Uncertainty principle for a sitting person
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10
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If a person is sitting on a chair his momentum is zero and his uncertainty in position should be infinite. But we can obviously position him at most within few chair lengths.
What am I missing? Do we have to invoke earth's motion, motion of the galaxy etc. to resolve the issue?
heisenberg-uncertainty-principle
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up vote
10
down vote
favorite
If a person is sitting on a chair his momentum is zero and his uncertainty in position should be infinite. But we can obviously position him at most within few chair lengths.
What am I missing? Do we have to invoke earth's motion, motion of the galaxy etc. to resolve the issue?
heisenberg-uncertainty-principle
4
I wonder if the quantum phenomena can still be observed in such a large scale system...
– K_inverse
20 hours ago
1
@K_inverse Yes, they can. But as soon as you try that, you'd realize neither the momentum nor the position is perfectly localized, so the premise of the question is false - you decidedly don't have "zero momentum" when sitting on a chair.
– Luaan
10 hours ago
If it is a rocking chair you don't have zero uncertainty in the position even at macroscopic level :-)
– Francesco
10 hours ago
4
You're confusing the momentum with the uncertainty in momentum.
– mkrieger1
8 hours ago
3
Since I unexpectedly gained huge momentum very unexpectedly while sitting on an IKEA chair, I have never again felt any certainty about my position in the universe.
– Pavel
2 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
up vote
10
down vote
favorite
up vote
10
down vote
favorite
If a person is sitting on a chair his momentum is zero and his uncertainty in position should be infinite. But we can obviously position him at most within few chair lengths.
What am I missing? Do we have to invoke earth's motion, motion of the galaxy etc. to resolve the issue?
heisenberg-uncertainty-principle
If a person is sitting on a chair his momentum is zero and his uncertainty in position should be infinite. But we can obviously position him at most within few chair lengths.
What am I missing? Do we have to invoke earth's motion, motion of the galaxy etc. to resolve the issue?
heisenberg-uncertainty-principle
heisenberg-uncertainty-principle
asked 21 hours ago
Fakrudeen
292310
292310
4
I wonder if the quantum phenomena can still be observed in such a large scale system...
– K_inverse
20 hours ago
1
@K_inverse Yes, they can. But as soon as you try that, you'd realize neither the momentum nor the position is perfectly localized, so the premise of the question is false - you decidedly don't have "zero momentum" when sitting on a chair.
– Luaan
10 hours ago
If it is a rocking chair you don't have zero uncertainty in the position even at macroscopic level :-)
– Francesco
10 hours ago
4
You're confusing the momentum with the uncertainty in momentum.
– mkrieger1
8 hours ago
3
Since I unexpectedly gained huge momentum very unexpectedly while sitting on an IKEA chair, I have never again felt any certainty about my position in the universe.
– Pavel
2 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
4
I wonder if the quantum phenomena can still be observed in such a large scale system...
– K_inverse
20 hours ago
1
@K_inverse Yes, they can. But as soon as you try that, you'd realize neither the momentum nor the position is perfectly localized, so the premise of the question is false - you decidedly don't have "zero momentum" when sitting on a chair.
– Luaan
10 hours ago
If it is a rocking chair you don't have zero uncertainty in the position even at macroscopic level :-)
– Francesco
10 hours ago
4
You're confusing the momentum with the uncertainty in momentum.
– mkrieger1
8 hours ago
3
Since I unexpectedly gained huge momentum very unexpectedly while sitting on an IKEA chair, I have never again felt any certainty about my position in the universe.
– Pavel
2 hours ago
4
4
I wonder if the quantum phenomena can still be observed in such a large scale system...
– K_inverse
20 hours ago
I wonder if the quantum phenomena can still be observed in such a large scale system...
– K_inverse
20 hours ago
1
1
@K_inverse Yes, they can. But as soon as you try that, you'd realize neither the momentum nor the position is perfectly localized, so the premise of the question is false - you decidedly don't have "zero momentum" when sitting on a chair.
– Luaan
10 hours ago
@K_inverse Yes, they can. But as soon as you try that, you'd realize neither the momentum nor the position is perfectly localized, so the premise of the question is false - you decidedly don't have "zero momentum" when sitting on a chair.
– Luaan
10 hours ago
If it is a rocking chair you don't have zero uncertainty in the position even at macroscopic level :-)
– Francesco
10 hours ago
If it is a rocking chair you don't have zero uncertainty in the position even at macroscopic level :-)
– Francesco
10 hours ago
4
4
You're confusing the momentum with the uncertainty in momentum.
– mkrieger1
8 hours ago
You're confusing the momentum with the uncertainty in momentum.
– mkrieger1
8 hours ago
3
3
Since I unexpectedly gained huge momentum very unexpectedly while sitting on an IKEA chair, I have never again felt any certainty about my position in the universe.
– Pavel
2 hours ago
Since I unexpectedly gained huge momentum very unexpectedly while sitting on an IKEA chair, I have never again felt any certainty about my position in the universe.
– Pavel
2 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
up vote
59
down vote
If a person is sitting on a chair his momentum is zero...
How close to zero?
The uncertainty principle says that if $Delta x$ is the uncertainty in position and $Delta p$ is the uncertainty in momentum, then $Delta x,Delta psim hbar$. So, consider an object with the mass of a person, say $M = 70$ kg. Suppose the uncertainty in this object's position is roughly the size of a proton, say $Delta x = 10^{-15}$ meters. The uncertainty principle says that the uncertainty in momentum must be
$$
Delta psimfrac{hbar}{Delta x}approxfrac{1 times 10^{-34}text{ meter}^2text{ kg / second}}{10^{-15}text{ meter}}approx 1times 10^{-19}text{ meter kg / second},
$$
so the uncertainty in the object's velocity is
$$
Delta v=frac{Delta p}{M}approx frac{approx 1times 10^{-19}text{ meter kg / second}}{text{70 kg}}sim 1times 10^{-21}text{ meter / second}.
$$
In other words, the uncertainty in the person's velocity would be roughly one proton-radius per month.
This shows that the uncertainties in a person's position and momentum can both be zero as far as we can ever hope to tell, and this is not at all in conflict with the uncertainty principle.
excellent, if I may say so.
– niels nielsen
17 hours ago
Reminds me that science is closing in on producing quantum effects on the macro scale. We're a ways off from a human, but a 120 carbon atom bucky ball? Smashed. (A coherent beam of humans would be an interesting engineering challenge...)
– Draco18s
7 hours ago
1
@Draco18s Isn't that a marching column?
– Pilchard123
6 hours ago
@Pilchard123 Yeah, but they don't maintain their momentum uncertainties when walking through double doors.
– Draco18s
5 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
21
down vote
If we pretend that person is a quantum mechanical particle of mass $m=75$ kg and we localize him in a box of length $L=1$ m, then the resulting uncertainty in his velocity would be about one Planck length per second. Are you sure you know his velocity to within one Planck length per second?
Applying quantum mechanical principles to classical systems is always a recipe for disaster, but this underlying point is a good one - in macroscopic systems, the uncertainty principle implies fundamental uncertainties which are so small as to be completely meaningless from an observational point of view. If you were moving at a planck length per second for a hundred quadrillion years, you'd be about halfway across a hydrogen atom.
5
I tried doing the experiment you suggest in your last sentence but the damned hydrogen atom wouldn't sit still and I gave up after a couple of weeks.
– David Richerby
4 hours ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
59
down vote
If a person is sitting on a chair his momentum is zero...
How close to zero?
The uncertainty principle says that if $Delta x$ is the uncertainty in position and $Delta p$ is the uncertainty in momentum, then $Delta x,Delta psim hbar$. So, consider an object with the mass of a person, say $M = 70$ kg. Suppose the uncertainty in this object's position is roughly the size of a proton, say $Delta x = 10^{-15}$ meters. The uncertainty principle says that the uncertainty in momentum must be
$$
Delta psimfrac{hbar}{Delta x}approxfrac{1 times 10^{-34}text{ meter}^2text{ kg / second}}{10^{-15}text{ meter}}approx 1times 10^{-19}text{ meter kg / second},
$$
so the uncertainty in the object's velocity is
$$
Delta v=frac{Delta p}{M}approx frac{approx 1times 10^{-19}text{ meter kg / second}}{text{70 kg}}sim 1times 10^{-21}text{ meter / second}.
$$
In other words, the uncertainty in the person's velocity would be roughly one proton-radius per month.
This shows that the uncertainties in a person's position and momentum can both be zero as far as we can ever hope to tell, and this is not at all in conflict with the uncertainty principle.
excellent, if I may say so.
– niels nielsen
17 hours ago
Reminds me that science is closing in on producing quantum effects on the macro scale. We're a ways off from a human, but a 120 carbon atom bucky ball? Smashed. (A coherent beam of humans would be an interesting engineering challenge...)
– Draco18s
7 hours ago
1
@Draco18s Isn't that a marching column?
– Pilchard123
6 hours ago
@Pilchard123 Yeah, but they don't maintain their momentum uncertainties when walking through double doors.
– Draco18s
5 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
59
down vote
If a person is sitting on a chair his momentum is zero...
How close to zero?
The uncertainty principle says that if $Delta x$ is the uncertainty in position and $Delta p$ is the uncertainty in momentum, then $Delta x,Delta psim hbar$. So, consider an object with the mass of a person, say $M = 70$ kg. Suppose the uncertainty in this object's position is roughly the size of a proton, say $Delta x = 10^{-15}$ meters. The uncertainty principle says that the uncertainty in momentum must be
$$
Delta psimfrac{hbar}{Delta x}approxfrac{1 times 10^{-34}text{ meter}^2text{ kg / second}}{10^{-15}text{ meter}}approx 1times 10^{-19}text{ meter kg / second},
$$
so the uncertainty in the object's velocity is
$$
Delta v=frac{Delta p}{M}approx frac{approx 1times 10^{-19}text{ meter kg / second}}{text{70 kg}}sim 1times 10^{-21}text{ meter / second}.
$$
In other words, the uncertainty in the person's velocity would be roughly one proton-radius per month.
This shows that the uncertainties in a person's position and momentum can both be zero as far as we can ever hope to tell, and this is not at all in conflict with the uncertainty principle.
excellent, if I may say so.
– niels nielsen
17 hours ago
Reminds me that science is closing in on producing quantum effects on the macro scale. We're a ways off from a human, but a 120 carbon atom bucky ball? Smashed. (A coherent beam of humans would be an interesting engineering challenge...)
– Draco18s
7 hours ago
1
@Draco18s Isn't that a marching column?
– Pilchard123
6 hours ago
@Pilchard123 Yeah, but they don't maintain their momentum uncertainties when walking through double doors.
– Draco18s
5 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
59
down vote
up vote
59
down vote
If a person is sitting on a chair his momentum is zero...
How close to zero?
The uncertainty principle says that if $Delta x$ is the uncertainty in position and $Delta p$ is the uncertainty in momentum, then $Delta x,Delta psim hbar$. So, consider an object with the mass of a person, say $M = 70$ kg. Suppose the uncertainty in this object's position is roughly the size of a proton, say $Delta x = 10^{-15}$ meters. The uncertainty principle says that the uncertainty in momentum must be
$$
Delta psimfrac{hbar}{Delta x}approxfrac{1 times 10^{-34}text{ meter}^2text{ kg / second}}{10^{-15}text{ meter}}approx 1times 10^{-19}text{ meter kg / second},
$$
so the uncertainty in the object's velocity is
$$
Delta v=frac{Delta p}{M}approx frac{approx 1times 10^{-19}text{ meter kg / second}}{text{70 kg}}sim 1times 10^{-21}text{ meter / second}.
$$
In other words, the uncertainty in the person's velocity would be roughly one proton-radius per month.
This shows that the uncertainties in a person's position and momentum can both be zero as far as we can ever hope to tell, and this is not at all in conflict with the uncertainty principle.
If a person is sitting on a chair his momentum is zero...
How close to zero?
The uncertainty principle says that if $Delta x$ is the uncertainty in position and $Delta p$ is the uncertainty in momentum, then $Delta x,Delta psim hbar$. So, consider an object with the mass of a person, say $M = 70$ kg. Suppose the uncertainty in this object's position is roughly the size of a proton, say $Delta x = 10^{-15}$ meters. The uncertainty principle says that the uncertainty in momentum must be
$$
Delta psimfrac{hbar}{Delta x}approxfrac{1 times 10^{-34}text{ meter}^2text{ kg / second}}{10^{-15}text{ meter}}approx 1times 10^{-19}text{ meter kg / second},
$$
so the uncertainty in the object's velocity is
$$
Delta v=frac{Delta p}{M}approx frac{approx 1times 10^{-19}text{ meter kg / second}}{text{70 kg}}sim 1times 10^{-21}text{ meter / second}.
$$
In other words, the uncertainty in the person's velocity would be roughly one proton-radius per month.
This shows that the uncertainties in a person's position and momentum can both be zero as far as we can ever hope to tell, and this is not at all in conflict with the uncertainty principle.
edited 20 hours ago
answered 20 hours ago
Dan Yand
1,922115
1,922115
excellent, if I may say so.
– niels nielsen
17 hours ago
Reminds me that science is closing in on producing quantum effects on the macro scale. We're a ways off from a human, but a 120 carbon atom bucky ball? Smashed. (A coherent beam of humans would be an interesting engineering challenge...)
– Draco18s
7 hours ago
1
@Draco18s Isn't that a marching column?
– Pilchard123
6 hours ago
@Pilchard123 Yeah, but they don't maintain their momentum uncertainties when walking through double doors.
– Draco18s
5 hours ago
add a comment |
excellent, if I may say so.
– niels nielsen
17 hours ago
Reminds me that science is closing in on producing quantum effects on the macro scale. We're a ways off from a human, but a 120 carbon atom bucky ball? Smashed. (A coherent beam of humans would be an interesting engineering challenge...)
– Draco18s
7 hours ago
1
@Draco18s Isn't that a marching column?
– Pilchard123
6 hours ago
@Pilchard123 Yeah, but they don't maintain their momentum uncertainties when walking through double doors.
– Draco18s
5 hours ago
excellent, if I may say so.
– niels nielsen
17 hours ago
excellent, if I may say so.
– niels nielsen
17 hours ago
Reminds me that science is closing in on producing quantum effects on the macro scale. We're a ways off from a human, but a 120 carbon atom bucky ball? Smashed. (A coherent beam of humans would be an interesting engineering challenge...)
– Draco18s
7 hours ago
Reminds me that science is closing in on producing quantum effects on the macro scale. We're a ways off from a human, but a 120 carbon atom bucky ball? Smashed. (A coherent beam of humans would be an interesting engineering challenge...)
– Draco18s
7 hours ago
1
1
@Draco18s Isn't that a marching column?
– Pilchard123
6 hours ago
@Draco18s Isn't that a marching column?
– Pilchard123
6 hours ago
@Pilchard123 Yeah, but they don't maintain their momentum uncertainties when walking through double doors.
– Draco18s
5 hours ago
@Pilchard123 Yeah, but they don't maintain their momentum uncertainties when walking through double doors.
– Draco18s
5 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
21
down vote
If we pretend that person is a quantum mechanical particle of mass $m=75$ kg and we localize him in a box of length $L=1$ m, then the resulting uncertainty in his velocity would be about one Planck length per second. Are you sure you know his velocity to within one Planck length per second?
Applying quantum mechanical principles to classical systems is always a recipe for disaster, but this underlying point is a good one - in macroscopic systems, the uncertainty principle implies fundamental uncertainties which are so small as to be completely meaningless from an observational point of view. If you were moving at a planck length per second for a hundred quadrillion years, you'd be about halfway across a hydrogen atom.
5
I tried doing the experiment you suggest in your last sentence but the damned hydrogen atom wouldn't sit still and I gave up after a couple of weeks.
– David Richerby
4 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
21
down vote
If we pretend that person is a quantum mechanical particle of mass $m=75$ kg and we localize him in a box of length $L=1$ m, then the resulting uncertainty in his velocity would be about one Planck length per second. Are you sure you know his velocity to within one Planck length per second?
Applying quantum mechanical principles to classical systems is always a recipe for disaster, but this underlying point is a good one - in macroscopic systems, the uncertainty principle implies fundamental uncertainties which are so small as to be completely meaningless from an observational point of view. If you were moving at a planck length per second for a hundred quadrillion years, you'd be about halfway across a hydrogen atom.
5
I tried doing the experiment you suggest in your last sentence but the damned hydrogen atom wouldn't sit still and I gave up after a couple of weeks.
– David Richerby
4 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
21
down vote
up vote
21
down vote
If we pretend that person is a quantum mechanical particle of mass $m=75$ kg and we localize him in a box of length $L=1$ m, then the resulting uncertainty in his velocity would be about one Planck length per second. Are you sure you know his velocity to within one Planck length per second?
Applying quantum mechanical principles to classical systems is always a recipe for disaster, but this underlying point is a good one - in macroscopic systems, the uncertainty principle implies fundamental uncertainties which are so small as to be completely meaningless from an observational point of view. If you were moving at a planck length per second for a hundred quadrillion years, you'd be about halfway across a hydrogen atom.
If we pretend that person is a quantum mechanical particle of mass $m=75$ kg and we localize him in a box of length $L=1$ m, then the resulting uncertainty in his velocity would be about one Planck length per second. Are you sure you know his velocity to within one Planck length per second?
Applying quantum mechanical principles to classical systems is always a recipe for disaster, but this underlying point is a good one - in macroscopic systems, the uncertainty principle implies fundamental uncertainties which are so small as to be completely meaningless from an observational point of view. If you were moving at a planck length per second for a hundred quadrillion years, you'd be about halfway across a hydrogen atom.
answered 20 hours ago
J. Murray
6,5612622
6,5612622
5
I tried doing the experiment you suggest in your last sentence but the damned hydrogen atom wouldn't sit still and I gave up after a couple of weeks.
– David Richerby
4 hours ago
add a comment |
5
I tried doing the experiment you suggest in your last sentence but the damned hydrogen atom wouldn't sit still and I gave up after a couple of weeks.
– David Richerby
4 hours ago
5
5
I tried doing the experiment you suggest in your last sentence but the damned hydrogen atom wouldn't sit still and I gave up after a couple of weeks.
– David Richerby
4 hours ago
I tried doing the experiment you suggest in your last sentence but the damned hydrogen atom wouldn't sit still and I gave up after a couple of weeks.
– David Richerby
4 hours ago
add a comment |
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4
I wonder if the quantum phenomena can still be observed in such a large scale system...
– K_inverse
20 hours ago
1
@K_inverse Yes, they can. But as soon as you try that, you'd realize neither the momentum nor the position is perfectly localized, so the premise of the question is false - you decidedly don't have "zero momentum" when sitting on a chair.
– Luaan
10 hours ago
If it is a rocking chair you don't have zero uncertainty in the position even at macroscopic level :-)
– Francesco
10 hours ago
4
You're confusing the momentum with the uncertainty in momentum.
– mkrieger1
8 hours ago
3
Since I unexpectedly gained huge momentum very unexpectedly while sitting on an IKEA chair, I have never again felt any certainty about my position in the universe.
– Pavel
2 hours ago