Did hominids and non-avian dinosaurs ever coexist?
Although the extinction of the non-avian dinosaurs is dated at ~66 million years ago there are a number of purported cave drawings that I've found online that (if verified and interpreted in a certain way!) could suggest that hominids and non-avian dinosaurs were present on the Earth at the same time.
One debunked case of human-dinosaur interaction can been found in this question on 'human footprints' found alongside dinosaur footprints.
This website (and another site) shows a number of examples of cave paintings of what is purported to be dinosaurs. It's easy to see how early cave painters could have exaggerated anatomical features to represent an extant animal in some rudimentary form and make the animal look like what would appear to us as a dinosaur.
The depiction of dragons in mythology and folklore (see here and here) is well documented, but the earliest references to these don't span much further back than 5000 years ago. Although zoomorphic depictions of man-animals appear as far back as 35,000 years, see here, I'm unsure whether other figurative representations of animals were around at the time i.e. to explain why dinosaur paintings may appear in caves.
Furthermore, in the New World, there were many large mammals that rapidly became extinct as a result of fast human colonization (see Jared Diamond's book Gun's, Germs and Steel), some of which were painted in caves.
Did non-avian dinosaurs and hominids overlap in time?
evolution young-earth-creationism paleontology
edited Jan 8 at 14:28
Persistence
1033
asked Jan 7 at 10:09
bondonkbondonk
389126
add a comment |
Although the extinction of the non-avian dinosaurs is dated at ~66 million years ago there are a number of purported cave drawings that I've found online that (if verified and interpreted in a certain way!) could suggest that hominids and non-avian dinosaurs were present on the Earth at the same time.
One debunked case of human-dinosaur interaction can been found in this question on 'human footprints' found alongside dinosaur footprints.
This website (and another site) shows a number of examples of cave paintings of what is purported to be dinosaurs. It's easy to see how early cave painters could have exaggerated anatomical features to represent an extant animal in some rudimentary form and make the animal look like what would appear to us as a dinosaur.
The depiction of dragons in mythology and folklore (see here and here) is well documented, but the earliest references to these don't span much further back than 5000 years ago. Although zoomorphic depictions of man-animals appear as far back as 35,000 years, see here, I'm unsure whether other figurative representations of animals were around at the time i.e. to explain why dinosaur paintings may appear in caves.
Furthermore, in the New World, there were many large mammals that rapidly became extinct as a result of fast human colonization (see Jared Diamond's book Gun's, Germs and Steel), some of which were painted in caves.
Did non-avian dinosaurs and hominids overlap in time?
evolution young-earth-creationism paleontology
edited Jan 8 at 14:28
Persistence
1033
asked Jan 7 at 10:09
bondonkbondonk
389126
3
Maybe this question should be rephrased "Is it possible than some species of non-avian dinosaur managed to persist as a 'living fossil' until 100,000 years ago"? It is almost impossible to prove a negative, so "Yes". Further, as proof of possibility, the Coelacanth and the Wollemi Pine survived, to surprise modern scientists. This comment should not be read as the author thinking that this is likely, merely possible. Further, had it happened, I would expect the living fossil to be a small creature similar to, say, a quail with a tail ... but not, taxonomically, of the aves.
– nigel222
Jan 8 at 19:41
related article: "More “dinosaur” and “pterosaur” rock art that isn ’t" digitalcommons.uncfsu.edu/bio_wp/2
– bondonk
Jan 10 at 11:50
2
@nigel222 - Its "possible" that the molecules around me right now could coalesce into a functional living T-Rex through simple Brownian motion. This is not a real-world helpful fact though, and a question about T-Rex's possibly running around my building should not be answered "Yes" on that basis.
– T.E.D.
Jan 10 at 19:46
1
@T.E.D., what evidence do you have for Brownian motion producing a T-Rex?
– elliot svensson
Jan 10 at 22:29
2
@nigel222 That still misses the core premise of the question. It should be something like: Were these pretroglyphs intended to represent dinosaurs and if so, is that proof that humans and dinosaurs coexisted.
– JimmyJames
Jan 11 at 17:45
add a comment |
Although the extinction of the non-avian dinosaurs is dated at ~66 million years ago there are a number of purported cave drawings that I've found online that (if verified and interpreted in a certain way!) could suggest that hominids and non-avian dinosaurs were present on the Earth at the same time.
One debunked case of human-dinosaur interaction can been found in this question on 'human footprints' found alongside dinosaur footprints.
This website (and another site) shows a number of examples of cave paintings of what is purported to be dinosaurs. It's easy to see how early cave painters could have exaggerated anatomical features to represent an extant animal in some rudimentary form and make the animal look like what would appear to us as a dinosaur.
The depiction of dragons in mythology and folklore (see here and here) is well documented, but the earliest references to these don't span much further back than 5000 years ago. Although zoomorphic depictions of man-animals appear as far back as 35,000 years, see here, I'm unsure whether other figurative representations of animals were around at the time i.e. to explain why dinosaur paintings may appear in caves.
Furthermore, in the New World, there were many large mammals that rapidly became extinct as a result of fast human colonization (see Jared Diamond's book Gun's, Germs and Steel), some of which were painted in caves.
Did non-avian dinosaurs and hominids overlap in time?
evolution young-earth-creationism paleontology
edited Jan 8 at 14:28
Persistence
1033
asked Jan 7 at 10:09
bondonkbondonk
389126
Although the extinction of the non-avian dinosaurs is dated at ~66 million years ago there are a number of purported cave drawings that I've found online that (if verified and interpreted in a certain way!) could suggest that hominids and non-avian dinosaurs were present on the Earth at the same time.
One debunked case of human-dinosaur interaction can been found in this question on 'human footprints' found alongside dinosaur footprints.
This website (and another site) shows a number of examples of cave paintings of what is purported to be dinosaurs. It's easy to see how early cave painters could have exaggerated anatomical features to represent an extant animal in some rudimentary form and make the animal look like what would appear to us as a dinosaur.
The depiction of dragons in mythology and folklore (see here and here) is well documented, but the earliest references to these don't span much further back than 5000 years ago. Although zoomorphic depictions of man-animals appear as far back as 35,000 years, see here, I'm unsure whether other figurative representations of animals were around at the time i.e. to explain why dinosaur paintings may appear in caves.
Furthermore, in the New World, there were many large mammals that rapidly became extinct as a result of fast human colonization (see Jared Diamond's book Gun's, Germs and Steel), some of which were painted in caves.
Did non-avian dinosaurs and hominids overlap in time?
evolution young-earth-creationism paleontology
evolution young-earth-creationism paleontology
edited Jan 8 at 14:28
Persistence
1033
asked Jan 7 at 10:09
bondonkbondonk
389126
edited Jan 8 at 14:28
Persistence
1033
asked Jan 7 at 10:09
bondonkbondonk
389126
edited Jan 8 at 14:28
Persistence
1033
edited Jan 8 at 14:28
Persistence
1033
edited Jan 8 at 14:28
Persistence
1033
1033
asked Jan 7 at 10:09
bondonkbondonk
389126
asked Jan 7 at 10:09
bondonkbondonk
389126
asked Jan 7 at 10:09
bondonkbondonk
389126
389126
3
Maybe this question should be rephrased "Is it possible than some species of non-avian dinosaur managed to persist as a 'living fossil' until 100,000 years ago"? It is almost impossible to prove a negative, so "Yes". Further, as proof of possibility, the Coelacanth and the Wollemi Pine survived, to surprise modern scientists. This comment should not be read as the author thinking that this is likely, merely possible. Further, had it happened, I would expect the living fossil to be a small creature similar to, say, a quail with a tail ... but not, taxonomically, of the aves.
– nigel222
Jan 8 at 19:41
related article: "More “dinosaur” and “pterosaur” rock art that isn ’t" digitalcommons.uncfsu.edu/bio_wp/2
– bondonk
Jan 10 at 11:50
2
@nigel222 - Its "possible" that the molecules around me right now could coalesce into a functional living T-Rex through simple Brownian motion. This is not a real-world helpful fact though, and a question about T-Rex's possibly running around my building should not be answered "Yes" on that basis.
– T.E.D.
Jan 10 at 19:46
1
@T.E.D., what evidence do you have for Brownian motion producing a T-Rex?
– elliot svensson
Jan 10 at 22:29
2
@nigel222 That still misses the core premise of the question. It should be something like: Were these pretroglyphs intended to represent dinosaurs and if so, is that proof that humans and dinosaurs coexisted.
– JimmyJames
Jan 11 at 17:45
add a comment |
3
Maybe this question should be rephrased "Is it possible than some species of non-avian dinosaur managed to persist as a 'living fossil' until 100,000 years ago"? It is almost impossible to prove a negative, so "Yes". Further, as proof of possibility, the Coelacanth and the Wollemi Pine survived, to surprise modern scientists. This comment should not be read as the author thinking that this is likely, merely possible. Further, had it happened, I would expect the living fossil to be a small creature similar to, say, a quail with a tail ... but not, taxonomically, of the aves.
– nigel222
Jan 8 at 19:41
related article: "More “dinosaur” and “pterosaur” rock art that isn ’t" digitalcommons.uncfsu.edu/bio_wp/2
– bondonk
Jan 10 at 11:50
2
@nigel222 - Its "possible" that the molecules around me right now could coalesce into a functional living T-Rex through simple Brownian motion. This is not a real-world helpful fact though, and a question about T-Rex's possibly running around my building should not be answered "Yes" on that basis.
– T.E.D.
Jan 10 at 19:46
1
@T.E.D., what evidence do you have for Brownian motion producing a T-Rex?
– elliot svensson
Jan 10 at 22:29
2
@nigel222 That still misses the core premise of the question. It should be something like: Were these pretroglyphs intended to represent dinosaurs and if so, is that proof that humans and dinosaurs coexisted.
– JimmyJames
Jan 11 at 17:45
3
3
Maybe this question should be rephrased "Is it possible than some species of non-avian dinosaur managed to persist as a 'living fossil' until 100,000 years ago"? It is almost impossible to prove a negative, so "Yes". Further, as proof of possibility, the Coelacanth and the Wollemi Pine survived, to surprise modern scientists. This comment should not be read as the author thinking that this is likely, merely possible. Further, had it happened, I would expect the living fossil to be a small creature similar to, say, a quail with a tail ... but not, taxonomically, of the aves.
– nigel222
Jan 8 at 19:41
Maybe this question should be rephrased "Is it possible than some species of non-avian dinosaur managed to persist as a 'living fossil' until 100,000 years ago"? It is almost impossible to prove a negative, so "Yes". Further, as proof of possibility, the Coelacanth and the Wollemi Pine survived, to surprise modern scientists. This comment should not be read as the author thinking that this is likely, merely possible. Further, had it happened, I would expect the living fossil to be a small creature similar to, say, a quail with a tail ... but not, taxonomically, of the aves.
– nigel222
Jan 8 at 19:41
related article: "More “dinosaur” and “pterosaur” rock art that isn ’t" digitalcommons.uncfsu.edu/bio_wp/2
– bondonk
Jan 10 at 11:50
related article: "More “dinosaur” and “pterosaur” rock art that isn ’t" digitalcommons.uncfsu.edu/bio_wp/2
– bondonk
Jan 10 at 11:50
2
2
@nigel222 - Its "possible" that the molecules around me right now could coalesce into a functional living T-Rex through simple Brownian motion. This is not a real-world helpful fact though, and a question about T-Rex's possibly running around my building should not be answered "Yes" on that basis.
– T.E.D.
Jan 10 at 19:46
@nigel222 - Its "possible" that the molecules around me right now could coalesce into a functional living T-Rex through simple Brownian motion. This is not a real-world helpful fact though, and a question about T-Rex's possibly running around my building should not be answered "Yes" on that basis.
– T.E.D.
Jan 10 at 19:46
1
1
@T.E.D., what evidence do you have for Brownian motion producing a T-Rex?
– elliot svensson
Jan 10 at 22:29
@T.E.D., what evidence do you have for Brownian motion producing a T-Rex?
– elliot svensson
Jan 10 at 22:29
2
2
@nigel222 That still misses the core premise of the question. It should be something like: Were these pretroglyphs intended to represent dinosaurs and if so, is that proof that humans and dinosaurs coexisted.
– JimmyJames
Jan 11 at 17:45
@nigel222 That still misses the core premise of the question. It should be something like: Were these pretroglyphs intended to represent dinosaurs and if so, is that proof that humans and dinosaurs coexisted.
– JimmyJames
Jan 11 at 17:45
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
No.
Non-avian dinosaurs were extinct about 65 million years ago, as the most recent dinosaur bone was directly dated as being 64.8 ± 0.9 Ma old.
The second dinosaur bone sample from Paleocene strata just above the Cretaceous-Paleogene interface yielded a Paleocene U-Pb date of 64.8 ± 0.9 Ma, consistent with palynologic, paleomagnetic, and fossil-mammal biochronologic data.
Direct U-Pb dating of Cretaceous and Paleocene dinosaur bones, San Juan Basin, New Mexico
The fossils we have found so far are incompatible with non-avian dinosaurs still being in existence after that time frame.
Hominids used to refer to the homo genus after separation from all other species of non-human apes, thus from after the separation from Pan Troglodytes (chimpanzees), but now the word hominins is used for that and hominids includes many other species of apes such as gorillas.
So, assuming from the rest of your question that we should look at hominins, there is a direct measurement of the age of the split between chimpanzees and homo through genes and it is 10-13 Ma ago:
The estimated date of the divergence between Pan (chimpanzee) and Homo is 10–13 MYBP
Molecular Timing of Primate Divergences as Estimated by Two Nonprimate Calibration Points
Thus hominins would not begin their existence until 50 million years after dinosaurs became extinct.
answered Jan 7 at 12:16
Sklivvz♦Sklivvz
63.4k25294410
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Oddthinking♦
Jan 7 at 21:54
2
And even if you went by "hominids", the speciation of the Hominidae line was 15-20 MYBP, so even accounting for all the great apes, you wouldn't get within 40 million years of non-avian dinosaurs.
– ShadowRanger
Jan 10 at 2:58
1
Unfortunately this answer suffers from the same logical error as the question: the assumption that the only way these drawings could have been intended to be dinosaurs is if humans and dinosaurs coexisted. That's clearly not the case.
– JimmyJames
Jan 11 at 17:42
add a comment |
There is a simple factual response based on the fossil record, "No. Dinosaurs and people did not coexist" but this does not really answer the question "did humans draw dinosaurs?" -- with the implicit assumption that the two coexisted. Here I will provide some commentary about cave drawings (petroglyph, pictogram) with sources for further reading.
First a warning.
Mythologies created by rock art researchers and archaeologists are not limited to invented unlikely meanings, they also include vast numbers of “likely explanations”. Unfortunately, plausibility of interpretations does not render them any more credible, in fact from the epistemological perspective the unlikely versions are preferable: they are easier to refute. [1]
The above quote talks about created mythologies, but the warning applies to other subjective interpretation, such as "what does this image represent?"
One common such interpretation is that ancient humans have created representations of dinosaurs found in petroglyphs. However, these interpretations are wrong. Common explanations are local wildlife (such as a giraffe), or artistic liberties or human-animal hybrids. For instance, this paper (abstract) outlines several famous cases:
To support claims of the coexistence of humans with dinosaurs and pterosaurs, young-earth creationist authors have identified several pieces of ancient rock art as depictions of dinosaurs or pterosaurs. Here, nine such claims are investigated. An alleged pterosaur painting in Black Dragon Canyon, Utah, is actually not a single painting. Its "head" and "neck" are a painting of a person with outstretched arms. Its torso and limbs are those of a painting of a second person with outstretched arms, whose body continues into the "pterosaur's" "wing." The other "wing" is a painting of a horned serpent. The three paintings only appear connected because someone outlined the group with chalk. An alleged dinosaur petroglyph in Havasupai Canyon, Arizona, is a stylized bird with an extension on one foot; the hooked line that represents its head and neck is a stylized bird head. A second alleged dinosaur petroglyph in Havasupai Canyon is a stylized bighorn sheep or rabbit. An alleged dinosaur cave painting in Tanzania is an obvious giraffe. Three alleged cave paintings of long-necked dinosaurs in Zambia have short necks and most likely represent lizards. An alleged dinosaur painting on Agawa Rock in Lake Superior Provincial Park, Ottawa, represents Underwater Panther, a supernatural lake guardian of Ojibwe tradition. An alleged pterosaur painting at Alton, Illinois, is the product of the imagination of a nineteenth-century American author. These pieces of rock art now join the ever-growing pile of discredited "evidence" for the ancient coexistence of humans and dinosaurs. [2]
A similar article (by the same author as [1] that repeats many of the same examples of [2]) also expands on other critical failings of identification, such as a "mastodon" being incorrectly identified and another instance of a mastodon in a cave painting less than 100 years old. [3] Despite the many examples of incorrect attribution and misidentification, there is some sense in which this question is legitimate, which is some mythical reconstruction of available evidence by prehistoric man.
In several historic locations, the existence of fossil footprints was deemed to be of special significance to historic hominins, significant enough to be recorded (for example, [5]). In some cases, the fossil was reproduced in petroglyph, and there is at least one instance where a mythological creature was reconstructed from footprints, for instance:
(taken from [4].) The petroglyphs are reported favorably in [1][2], and [3] as a reconstruction from the tridactyl footprints; a mythical creature called "//Khwai-hemm" that, at the time of the story telling, only its tracks remained (i.e., the fossil footprints). A similar mythological construction near a similar footprint is identified in [6]
Conclusion
There is no fossil evidence humans and dinosaurs co-existed (see other answers). The cave paintings given as evidence to support that claim are either 1) clearly misidentified (vocabulary word of the day: Pareidolia ) or 2) a mythological construction based on local folk lore.
Sources
[1] Bednarik, Robert G. Myths about Rock Art. Journal of Literature and Art Studies, ISSN 2159-5836. August 2013, Vol. 3, No. 8, 482-500 https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/35548236/Myths_rock_art.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A&Expires=1546964986&Signature=0db0PSp1CoTsZEGMS65Sixt%2BK7o%3D&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DMyths_About_Rock_Art.pdf
[2] Senter, Phil. 2012. More "dinosaur" and "pterosaur" rock art that isn’t. Palaeontologia Electronica Vol. 15, Issue 2;22A,14p;
https://palaeo-electronica.org/content/2012-issue-2-articles/275-rock-art-dinosaurs
[3] Bednarik, Robert G. Pleistocene Palaeoart of the Americas. Arts 2014, 3, 190-206; doi:10.3390/arts3020190 https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/3/2/190/pdf
[4] Ellenberger et al. Bushmen Cave Paintings of Ornithopod Dinosaurs: Paleolithic Trackers Interpret Early Jurassic Footprints. Ichnos, 12:3, 223-226, DOI: 10.1080/10420940591008971 https://doi.org/10.1080/10420940591008971
[5] Lockley et al. An introduction to thunderbird footprints at the Flag Point pictograph-track site: preliminary observations on Lower Jurassic theropod tracks from the Vermillion Cliffs area, southwestern Utah. Part of The Triassic-Jurassic Terrestrial Transition 2006 Bulletin 37 pp310-314. http://econtent.unm.edu/cdm/ref/collection/bulletins/id/265
[6] Gerard D. Gierlinski and Konrad Z. Kowalski. Footprint of an large, Early Jurassic ornithischian from the ancient sacred site of Kontrewers, Poland. Part of The Triassic-Jurassic Terrestrial Transition 2006 Bulletin 37 pp217-220. http://econtent.unm.edu/cdm/ref/collection/bulletins/id/265
edited Jan 10 at 18:00
Laurel
11k54657
answered Jan 8 at 18:34
BurnsBABurnsBA
686310
1
FWIW I was curious about the images in the first paper, and found it online palaeo-electronica.org/content/2012-issue-2-articles/…
– Matt Thrower
Jan 10 at 11:11
If one accepts the idea that cave drawings of things-that-can-be-interpreted-as-dinosaurs means that dinosaurs and hominids coexisted, then by extension all of the modern drawings of dinosaurs, dragons, wyverns, aliens, etc, etc, must surely "prove" that these creatures exist TODAY!!!! QEC (quod erat confusus :-)
– Bob Jarvis
Jan 11 at 3:56
add a comment |
Hominidae Temporal range: Miocene–present, 17 – 0 Mya
Dinosaur
Temporal range: Late Triassic–Present, 233.23 – 0 Mya
all non-avian dinosaurs, estimated to have been 628-1078 species, as well as many groups of birds did suddenly become extinct approximately 66 million years ago.
233.23 – [66] Mya (gap years) 17 – 0 Mya
That's 49 million years between the death of the last (non-avian) dinosaur and the birth of the first hominid.
No.
answered Jan 8 at 2:32
MazuraMazura
39419
Radiometric dating is reliable as far as it goes. skeptics.stackexchange.com/q/9676/46077
– elliot svensson
Jan 8 at 17:26
1
Other than radiometric methods, the oldest date we know of is through direct observation is about 60,000 years. skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/42531/…
– elliot svensson
Jan 8 at 17:32
Five significant figures?
– Martin F
Jan 8 at 22:12
@MartinF - Is that about my over use of bold? That's because this question is two googles and a math problem, all the relevant data for which is a hyperlink or in bold.
– Mazura
Jan 9 at 0:53
3
@Mazura: I think he's referring to the "233.23 Mya" -- 5 significant digits -- instead of, say, "230 Mya" -- 2 significant digits.
– DevSolar
Jan 9 at 14:06
|
show 1 more comment
In New Zealand, the tuatara have many similarities with dinosaurs. Tuataras are still alive today. They are not technically considered dinosaurs, but if you are willing to relax your critera, they might have enough similarities to claim some level of human-dinosaur interaction? Here's a quote from the wikipedia page: "Although tuatara are sometimes called "living fossils", recent anatomical work has shown that they have changed significantly since the Mesozoic era".
The definition of "dinosaur" can be a tricky business. If cave drawings are your yardstick, then the depicted accuracy tends not to be extremely accurate, which might admit distant cousins of true dinosaurs. You could also consider the komodo dragon, crocodiles, alligators, goannas... not dinosaurs, but possibly inspiration for drawings that look like dinosaurs.
I should say that I agree with the explanation given in the other answers for the cave drawings in your links. They make a convincing argument that the drawings are stylised depictions of animals or mythical creatures, as covered by the other answers.
answered Jan 11 at 1:20
craqcraq
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I don't think that animals that are still alive today would fit the criteria of this question.
– Andrew Grimm
Jan 11 at 8:54
@AndrewGrimm, tautology.
– elliot svensson
Jan 12 at 0:46
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
No.
Non-avian dinosaurs were extinct about 65 million years ago, as the most recent dinosaur bone was directly dated as being 64.8 ± 0.9 Ma old.
The second dinosaur bone sample from Paleocene strata just above the Cretaceous-Paleogene interface yielded a Paleocene U-Pb date of 64.8 ± 0.9 Ma, consistent with palynologic, paleomagnetic, and fossil-mammal biochronologic data.
Direct U-Pb dating of Cretaceous and Paleocene dinosaur bones, San Juan Basin, New Mexico
The fossils we have found so far are incompatible with non-avian dinosaurs still being in existence after that time frame.
Hominids used to refer to the homo genus after separation from all other species of non-human apes, thus from after the separation from Pan Troglodytes (chimpanzees), but now the word hominins is used for that and hominids includes many other species of apes such as gorillas.
So, assuming from the rest of your question that we should look at hominins, there is a direct measurement of the age of the split between chimpanzees and homo through genes and it is 10-13 Ma ago:
The estimated date of the divergence between Pan (chimpanzee) and Homo is 10–13 MYBP
Molecular Timing of Primate Divergences as Estimated by Two Nonprimate Calibration Points
Thus hominins would not begin their existence until 50 million years after dinosaurs became extinct.
answered Jan 7 at 12:16
Sklivvz♦Sklivvz
63.4k25294410
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Oddthinking♦
Jan 7 at 21:54
2
And even if you went by "hominids", the speciation of the Hominidae line was 15-20 MYBP, so even accounting for all the great apes, you wouldn't get within 40 million years of non-avian dinosaurs.
– ShadowRanger
Jan 10 at 2:58
1
Unfortunately this answer suffers from the same logical error as the question: the assumption that the only way these drawings could have been intended to be dinosaurs is if humans and dinosaurs coexisted. That's clearly not the case.
– JimmyJames
Jan 11 at 17:42
add a comment |
No.
Non-avian dinosaurs were extinct about 65 million years ago, as the most recent dinosaur bone was directly dated as being 64.8 ± 0.9 Ma old.
The second dinosaur bone sample from Paleocene strata just above the Cretaceous-Paleogene interface yielded a Paleocene U-Pb date of 64.8 ± 0.9 Ma, consistent with palynologic, paleomagnetic, and fossil-mammal biochronologic data.
Direct U-Pb dating of Cretaceous and Paleocene dinosaur bones, San Juan Basin, New Mexico
The fossils we have found so far are incompatible with non-avian dinosaurs still being in existence after that time frame.
Hominids used to refer to the homo genus after separation from all other species of non-human apes, thus from after the separation from Pan Troglodytes (chimpanzees), but now the word hominins is used for that and hominids includes many other species of apes such as gorillas.
So, assuming from the rest of your question that we should look at hominins, there is a direct measurement of the age of the split between chimpanzees and homo through genes and it is 10-13 Ma ago:
The estimated date of the divergence between Pan (chimpanzee) and Homo is 10–13 MYBP
Molecular Timing of Primate Divergences as Estimated by Two Nonprimate Calibration Points
Thus hominins would not begin their existence until 50 million years after dinosaurs became extinct.
answered Jan 7 at 12:16
Sklivvz♦Sklivvz
63.4k25294410
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Oddthinking♦
Jan 7 at 21:54
2
And even if you went by "hominids", the speciation of the Hominidae line was 15-20 MYBP, so even accounting for all the great apes, you wouldn't get within 40 million years of non-avian dinosaurs.
– ShadowRanger
Jan 10 at 2:58
1
Unfortunately this answer suffers from the same logical error as the question: the assumption that the only way these drawings could have been intended to be dinosaurs is if humans and dinosaurs coexisted. That's clearly not the case.
– JimmyJames
Jan 11 at 17:42
add a comment |
No.
Non-avian dinosaurs were extinct about 65 million years ago, as the most recent dinosaur bone was directly dated as being 64.8 ± 0.9 Ma old.
The second dinosaur bone sample from Paleocene strata just above the Cretaceous-Paleogene interface yielded a Paleocene U-Pb date of 64.8 ± 0.9 Ma, consistent with palynologic, paleomagnetic, and fossil-mammal biochronologic data.
Direct U-Pb dating of Cretaceous and Paleocene dinosaur bones, San Juan Basin, New Mexico
The fossils we have found so far are incompatible with non-avian dinosaurs still being in existence after that time frame.
Hominids used to refer to the homo genus after separation from all other species of non-human apes, thus from after the separation from Pan Troglodytes (chimpanzees), but now the word hominins is used for that and hominids includes many other species of apes such as gorillas.
So, assuming from the rest of your question that we should look at hominins, there is a direct measurement of the age of the split between chimpanzees and homo through genes and it is 10-13 Ma ago:
The estimated date of the divergence between Pan (chimpanzee) and Homo is 10–13 MYBP
Molecular Timing of Primate Divergences as Estimated by Two Nonprimate Calibration Points
Thus hominins would not begin their existence until 50 million years after dinosaurs became extinct.
answered Jan 7 at 12:16
Sklivvz♦Sklivvz
63.4k25294410
No.
Non-avian dinosaurs were extinct about 65 million years ago, as the most recent dinosaur bone was directly dated as being 64.8 ± 0.9 Ma old.
The second dinosaur bone sample from Paleocene strata just above the Cretaceous-Paleogene interface yielded a Paleocene U-Pb date of 64.8 ± 0.9 Ma, consistent with palynologic, paleomagnetic, and fossil-mammal biochronologic data.
Direct U-Pb dating of Cretaceous and Paleocene dinosaur bones, San Juan Basin, New Mexico
The fossils we have found so far are incompatible with non-avian dinosaurs still being in existence after that time frame.
Hominids used to refer to the homo genus after separation from all other species of non-human apes, thus from after the separation from Pan Troglodytes (chimpanzees), but now the word hominins is used for that and hominids includes many other species of apes such as gorillas.
So, assuming from the rest of your question that we should look at hominins, there is a direct measurement of the age of the split between chimpanzees and homo through genes and it is 10-13 Ma ago:
The estimated date of the divergence between Pan (chimpanzee) and Homo is 10–13 MYBP
Molecular Timing of Primate Divergences as Estimated by Two Nonprimate Calibration Points
Thus hominins would not begin their existence until 50 million years after dinosaurs became extinct.
answered Jan 7 at 12:16
Sklivvz♦Sklivvz
63.4k25294410
edited Jan 8 at 16:21
answered Jan 7 at 12:16
Sklivvz♦Sklivvz
63.4k25294410
answered Jan 7 at 12:16
Sklivvz♦Sklivvz
63.4k25294410
answered Jan 7 at 12:16
Sklivvz♦Sklivvz
63.4k25294410
63.4k25294410
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Oddthinking♦
Jan 7 at 21:54
2
And even if you went by "hominids", the speciation of the Hominidae line was 15-20 MYBP, so even accounting for all the great apes, you wouldn't get within 40 million years of non-avian dinosaurs.
– ShadowRanger
Jan 10 at 2:58
1
Unfortunately this answer suffers from the same logical error as the question: the assumption that the only way these drawings could have been intended to be dinosaurs is if humans and dinosaurs coexisted. That's clearly not the case.
– JimmyJames
Jan 11 at 17:42
add a comment |
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Oddthinking♦
Jan 7 at 21:54
2
And even if you went by "hominids", the speciation of the Hominidae line was 15-20 MYBP, so even accounting for all the great apes, you wouldn't get within 40 million years of non-avian dinosaurs.
– ShadowRanger
Jan 10 at 2:58
1
Unfortunately this answer suffers from the same logical error as the question: the assumption that the only way these drawings could have been intended to be dinosaurs is if humans and dinosaurs coexisted. That's clearly not the case.
– JimmyJames
Jan 11 at 17:42
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Oddthinking♦
Jan 7 at 21:54
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Oddthinking♦
Jan 7 at 21:54
2
2
And even if you went by "hominids", the speciation of the Hominidae line was 15-20 MYBP, so even accounting for all the great apes, you wouldn't get within 40 million years of non-avian dinosaurs.
– ShadowRanger
Jan 10 at 2:58
And even if you went by "hominids", the speciation of the Hominidae line was 15-20 MYBP, so even accounting for all the great apes, you wouldn't get within 40 million years of non-avian dinosaurs.
– ShadowRanger
Jan 10 at 2:58
1
1
Unfortunately this answer suffers from the same logical error as the question: the assumption that the only way these drawings could have been intended to be dinosaurs is if humans and dinosaurs coexisted. That's clearly not the case.
– JimmyJames
Jan 11 at 17:42
Unfortunately this answer suffers from the same logical error as the question: the assumption that the only way these drawings could have been intended to be dinosaurs is if humans and dinosaurs coexisted. That's clearly not the case.
– JimmyJames
Jan 11 at 17:42
add a comment |
There is a simple factual response based on the fossil record, "No. Dinosaurs and people did not coexist" but this does not really answer the question "did humans draw dinosaurs?" -- with the implicit assumption that the two coexisted. Here I will provide some commentary about cave drawings (petroglyph, pictogram) with sources for further reading.
First a warning.
Mythologies created by rock art researchers and archaeologists are not limited to invented unlikely meanings, they also include vast numbers of “likely explanations”. Unfortunately, plausibility of interpretations does not render them any more credible, in fact from the epistemological perspective the unlikely versions are preferable: they are easier to refute. [1]
The above quote talks about created mythologies, but the warning applies to other subjective interpretation, such as "what does this image represent?"
One common such interpretation is that ancient humans have created representations of dinosaurs found in petroglyphs. However, these interpretations are wrong. Common explanations are local wildlife (such as a giraffe), or artistic liberties or human-animal hybrids. For instance, this paper (abstract) outlines several famous cases:
To support claims of the coexistence of humans with dinosaurs and pterosaurs, young-earth creationist authors have identified several pieces of ancient rock art as depictions of dinosaurs or pterosaurs. Here, nine such claims are investigated. An alleged pterosaur painting in Black Dragon Canyon, Utah, is actually not a single painting. Its "head" and "neck" are a painting of a person with outstretched arms. Its torso and limbs are those of a painting of a second person with outstretched arms, whose body continues into the "pterosaur's" "wing." The other "wing" is a painting of a horned serpent. The three paintings only appear connected because someone outlined the group with chalk. An alleged dinosaur petroglyph in Havasupai Canyon, Arizona, is a stylized bird with an extension on one foot; the hooked line that represents its head and neck is a stylized bird head. A second alleged dinosaur petroglyph in Havasupai Canyon is a stylized bighorn sheep or rabbit. An alleged dinosaur cave painting in Tanzania is an obvious giraffe. Three alleged cave paintings of long-necked dinosaurs in Zambia have short necks and most likely represent lizards. An alleged dinosaur painting on Agawa Rock in Lake Superior Provincial Park, Ottawa, represents Underwater Panther, a supernatural lake guardian of Ojibwe tradition. An alleged pterosaur painting at Alton, Illinois, is the product of the imagination of a nineteenth-century American author. These pieces of rock art now join the ever-growing pile of discredited "evidence" for the ancient coexistence of humans and dinosaurs. [2]
A similar article (by the same author as [1] that repeats many of the same examples of [2]) also expands on other critical failings of identification, such as a "mastodon" being incorrectly identified and another instance of a mastodon in a cave painting less than 100 years old. [3] Despite the many examples of incorrect attribution and misidentification, there is some sense in which this question is legitimate, which is some mythical reconstruction of available evidence by prehistoric man.
In several historic locations, the existence of fossil footprints was deemed to be of special significance to historic hominins, significant enough to be recorded (for example, [5]). In some cases, the fossil was reproduced in petroglyph, and there is at least one instance where a mythological creature was reconstructed from footprints, for instance:
(taken from [4].) The petroglyphs are reported favorably in [1][2], and [3] as a reconstruction from the tridactyl footprints; a mythical creature called "//Khwai-hemm" that, at the time of the story telling, only its tracks remained (i.e., the fossil footprints). A similar mythological construction near a similar footprint is identified in [6]
Conclusion
There is no fossil evidence humans and dinosaurs co-existed (see other answers). The cave paintings given as evidence to support that claim are either 1) clearly misidentified (vocabulary word of the day: Pareidolia ) or 2) a mythological construction based on local folk lore.
Sources
[1] Bednarik, Robert G. Myths about Rock Art. Journal of Literature and Art Studies, ISSN 2159-5836. August 2013, Vol. 3, No. 8, 482-500 https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/35548236/Myths_rock_art.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A&Expires=1546964986&Signature=0db0PSp1CoTsZEGMS65Sixt%2BK7o%3D&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DMyths_About_Rock_Art.pdf
[2] Senter, Phil. 2012. More "dinosaur" and "pterosaur" rock art that isn’t. Palaeontologia Electronica Vol. 15, Issue 2;22A,14p;
https://palaeo-electronica.org/content/2012-issue-2-articles/275-rock-art-dinosaurs
[3] Bednarik, Robert G. Pleistocene Palaeoart of the Americas. Arts 2014, 3, 190-206; doi:10.3390/arts3020190 https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/3/2/190/pdf
[4] Ellenberger et al. Bushmen Cave Paintings of Ornithopod Dinosaurs: Paleolithic Trackers Interpret Early Jurassic Footprints. Ichnos, 12:3, 223-226, DOI: 10.1080/10420940591008971 https://doi.org/10.1080/10420940591008971
[5] Lockley et al. An introduction to thunderbird footprints at the Flag Point pictograph-track site: preliminary observations on Lower Jurassic theropod tracks from the Vermillion Cliffs area, southwestern Utah. Part of The Triassic-Jurassic Terrestrial Transition 2006 Bulletin 37 pp310-314. http://econtent.unm.edu/cdm/ref/collection/bulletins/id/265
[6] Gerard D. Gierlinski and Konrad Z. Kowalski. Footprint of an large, Early Jurassic ornithischian from the ancient sacred site of Kontrewers, Poland. Part of The Triassic-Jurassic Terrestrial Transition 2006 Bulletin 37 pp217-220. http://econtent.unm.edu/cdm/ref/collection/bulletins/id/265
edited Jan 10 at 18:00
Laurel
11k54657
answered Jan 8 at 18:34
BurnsBABurnsBA
686310
1
FWIW I was curious about the images in the first paper, and found it online palaeo-electronica.org/content/2012-issue-2-articles/…
– Matt Thrower
Jan 10 at 11:11
If one accepts the idea that cave drawings of things-that-can-be-interpreted-as-dinosaurs means that dinosaurs and hominids coexisted, then by extension all of the modern drawings of dinosaurs, dragons, wyverns, aliens, etc, etc, must surely "prove" that these creatures exist TODAY!!!! QEC (quod erat confusus :-)
– Bob Jarvis
Jan 11 at 3:56
add a comment |
There is a simple factual response based on the fossil record, "No. Dinosaurs and people did not coexist" but this does not really answer the question "did humans draw dinosaurs?" -- with the implicit assumption that the two coexisted. Here I will provide some commentary about cave drawings (petroglyph, pictogram) with sources for further reading.
First a warning.
Mythologies created by rock art researchers and archaeologists are not limited to invented unlikely meanings, they also include vast numbers of “likely explanations”. Unfortunately, plausibility of interpretations does not render them any more credible, in fact from the epistemological perspective the unlikely versions are preferable: they are easier to refute. [1]
The above quote talks about created mythologies, but the warning applies to other subjective interpretation, such as "what does this image represent?"
One common such interpretation is that ancient humans have created representations of dinosaurs found in petroglyphs. However, these interpretations are wrong. Common explanations are local wildlife (such as a giraffe), or artistic liberties or human-animal hybrids. For instance, this paper (abstract) outlines several famous cases:
To support claims of the coexistence of humans with dinosaurs and pterosaurs, young-earth creationist authors have identified several pieces of ancient rock art as depictions of dinosaurs or pterosaurs. Here, nine such claims are investigated. An alleged pterosaur painting in Black Dragon Canyon, Utah, is actually not a single painting. Its "head" and "neck" are a painting of a person with outstretched arms. Its torso and limbs are those of a painting of a second person with outstretched arms, whose body continues into the "pterosaur's" "wing." The other "wing" is a painting of a horned serpent. The three paintings only appear connected because someone outlined the group with chalk. An alleged dinosaur petroglyph in Havasupai Canyon, Arizona, is a stylized bird with an extension on one foot; the hooked line that represents its head and neck is a stylized bird head. A second alleged dinosaur petroglyph in Havasupai Canyon is a stylized bighorn sheep or rabbit. An alleged dinosaur cave painting in Tanzania is an obvious giraffe. Three alleged cave paintings of long-necked dinosaurs in Zambia have short necks and most likely represent lizards. An alleged dinosaur painting on Agawa Rock in Lake Superior Provincial Park, Ottawa, represents Underwater Panther, a supernatural lake guardian of Ojibwe tradition. An alleged pterosaur painting at Alton, Illinois, is the product of the imagination of a nineteenth-century American author. These pieces of rock art now join the ever-growing pile of discredited "evidence" for the ancient coexistence of humans and dinosaurs. [2]
A similar article (by the same author as [1] that repeats many of the same examples of [2]) also expands on other critical failings of identification, such as a "mastodon" being incorrectly identified and another instance of a mastodon in a cave painting less than 100 years old. [3] Despite the many examples of incorrect attribution and misidentification, there is some sense in which this question is legitimate, which is some mythical reconstruction of available evidence by prehistoric man.
In several historic locations, the existence of fossil footprints was deemed to be of special significance to historic hominins, significant enough to be recorded (for example, [5]). In some cases, the fossil was reproduced in petroglyph, and there is at least one instance where a mythological creature was reconstructed from footprints, for instance:
(taken from [4].) The petroglyphs are reported favorably in [1][2], and [3] as a reconstruction from the tridactyl footprints; a mythical creature called "//Khwai-hemm" that, at the time of the story telling, only its tracks remained (i.e., the fossil footprints). A similar mythological construction near a similar footprint is identified in [6]
Conclusion
There is no fossil evidence humans and dinosaurs co-existed (see other answers). The cave paintings given as evidence to support that claim are either 1) clearly misidentified (vocabulary word of the day: Pareidolia ) or 2) a mythological construction based on local folk lore.
Sources
[1] Bednarik, Robert G. Myths about Rock Art. Journal of Literature and Art Studies, ISSN 2159-5836. August 2013, Vol. 3, No. 8, 482-500 https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/35548236/Myths_rock_art.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A&Expires=1546964986&Signature=0db0PSp1CoTsZEGMS65Sixt%2BK7o%3D&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DMyths_About_Rock_Art.pdf
[2] Senter, Phil. 2012. More "dinosaur" and "pterosaur" rock art that isn’t. Palaeontologia Electronica Vol. 15, Issue 2;22A,14p;
https://palaeo-electronica.org/content/2012-issue-2-articles/275-rock-art-dinosaurs
[3] Bednarik, Robert G. Pleistocene Palaeoart of the Americas. Arts 2014, 3, 190-206; doi:10.3390/arts3020190 https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/3/2/190/pdf
[4] Ellenberger et al. Bushmen Cave Paintings of Ornithopod Dinosaurs: Paleolithic Trackers Interpret Early Jurassic Footprints. Ichnos, 12:3, 223-226, DOI: 10.1080/10420940591008971 https://doi.org/10.1080/10420940591008971
[5] Lockley et al. An introduction to thunderbird footprints at the Flag Point pictograph-track site: preliminary observations on Lower Jurassic theropod tracks from the Vermillion Cliffs area, southwestern Utah. Part of The Triassic-Jurassic Terrestrial Transition 2006 Bulletin 37 pp310-314. http://econtent.unm.edu/cdm/ref/collection/bulletins/id/265
[6] Gerard D. Gierlinski and Konrad Z. Kowalski. Footprint of an large, Early Jurassic ornithischian from the ancient sacred site of Kontrewers, Poland. Part of The Triassic-Jurassic Terrestrial Transition 2006 Bulletin 37 pp217-220. http://econtent.unm.edu/cdm/ref/collection/bulletins/id/265
edited Jan 10 at 18:00
Laurel
11k54657
answered Jan 8 at 18:34
BurnsBABurnsBA
686310
1
FWIW I was curious about the images in the first paper, and found it online palaeo-electronica.org/content/2012-issue-2-articles/…
– Matt Thrower
Jan 10 at 11:11
If one accepts the idea that cave drawings of things-that-can-be-interpreted-as-dinosaurs means that dinosaurs and hominids coexisted, then by extension all of the modern drawings of dinosaurs, dragons, wyverns, aliens, etc, etc, must surely "prove" that these creatures exist TODAY!!!! QEC (quod erat confusus :-)
– Bob Jarvis
Jan 11 at 3:56
add a comment |
There is a simple factual response based on the fossil record, "No. Dinosaurs and people did not coexist" but this does not really answer the question "did humans draw dinosaurs?" -- with the implicit assumption that the two coexisted. Here I will provide some commentary about cave drawings (petroglyph, pictogram) with sources for further reading.
First a warning.
Mythologies created by rock art researchers and archaeologists are not limited to invented unlikely meanings, they also include vast numbers of “likely explanations”. Unfortunately, plausibility of interpretations does not render them any more credible, in fact from the epistemological perspective the unlikely versions are preferable: they are easier to refute. [1]
The above quote talks about created mythologies, but the warning applies to other subjective interpretation, such as "what does this image represent?"
One common such interpretation is that ancient humans have created representations of dinosaurs found in petroglyphs. However, these interpretations are wrong. Common explanations are local wildlife (such as a giraffe), or artistic liberties or human-animal hybrids. For instance, this paper (abstract) outlines several famous cases:
To support claims of the coexistence of humans with dinosaurs and pterosaurs, young-earth creationist authors have identified several pieces of ancient rock art as depictions of dinosaurs or pterosaurs. Here, nine such claims are investigated. An alleged pterosaur painting in Black Dragon Canyon, Utah, is actually not a single painting. Its "head" and "neck" are a painting of a person with outstretched arms. Its torso and limbs are those of a painting of a second person with outstretched arms, whose body continues into the "pterosaur's" "wing." The other "wing" is a painting of a horned serpent. The three paintings only appear connected because someone outlined the group with chalk. An alleged dinosaur petroglyph in Havasupai Canyon, Arizona, is a stylized bird with an extension on one foot; the hooked line that represents its head and neck is a stylized bird head. A second alleged dinosaur petroglyph in Havasupai Canyon is a stylized bighorn sheep or rabbit. An alleged dinosaur cave painting in Tanzania is an obvious giraffe. Three alleged cave paintings of long-necked dinosaurs in Zambia have short necks and most likely represent lizards. An alleged dinosaur painting on Agawa Rock in Lake Superior Provincial Park, Ottawa, represents Underwater Panther, a supernatural lake guardian of Ojibwe tradition. An alleged pterosaur painting at Alton, Illinois, is the product of the imagination of a nineteenth-century American author. These pieces of rock art now join the ever-growing pile of discredited "evidence" for the ancient coexistence of humans and dinosaurs. [2]
A similar article (by the same author as [1] that repeats many of the same examples of [2]) also expands on other critical failings of identification, such as a "mastodon" being incorrectly identified and another instance of a mastodon in a cave painting less than 100 years old. [3] Despite the many examples of incorrect attribution and misidentification, there is some sense in which this question is legitimate, which is some mythical reconstruction of available evidence by prehistoric man.
In several historic locations, the existence of fossil footprints was deemed to be of special significance to historic hominins, significant enough to be recorded (for example, [5]). In some cases, the fossil was reproduced in petroglyph, and there is at least one instance where a mythological creature was reconstructed from footprints, for instance:
(taken from [4].) The petroglyphs are reported favorably in [1][2], and [3] as a reconstruction from the tridactyl footprints; a mythical creature called "//Khwai-hemm" that, at the time of the story telling, only its tracks remained (i.e., the fossil footprints). A similar mythological construction near a similar footprint is identified in [6]
Conclusion
There is no fossil evidence humans and dinosaurs co-existed (see other answers). The cave paintings given as evidence to support that claim are either 1) clearly misidentified (vocabulary word of the day: Pareidolia ) or 2) a mythological construction based on local folk lore.
Sources
[1] Bednarik, Robert G. Myths about Rock Art. Journal of Literature and Art Studies, ISSN 2159-5836. August 2013, Vol. 3, No. 8, 482-500 https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/35548236/Myths_rock_art.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A&Expires=1546964986&Signature=0db0PSp1CoTsZEGMS65Sixt%2BK7o%3D&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DMyths_About_Rock_Art.pdf
[2] Senter, Phil. 2012. More "dinosaur" and "pterosaur" rock art that isn’t. Palaeontologia Electronica Vol. 15, Issue 2;22A,14p;
https://palaeo-electronica.org/content/2012-issue-2-articles/275-rock-art-dinosaurs
[3] Bednarik, Robert G. Pleistocene Palaeoart of the Americas. Arts 2014, 3, 190-206; doi:10.3390/arts3020190 https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/3/2/190/pdf
[4] Ellenberger et al. Bushmen Cave Paintings of Ornithopod Dinosaurs: Paleolithic Trackers Interpret Early Jurassic Footprints. Ichnos, 12:3, 223-226, DOI: 10.1080/10420940591008971 https://doi.org/10.1080/10420940591008971
[5] Lockley et al. An introduction to thunderbird footprints at the Flag Point pictograph-track site: preliminary observations on Lower Jurassic theropod tracks from the Vermillion Cliffs area, southwestern Utah. Part of The Triassic-Jurassic Terrestrial Transition 2006 Bulletin 37 pp310-314. http://econtent.unm.edu/cdm/ref/collection/bulletins/id/265
[6] Gerard D. Gierlinski and Konrad Z. Kowalski. Footprint of an large, Early Jurassic ornithischian from the ancient sacred site of Kontrewers, Poland. Part of The Triassic-Jurassic Terrestrial Transition 2006 Bulletin 37 pp217-220. http://econtent.unm.edu/cdm/ref/collection/bulletins/id/265
edited Jan 10 at 18:00
Laurel
11k54657
answered Jan 8 at 18:34
BurnsBABurnsBA
686310
There is a simple factual response based on the fossil record, "No. Dinosaurs and people did not coexist" but this does not really answer the question "did humans draw dinosaurs?" -- with the implicit assumption that the two coexisted. Here I will provide some commentary about cave drawings (petroglyph, pictogram) with sources for further reading.
First a warning.
Mythologies created by rock art researchers and archaeologists are not limited to invented unlikely meanings, they also include vast numbers of “likely explanations”. Unfortunately, plausibility of interpretations does not render them any more credible, in fact from the epistemological perspective the unlikely versions are preferable: they are easier to refute. [1]
The above quote talks about created mythologies, but the warning applies to other subjective interpretation, such as "what does this image represent?"
One common such interpretation is that ancient humans have created representations of dinosaurs found in petroglyphs. However, these interpretations are wrong. Common explanations are local wildlife (such as a giraffe), or artistic liberties or human-animal hybrids. For instance, this paper (abstract) outlines several famous cases:
To support claims of the coexistence of humans with dinosaurs and pterosaurs, young-earth creationist authors have identified several pieces of ancient rock art as depictions of dinosaurs or pterosaurs. Here, nine such claims are investigated. An alleged pterosaur painting in Black Dragon Canyon, Utah, is actually not a single painting. Its "head" and "neck" are a painting of a person with outstretched arms. Its torso and limbs are those of a painting of a second person with outstretched arms, whose body continues into the "pterosaur's" "wing." The other "wing" is a painting of a horned serpent. The three paintings only appear connected because someone outlined the group with chalk. An alleged dinosaur petroglyph in Havasupai Canyon, Arizona, is a stylized bird with an extension on one foot; the hooked line that represents its head and neck is a stylized bird head. A second alleged dinosaur petroglyph in Havasupai Canyon is a stylized bighorn sheep or rabbit. An alleged dinosaur cave painting in Tanzania is an obvious giraffe. Three alleged cave paintings of long-necked dinosaurs in Zambia have short necks and most likely represent lizards. An alleged dinosaur painting on Agawa Rock in Lake Superior Provincial Park, Ottawa, represents Underwater Panther, a supernatural lake guardian of Ojibwe tradition. An alleged pterosaur painting at Alton, Illinois, is the product of the imagination of a nineteenth-century American author. These pieces of rock art now join the ever-growing pile of discredited "evidence" for the ancient coexistence of humans and dinosaurs. [2]
A similar article (by the same author as [1] that repeats many of the same examples of [2]) also expands on other critical failings of identification, such as a "mastodon" being incorrectly identified and another instance of a mastodon in a cave painting less than 100 years old. [3] Despite the many examples of incorrect attribution and misidentification, there is some sense in which this question is legitimate, which is some mythical reconstruction of available evidence by prehistoric man.
In several historic locations, the existence of fossil footprints was deemed to be of special significance to historic hominins, significant enough to be recorded (for example, [5]). In some cases, the fossil was reproduced in petroglyph, and there is at least one instance where a mythological creature was reconstructed from footprints, for instance:
(taken from [4].) The petroglyphs are reported favorably in [1][2], and [3] as a reconstruction from the tridactyl footprints; a mythical creature called "//Khwai-hemm" that, at the time of the story telling, only its tracks remained (i.e., the fossil footprints). A similar mythological construction near a similar footprint is identified in [6]
Conclusion
There is no fossil evidence humans and dinosaurs co-existed (see other answers). The cave paintings given as evidence to support that claim are either 1) clearly misidentified (vocabulary word of the day: Pareidolia ) or 2) a mythological construction based on local folk lore.
Sources
[1] Bednarik, Robert G. Myths about Rock Art. Journal of Literature and Art Studies, ISSN 2159-5836. August 2013, Vol. 3, No. 8, 482-500 https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/35548236/Myths_rock_art.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A&Expires=1546964986&Signature=0db0PSp1CoTsZEGMS65Sixt%2BK7o%3D&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DMyths_About_Rock_Art.pdf
[2] Senter, Phil. 2012. More "dinosaur" and "pterosaur" rock art that isn’t. Palaeontologia Electronica Vol. 15, Issue 2;22A,14p;
https://palaeo-electronica.org/content/2012-issue-2-articles/275-rock-art-dinosaurs
[3] Bednarik, Robert G. Pleistocene Palaeoart of the Americas. Arts 2014, 3, 190-206; doi:10.3390/arts3020190 https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0752/3/2/190/pdf
[4] Ellenberger et al. Bushmen Cave Paintings of Ornithopod Dinosaurs: Paleolithic Trackers Interpret Early Jurassic Footprints. Ichnos, 12:3, 223-226, DOI: 10.1080/10420940591008971 https://doi.org/10.1080/10420940591008971
[5] Lockley et al. An introduction to thunderbird footprints at the Flag Point pictograph-track site: preliminary observations on Lower Jurassic theropod tracks from the Vermillion Cliffs area, southwestern Utah. Part of The Triassic-Jurassic Terrestrial Transition 2006 Bulletin 37 pp310-314. http://econtent.unm.edu/cdm/ref/collection/bulletins/id/265
[6] Gerard D. Gierlinski and Konrad Z. Kowalski. Footprint of an large, Early Jurassic ornithischian from the ancient sacred site of Kontrewers, Poland. Part of The Triassic-Jurassic Terrestrial Transition 2006 Bulletin 37 pp217-220. http://econtent.unm.edu/cdm/ref/collection/bulletins/id/265
edited Jan 10 at 18:00
Laurel
11k54657
answered Jan 8 at 18:34
BurnsBABurnsBA
686310
edited Jan 10 at 18:00
Laurel
11k54657
edited Jan 10 at 18:00
Laurel
11k54657
edited Jan 10 at 18:00
Laurel
11k54657
11k54657
answered Jan 8 at 18:34
BurnsBABurnsBA
686310
answered Jan 8 at 18:34
BurnsBABurnsBA
686310
answered Jan 8 at 18:34
BurnsBABurnsBA
686310
686310
1
FWIW I was curious about the images in the first paper, and found it online palaeo-electronica.org/content/2012-issue-2-articles/…
– Matt Thrower
Jan 10 at 11:11
If one accepts the idea that cave drawings of things-that-can-be-interpreted-as-dinosaurs means that dinosaurs and hominids coexisted, then by extension all of the modern drawings of dinosaurs, dragons, wyverns, aliens, etc, etc, must surely "prove" that these creatures exist TODAY!!!! QEC (quod erat confusus :-)
– Bob Jarvis
Jan 11 at 3:56
add a comment |
1
FWIW I was curious about the images in the first paper, and found it online palaeo-electronica.org/content/2012-issue-2-articles/…
– Matt Thrower
Jan 10 at 11:11
If one accepts the idea that cave drawings of things-that-can-be-interpreted-as-dinosaurs means that dinosaurs and hominids coexisted, then by extension all of the modern drawings of dinosaurs, dragons, wyverns, aliens, etc, etc, must surely "prove" that these creatures exist TODAY!!!! QEC (quod erat confusus :-)
– Bob Jarvis
Jan 11 at 3:56
1
1
FWIW I was curious about the images in the first paper, and found it online palaeo-electronica.org/content/2012-issue-2-articles/…
– Matt Thrower
Jan 10 at 11:11
FWIW I was curious about the images in the first paper, and found it online palaeo-electronica.org/content/2012-issue-2-articles/…
– Matt Thrower
Jan 10 at 11:11
If one accepts the idea that cave drawings of things-that-can-be-interpreted-as-dinosaurs means that dinosaurs and hominids coexisted, then by extension all of the modern drawings of dinosaurs, dragons, wyverns, aliens, etc, etc, must surely "prove" that these creatures exist TODAY!!!! QEC (quod erat confusus :-)
– Bob Jarvis
Jan 11 at 3:56
If one accepts the idea that cave drawings of things-that-can-be-interpreted-as-dinosaurs means that dinosaurs and hominids coexisted, then by extension all of the modern drawings of dinosaurs, dragons, wyverns, aliens, etc, etc, must surely "prove" that these creatures exist TODAY!!!! QEC (quod erat confusus :-)
– Bob Jarvis
Jan 11 at 3:56
add a comment |
Hominidae Temporal range: Miocene–present, 17 – 0 Mya
Dinosaur
Temporal range: Late Triassic–Present, 233.23 – 0 Mya
all non-avian dinosaurs, estimated to have been 628-1078 species, as well as many groups of birds did suddenly become extinct approximately 66 million years ago.
233.23 – [66] Mya (gap years) 17 – 0 Mya
That's 49 million years between the death of the last (non-avian) dinosaur and the birth of the first hominid.
No.
answered Jan 8 at 2:32
MazuraMazura
39419
Radiometric dating is reliable as far as it goes. skeptics.stackexchange.com/q/9676/46077
– elliot svensson
Jan 8 at 17:26
1
Other than radiometric methods, the oldest date we know of is through direct observation is about 60,000 years. skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/42531/…
– elliot svensson
Jan 8 at 17:32
Five significant figures?
– Martin F
Jan 8 at 22:12
@MartinF - Is that about my over use of bold? That's because this question is two googles and a math problem, all the relevant data for which is a hyperlink or in bold.
– Mazura
Jan 9 at 0:53
3
@Mazura: I think he's referring to the "233.23 Mya" -- 5 significant digits -- instead of, say, "230 Mya" -- 2 significant digits.
– DevSolar
Jan 9 at 14:06
|
show 1 more comment
Hominidae Temporal range: Miocene–present, 17 – 0 Mya
Dinosaur
Temporal range: Late Triassic–Present, 233.23 – 0 Mya
all non-avian dinosaurs, estimated to have been 628-1078 species, as well as many groups of birds did suddenly become extinct approximately 66 million years ago.
233.23 – [66] Mya (gap years) 17 – 0 Mya
That's 49 million years between the death of the last (non-avian) dinosaur and the birth of the first hominid.
No.
answered Jan 8 at 2:32
MazuraMazura
39419
Radiometric dating is reliable as far as it goes. skeptics.stackexchange.com/q/9676/46077
– elliot svensson
Jan 8 at 17:26
1
Other than radiometric methods, the oldest date we know of is through direct observation is about 60,000 years. skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/42531/…
– elliot svensson
Jan 8 at 17:32
Five significant figures?
– Martin F
Jan 8 at 22:12
@MartinF - Is that about my over use of bold? That's because this question is two googles and a math problem, all the relevant data for which is a hyperlink or in bold.
– Mazura
Jan 9 at 0:53
3
@Mazura: I think he's referring to the "233.23 Mya" -- 5 significant digits -- instead of, say, "230 Mya" -- 2 significant digits.
– DevSolar
Jan 9 at 14:06
|
show 1 more comment
Hominidae Temporal range: Miocene–present, 17 – 0 Mya
Dinosaur
Temporal range: Late Triassic–Present, 233.23 – 0 Mya
all non-avian dinosaurs, estimated to have been 628-1078 species, as well as many groups of birds did suddenly become extinct approximately 66 million years ago.
233.23 – [66] Mya (gap years) 17 – 0 Mya
That's 49 million years between the death of the last (non-avian) dinosaur and the birth of the first hominid.
No.
answered Jan 8 at 2:32
MazuraMazura
39419
Hominidae Temporal range: Miocene–present, 17 – 0 Mya
Dinosaur
Temporal range: Late Triassic–Present, 233.23 – 0 Mya
all non-avian dinosaurs, estimated to have been 628-1078 species, as well as many groups of birds did suddenly become extinct approximately 66 million years ago.
233.23 – [66] Mya (gap years) 17 – 0 Mya
That's 49 million years between the death of the last (non-avian) dinosaur and the birth of the first hominid.
No.
answered Jan 8 at 2:32
MazuraMazura
39419
edited Jan 8 at 2:38
answered Jan 8 at 2:32
MazuraMazura
39419
answered Jan 8 at 2:32
MazuraMazura
39419
answered Jan 8 at 2:32
MazuraMazura
39419
39419
Radiometric dating is reliable as far as it goes. skeptics.stackexchange.com/q/9676/46077
– elliot svensson
Jan 8 at 17:26
1
Other than radiometric methods, the oldest date we know of is through direct observation is about 60,000 years. skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/42531/…
– elliot svensson
Jan 8 at 17:32
Five significant figures?
– Martin F
Jan 8 at 22:12
@MartinF - Is that about my over use of bold? That's because this question is two googles and a math problem, all the relevant data for which is a hyperlink or in bold.
– Mazura
Jan 9 at 0:53
3
@Mazura: I think he's referring to the "233.23 Mya" -- 5 significant digits -- instead of, say, "230 Mya" -- 2 significant digits.
– DevSolar
Jan 9 at 14:06
|
show 1 more comment
Radiometric dating is reliable as far as it goes. skeptics.stackexchange.com/q/9676/46077
– elliot svensson
Jan 8 at 17:26
1
Other than radiometric methods, the oldest date we know of is through direct observation is about 60,000 years. skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/42531/…
– elliot svensson
Jan 8 at 17:32
Five significant figures?
– Martin F
Jan 8 at 22:12
@MartinF - Is that about my over use of bold? That's because this question is two googles and a math problem, all the relevant data for which is a hyperlink or in bold.
– Mazura
Jan 9 at 0:53
3
@Mazura: I think he's referring to the "233.23 Mya" -- 5 significant digits -- instead of, say, "230 Mya" -- 2 significant digits.
– DevSolar
Jan 9 at 14:06
Radiometric dating is reliable as far as it goes. skeptics.stackexchange.com/q/9676/46077
– elliot svensson
Jan 8 at 17:26
Radiometric dating is reliable as far as it goes. skeptics.stackexchange.com/q/9676/46077
– elliot svensson
Jan 8 at 17:26
1
1
Other than radiometric methods, the oldest date we know of is through direct observation is about 60,000 years. skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/42531/…
– elliot svensson
Jan 8 at 17:32
Other than radiometric methods, the oldest date we know of is through direct observation is about 60,000 years. skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/42531/…
– elliot svensson
Jan 8 at 17:32
Five significant figures?
– Martin F
Jan 8 at 22:12
Five significant figures?
– Martin F
Jan 8 at 22:12
@MartinF - Is that about my over use of bold? That's because this question is two googles and a math problem, all the relevant data for which is a hyperlink or in bold.
– Mazura
Jan 9 at 0:53
@MartinF - Is that about my over use of bold? That's because this question is two googles and a math problem, all the relevant data for which is a hyperlink or in bold.
– Mazura
Jan 9 at 0:53
3
3
@Mazura: I think he's referring to the "233.23 Mya" -- 5 significant digits -- instead of, say, "230 Mya" -- 2 significant digits.
– DevSolar
Jan 9 at 14:06
@Mazura: I think he's referring to the "233.23 Mya" -- 5 significant digits -- instead of, say, "230 Mya" -- 2 significant digits.
– DevSolar
Jan 9 at 14:06
|
show 1 more comment
In New Zealand, the tuatara have many similarities with dinosaurs. Tuataras are still alive today. They are not technically considered dinosaurs, but if you are willing to relax your critera, they might have enough similarities to claim some level of human-dinosaur interaction? Here's a quote from the wikipedia page: "Although tuatara are sometimes called "living fossils", recent anatomical work has shown that they have changed significantly since the Mesozoic era".
The definition of "dinosaur" can be a tricky business. If cave drawings are your yardstick, then the depicted accuracy tends not to be extremely accurate, which might admit distant cousins of true dinosaurs. You could also consider the komodo dragon, crocodiles, alligators, goannas... not dinosaurs, but possibly inspiration for drawings that look like dinosaurs.
I should say that I agree with the explanation given in the other answers for the cave drawings in your links. They make a convincing argument that the drawings are stylised depictions of animals or mythical creatures, as covered by the other answers.
answered Jan 11 at 1:20
craqcraq
1093
New contributor
craq is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
I don't think that animals that are still alive today would fit the criteria of this question.
– Andrew Grimm
Jan 11 at 8:54
@AndrewGrimm, tautology.
– elliot svensson
Jan 12 at 0:46
add a comment |
In New Zealand, the tuatara have many similarities with dinosaurs. Tuataras are still alive today. They are not technically considered dinosaurs, but if you are willing to relax your critera, they might have enough similarities to claim some level of human-dinosaur interaction? Here's a quote from the wikipedia page: "Although tuatara are sometimes called "living fossils", recent anatomical work has shown that they have changed significantly since the Mesozoic era".
The definition of "dinosaur" can be a tricky business. If cave drawings are your yardstick, then the depicted accuracy tends not to be extremely accurate, which might admit distant cousins of true dinosaurs. You could also consider the komodo dragon, crocodiles, alligators, goannas... not dinosaurs, but possibly inspiration for drawings that look like dinosaurs.
I should say that I agree with the explanation given in the other answers for the cave drawings in your links. They make a convincing argument that the drawings are stylised depictions of animals or mythical creatures, as covered by the other answers.
answered Jan 11 at 1:20
craqcraq
1093
New contributor
craq is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
I don't think that animals that are still alive today would fit the criteria of this question.
– Andrew Grimm
Jan 11 at 8:54
@AndrewGrimm, tautology.
– elliot svensson
Jan 12 at 0:46
add a comment |
In New Zealand, the tuatara have many similarities with dinosaurs. Tuataras are still alive today. They are not technically considered dinosaurs, but if you are willing to relax your critera, they might have enough similarities to claim some level of human-dinosaur interaction? Here's a quote from the wikipedia page: "Although tuatara are sometimes called "living fossils", recent anatomical work has shown that they have changed significantly since the Mesozoic era".
The definition of "dinosaur" can be a tricky business. If cave drawings are your yardstick, then the depicted accuracy tends not to be extremely accurate, which might admit distant cousins of true dinosaurs. You could also consider the komodo dragon, crocodiles, alligators, goannas... not dinosaurs, but possibly inspiration for drawings that look like dinosaurs.
I should say that I agree with the explanation given in the other answers for the cave drawings in your links. They make a convincing argument that the drawings are stylised depictions of animals or mythical creatures, as covered by the other answers.
answered Jan 11 at 1:20
craqcraq
1093
New contributor
craq is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
In New Zealand, the tuatara have many similarities with dinosaurs. Tuataras are still alive today. They are not technically considered dinosaurs, but if you are willing to relax your critera, they might have enough similarities to claim some level of human-dinosaur interaction? Here's a quote from the wikipedia page: "Although tuatara are sometimes called "living fossils", recent anatomical work has shown that they have changed significantly since the Mesozoic era".
The definition of "dinosaur" can be a tricky business. If cave drawings are your yardstick, then the depicted accuracy tends not to be extremely accurate, which might admit distant cousins of true dinosaurs. You could also consider the komodo dragon, crocodiles, alligators, goannas... not dinosaurs, but possibly inspiration for drawings that look like dinosaurs.
I should say that I agree with the explanation given in the other answers for the cave drawings in your links. They make a convincing argument that the drawings are stylised depictions of animals or mythical creatures, as covered by the other answers.
answered Jan 11 at 1:20
craqcraq
1093
New contributor
craq is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered Jan 11 at 1:20
craqcraq
1093
New contributor
craq is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered Jan 11 at 1:20
craqcraq
1093
answered Jan 11 at 1:20
craqcraq
1093
1093
New contributor
craq is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
craq is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
craq is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
I don't think that animals that are still alive today would fit the criteria of this question.
– Andrew Grimm
Jan 11 at 8:54
@AndrewGrimm, tautology.
– elliot svensson
Jan 12 at 0:46
add a comment |
I don't think that animals that are still alive today would fit the criteria of this question.
– Andrew Grimm
Jan 11 at 8:54
@AndrewGrimm, tautology.
– elliot svensson
Jan 12 at 0:46
I don't think that animals that are still alive today would fit the criteria of this question.
– Andrew Grimm
Jan 11 at 8:54
I don't think that animals that are still alive today would fit the criteria of this question.
– Andrew Grimm
Jan 11 at 8:54
@AndrewGrimm, tautology.
– elliot svensson
Jan 12 at 0:46
@AndrewGrimm, tautology.
– elliot svensson
Jan 12 at 0:46
add a comment |
3
Maybe this question should be rephrased "Is it possible than some species of non-avian dinosaur managed to persist as a 'living fossil' until 100,000 years ago"? It is almost impossible to prove a negative, so "Yes". Further, as proof of possibility, the Coelacanth and the Wollemi Pine survived, to surprise modern scientists. This comment should not be read as the author thinking that this is likely, merely possible. Further, had it happened, I would expect the living fossil to be a small creature similar to, say, a quail with a tail ... but not, taxonomically, of the aves.
– nigel222
Jan 8 at 19:41
related article: "More “dinosaur” and “pterosaur” rock art that isn ’t" digitalcommons.uncfsu.edu/bio_wp/2
– bondonk
Jan 10 at 11:50
2
@nigel222 - Its "possible" that the molecules around me right now could coalesce into a functional living T-Rex through simple Brownian motion. This is not a real-world helpful fact though, and a question about T-Rex's possibly running around my building should not be answered "Yes" on that basis.
– T.E.D.
Jan 10 at 19:46
1
@T.E.D., what evidence do you have for Brownian motion producing a T-Rex?
– elliot svensson
Jan 10 at 22:29
2
@nigel222 That still misses the core premise of the question. It should be something like: Were these pretroglyphs intended to represent dinosaurs and if so, is that proof that humans and dinosaurs coexisted.
– JimmyJames
Jan 11 at 17:45