomorphism. These things also make sense when $phi$ is a local diffeomorphism, but then you have vector fields defined on some open set $U$ and, accordingly, $phi(U)$. (In particular, it makes sense in the context of Lemma 5.5.)



As you mention, DoCarmo later uses the expression in the proof of another proposition:




(...) Accordingly,



$((dvarphi_tY)f)(varphi_t(p))=(Y(f circ varphi_t))(p)$ (...)




(For context, here $varphi_t$ is a local flow.) Therefore, as far as what he seems to be interested in is concerned, there is no problem in correcting his equality by saying that $v$ should be a vector field.



For more information, see the wikipedia section on pushforward of vector fields, for example.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Thanks, I had so much difficulty understanding the meaning of that theorem, even asked a question here but I was looking for an answer like yours
    – Selflearner
    Nov 16 at 16:16











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You are correct. If $v in T_pM$, the expression $dphi(v) f$ is a real number.



But the expression "$(dphi(v)f)(phi(p))$" has a problem, even if $v$ is a vector field: What is "$dphi(v)$"? This is not necessarily well-defined as a vector field on $M$ if $phi$ is just smooth. Luckily it is in the case that $phi$ is a diffeomorphism. These things also make sense when $phi$ is a local diffeomorphism, but then you have vector fields defined on some open set $U$ and, accordingly, $phi(U)$. (In particular, it makes sense in the context of Lemma 5.5.)



As you mention, DoCarmo later uses the expression in the proof of another proposition:




(...) Accordingly,



$((dvarphi_tY)f)(varphi_t(p))=(Y(f circ varphi_t))(p)$ (...)




(For context, here $varphi_t$ is a local flow.) Therefore, as far as what he seems to be interested in is concerned, there is no problem in correcting his equality by saying that $v$ should be a vector field.



For more information, see the wikipedia section on pushforward of vector fields, for example.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Thanks, I had so much difficulty understanding the meaning of that theorem, even asked a question here but I was looking for an answer like yours
    – Selflearner
    Nov 16 at 16:16















up vote
1
down vote



accepted










You are correct. If $v in T_pM$, the expression $dphi(v) f$ is a real number.



But the expression "$(dphi(v)f)(phi(p))$" has a problem, even if $v$ is a vector field: What is "$dphi(v)$"? This is not necessarily well-defined as a vector field on $M$ if $phi$ is just smooth. Luckily it is in the case that $phi$ is a diffeomorphism. These things also make sense when $phi$ is a local diffeomorphism, but then you have vector fields defined on some open set $U$ and, accordingly, $phi(U)$. (In particular, it makes sense in the context of Lemma 5.5.)



As you mention, DoCarmo later uses the expression in the proof of another proposition:




(...) Accordingly,



$((dvarphi_tY)f)(varphi_t(p))=(Y(f circ varphi_t))(p)$ (...)




(For context, here $varphi_t$ is a local flow.) Therefore, as far as what he seems to be interested in is concerned, there is no problem in correcting his equality by saying that $v$ should be a vector field.



For more information, see the wikipedia section on pushforward of vector fields, for example.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Thanks, I had so much difficulty understanding the meaning of that theorem, even asked a question here but I was looking for an answer like yours
    – Selflearner
    Nov 16 at 16:16













up vote
1
down vote



accepted







up vote
1
down vote



accepted






You are correct. If $v in T_pM$, the expression $dphi(v) f$ is a real number.



But the expression "$(dphi(v)f)(phi(p))$" has a problem, even if $v$ is a vector field: What is "$dphi(v)$"? This is not necessarily well-defined as a vector field on $M$ if $phi$ is just smooth. Luckily it is in the case that $phi$ is a diffeomorphism. These things also make sense when $phi$ is a local diffeomorphism, but then you have vector fields defined on some open set $U$ and, accordingly, $phi(U)$. (In particular, it makes sense in the context of Lemma 5.5.)



As you mention, DoCarmo later uses the expression in the proof of another proposition:




(...) Accordingly,



$((dvarphi_tY)f)(varphi_t(p))=(Y(f circ varphi_t))(p)$ (...)




(For context, here $varphi_t$ is a local flow.) Therefore, as far as what he seems to be interested in is concerned, there is no problem in correcting his equality by saying that $v$ should be a vector field.



For more information, see the wikipedia section on pushforward of vector fields, for example.






share|cite|improve this answer












You are correct. If $v in T_pM$, the expression $dphi(v) f$ is a real number.



But the expression "$(dphi(v)f)(phi(p))$" has a problem, even if $v$ is a vector field: What is "$dphi(v)$"? This is not necessarily well-defined as a vector field on $M$ if $phi$ is just smooth. Luckily it is in the case that $phi$ is a diffeomorphism. These things also make sense when $phi$ is a local diffeomorphism, but then you have vector fields defined on some open set $U$ and, accordingly, $phi(U)$. (In particular, it makes sense in the context of Lemma 5.5.)



As you mention, DoCarmo later uses the expression in the proof of another proposition:




(...) Accordingly,



$((dvarphi_tY)f)(varphi_t(p))=(Y(f circ varphi_t))(p)$ (...)




(For context, here $varphi_t$ is a local flow.) Therefore, as far as what he seems to be interested in is concerned, there is no problem in correcting his equality by saying that $v$ should be a vector field.



For more information, see the wikipedia section on pushforward of vector fields, for example.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered Nov 16 at 15:37









Aloizio Macedo

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  • Thanks, I had so much difficulty understanding the meaning of that theorem, even asked a question here but I was looking for an answer like yours
    – Selflearner
    Nov 16 at 16:16


















  • Thanks, I had so much difficulty understanding the meaning of that theorem, even asked a question here but I was looking for an answer like yours
    – Selflearner
    Nov 16 at 16:16
















Thanks, I had so much difficulty understanding the meaning of that theorem, even asked a question here but I was looking for an answer like yours
– Selflearner
Nov 16 at 16:16




Thanks, I had so much difficulty understanding the meaning of that theorem, even asked a question here but I was looking for an answer like yours
– Selflearner
Nov 16 at 16:16


















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