What makes game 5 of the World Championship a draw?











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I was watching recently the excellent ChessNetwork commentary of the 5th game of the WCC 2018 between Magnus Carlsen and Fabiano Caruana. The end position looked like this and players shook hands after white played g4:





[FEN "8/5R2/5bp1/3rpk1p/8/4B2P/5PP1/5K2 w - - 0 1"]


There is not much to grip onto on either side for sure, but it doesn't strike me as a draw either. The line I get with Stockfish is not straight forward.



{ [Stockfish 280218 64 POPCNT] 68:+0.00} 1...Ke6 2.Ra7 Rd6 3.Ke2 
hxg4 4.hxg4 Rc6 5.f3 Bd8 6.Rg7 Kf6 7.Rg8 Bb6 8.Bh6 Rd6 9.Rf8+ Ke6 10.
Re8+ Kd5 11.Be3 Bd8 12.f4 exf4 13.Bxf4 Re6+ 14.Rxe6 Kxe6 15.Kd3 Kd5
16.Ke3 Be7 17.Kd3 Bb4 18.Ke3 Bc5+ 19.Kf3 Be7 20.Be3 Bd8 21.Bf4 Be7


Is there any simple explanation why this position appears as an obvious draw other than a lack of goals to pursue on both sides?










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  • 1




    Your line doesn't match the position, since there is an hxg4 but g4 hasn't been played in the diagram.
    – Isac
    Dec 6 at 12:16










  • @isac good spot, corrected.
    – Jacques Gaudin
    Dec 6 at 12:27















up vote
4
down vote

favorite












I was watching recently the excellent ChessNetwork commentary of the 5th game of the WCC 2018 between Magnus Carlsen and Fabiano Caruana. The end position looked like this and players shook hands after white played g4:





[FEN "8/5R2/5bp1/3rpk1p/8/4B2P/5PP1/5K2 w - - 0 1"]


There is not much to grip onto on either side for sure, but it doesn't strike me as a draw either. The line I get with Stockfish is not straight forward.



{ [Stockfish 280218 64 POPCNT] 68:+0.00} 1...Ke6 2.Ra7 Rd6 3.Ke2 
hxg4 4.hxg4 Rc6 5.f3 Bd8 6.Rg7 Kf6 7.Rg8 Bb6 8.Bh6 Rd6 9.Rf8+ Ke6 10.
Re8+ Kd5 11.Be3 Bd8 12.f4 exf4 13.Bxf4 Re6+ 14.Rxe6 Kxe6 15.Kd3 Kd5
16.Ke3 Be7 17.Kd3 Bb4 18.Ke3 Bc5+ 19.Kf3 Be7 20.Be3 Bd8 21.Bf4 Be7


Is there any simple explanation why this position appears as an obvious draw other than a lack of goals to pursue on both sides?










share|improve this question




















  • 1




    Your line doesn't match the position, since there is an hxg4 but g4 hasn't been played in the diagram.
    – Isac
    Dec 6 at 12:16










  • @isac good spot, corrected.
    – Jacques Gaudin
    Dec 6 at 12:27













up vote
4
down vote

favorite









up vote
4
down vote

favorite











I was watching recently the excellent ChessNetwork commentary of the 5th game of the WCC 2018 between Magnus Carlsen and Fabiano Caruana. The end position looked like this and players shook hands after white played g4:





[FEN "8/5R2/5bp1/3rpk1p/8/4B2P/5PP1/5K2 w - - 0 1"]


There is not much to grip onto on either side for sure, but it doesn't strike me as a draw either. The line I get with Stockfish is not straight forward.



{ [Stockfish 280218 64 POPCNT] 68:+0.00} 1...Ke6 2.Ra7 Rd6 3.Ke2 
hxg4 4.hxg4 Rc6 5.f3 Bd8 6.Rg7 Kf6 7.Rg8 Bb6 8.Bh6 Rd6 9.Rf8+ Ke6 10.
Re8+ Kd5 11.Be3 Bd8 12.f4 exf4 13.Bxf4 Re6+ 14.Rxe6 Kxe6 15.Kd3 Kd5
16.Ke3 Be7 17.Kd3 Bb4 18.Ke3 Bc5+ 19.Kf3 Be7 20.Be3 Bd8 21.Bf4 Be7


Is there any simple explanation why this position appears as an obvious draw other than a lack of goals to pursue on both sides?










share|improve this question















I was watching recently the excellent ChessNetwork commentary of the 5th game of the WCC 2018 between Magnus Carlsen and Fabiano Caruana. The end position looked like this and players shook hands after white played g4:





[FEN "8/5R2/5bp1/3rpk1p/8/4B2P/5PP1/5K2 w - - 0 1"]


There is not much to grip onto on either side for sure, but it doesn't strike me as a draw either. The line I get with Stockfish is not straight forward.



{ [Stockfish 280218 64 POPCNT] 68:+0.00} 1...Ke6 2.Ra7 Rd6 3.Ke2 
hxg4 4.hxg4 Rc6 5.f3 Bd8 6.Rg7 Kf6 7.Rg8 Bb6 8.Bh6 Rd6 9.Rf8+ Ke6 10.
Re8+ Kd5 11.Be3 Bd8 12.f4 exf4 13.Bxf4 Re6+ 14.Rxe6 Kxe6 15.Kd3 Kd5
16.Ke3 Be7 17.Kd3 Bb4 18.Ke3 Bc5+ 19.Kf3 Be7 20.Be3 Bd8 21.Bf4 Be7


Is there any simple explanation why this position appears as an obvious draw other than a lack of goals to pursue on both sides?







draw world-championship






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edited Dec 6 at 12:27

























asked Dec 3 at 21:45









Jacques Gaudin

220210




220210








  • 1




    Your line doesn't match the position, since there is an hxg4 but g4 hasn't been played in the diagram.
    – Isac
    Dec 6 at 12:16










  • @isac good spot, corrected.
    – Jacques Gaudin
    Dec 6 at 12:27














  • 1




    Your line doesn't match the position, since there is an hxg4 but g4 hasn't been played in the diagram.
    – Isac
    Dec 6 at 12:16










  • @isac good spot, corrected.
    – Jacques Gaudin
    Dec 6 at 12:27








1




1




Your line doesn't match the position, since there is an hxg4 but g4 hasn't been played in the diagram.
– Isac
Dec 6 at 12:16




Your line doesn't match the position, since there is an hxg4 but g4 hasn't been played in the diagram.
– Isac
Dec 6 at 12:16












@isac good spot, corrected.
– Jacques Gaudin
Dec 6 at 12:27




@isac good spot, corrected.
– Jacques Gaudin
Dec 6 at 12:27










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
6
down vote



accepted










Some points to consider:




  • No passed pawn

  • All rook endgames with equal number of pawns in its own half are drawn (I do not know if this is a theorem, but it is almost a theorem).

  • One of the players can probably force exchange of bishops and get it to rook endgame with equal number of pawns.

  • Both players are 2800+ and it is a classical game, so enough time to think and make the right moves.


EDIT: You can look at the game discussed here, where one side has Rook along with 'a' and 'c' pawns, while the other side just has a rook and the game is still a draw.






share|improve this answer






























    up vote
    6
    down vote













    Computer engines are of little use in positions like this. Still it is a pretty obvious draw, because of:




    • equal (and very limited) material

    • pawns on the same side of the board

    • no weaknesses for either player

    • active and safe kings


    In order to win this, one would have to win material or promote a pawn, neither of which can be forced.






    share|improve this answer




























      up vote
      1
      down vote













      I'll add a few points to the answers already given:




      1. If both sides exchanged all their pawns, the game is a draw, because R+B vs. R+B is a draw. In fact R+B vs. R is a draw . Think about this for a moment: it means that if either side can exchange their bishop for all three of the other side's pawns, they're the only side that can win (since they can still theoretically promote a pawn while the opponent will never be able to checkmate them).

      2. Obviously from that position, for either side to win, they must push their pawns to promotion. But there are no passed pawns. What's likely to happen after the pawn pushes is that the pawns are going to be exchanged.

      3. Neither side has a material advantage.


      You can imagine what's likely to happen if both players had played on. Because of #2, pawns will be pushed and likely exchanged. Because of #3, there's a good chance all the pawns are exchanged. If either side is to have any hope of winning, it needs to be able to win a pawn for nothing. But even if that happens, some pawns are still likely to have been exchanged, leaving a R+B+P vs. R+B scenario ... and then the side with the R+B can just sacrifice the Bishop for the pawn and the game is drawn by #1.






      share|improve this answer





















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        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

        votes








        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes








        up vote
        6
        down vote



        accepted










        Some points to consider:




        • No passed pawn

        • All rook endgames with equal number of pawns in its own half are drawn (I do not know if this is a theorem, but it is almost a theorem).

        • One of the players can probably force exchange of bishops and get it to rook endgame with equal number of pawns.

        • Both players are 2800+ and it is a classical game, so enough time to think and make the right moves.


        EDIT: You can look at the game discussed here, where one side has Rook along with 'a' and 'c' pawns, while the other side just has a rook and the game is still a draw.






        share|improve this answer



























          up vote
          6
          down vote



          accepted










          Some points to consider:




          • No passed pawn

          • All rook endgames with equal number of pawns in its own half are drawn (I do not know if this is a theorem, but it is almost a theorem).

          • One of the players can probably force exchange of bishops and get it to rook endgame with equal number of pawns.

          • Both players are 2800+ and it is a classical game, so enough time to think and make the right moves.


          EDIT: You can look at the game discussed here, where one side has Rook along with 'a' and 'c' pawns, while the other side just has a rook and the game is still a draw.






          share|improve this answer

























            up vote
            6
            down vote



            accepted







            up vote
            6
            down vote



            accepted






            Some points to consider:




            • No passed pawn

            • All rook endgames with equal number of pawns in its own half are drawn (I do not know if this is a theorem, but it is almost a theorem).

            • One of the players can probably force exchange of bishops and get it to rook endgame with equal number of pawns.

            • Both players are 2800+ and it is a classical game, so enough time to think and make the right moves.


            EDIT: You can look at the game discussed here, where one side has Rook along with 'a' and 'c' pawns, while the other side just has a rook and the game is still a draw.






            share|improve this answer














            Some points to consider:




            • No passed pawn

            • All rook endgames with equal number of pawns in its own half are drawn (I do not know if this is a theorem, but it is almost a theorem).

            • One of the players can probably force exchange of bishops and get it to rook endgame with equal number of pawns.

            • Both players are 2800+ and it is a classical game, so enough time to think and make the right moves.


            EDIT: You can look at the game discussed here, where one side has Rook along with 'a' and 'c' pawns, while the other side just has a rook and the game is still a draw.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited Dec 4 at 5:10

























            answered Dec 4 at 4:52









            Leg

            535210




            535210






















                up vote
                6
                down vote













                Computer engines are of little use in positions like this. Still it is a pretty obvious draw, because of:




                • equal (and very limited) material

                • pawns on the same side of the board

                • no weaknesses for either player

                • active and safe kings


                In order to win this, one would have to win material or promote a pawn, neither of which can be forced.






                share|improve this answer

























                  up vote
                  6
                  down vote













                  Computer engines are of little use in positions like this. Still it is a pretty obvious draw, because of:




                  • equal (and very limited) material

                  • pawns on the same side of the board

                  • no weaknesses for either player

                  • active and safe kings


                  In order to win this, one would have to win material or promote a pawn, neither of which can be forced.






                  share|improve this answer























                    up vote
                    6
                    down vote










                    up vote
                    6
                    down vote









                    Computer engines are of little use in positions like this. Still it is a pretty obvious draw, because of:




                    • equal (and very limited) material

                    • pawns on the same side of the board

                    • no weaknesses for either player

                    • active and safe kings


                    In order to win this, one would have to win material or promote a pawn, neither of which can be forced.






                    share|improve this answer












                    Computer engines are of little use in positions like this. Still it is a pretty obvious draw, because of:




                    • equal (and very limited) material

                    • pawns on the same side of the board

                    • no weaknesses for either player

                    • active and safe kings


                    In order to win this, one would have to win material or promote a pawn, neither of which can be forced.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered Dec 3 at 22:31









                    user1583209

                    11.7k11452




                    11.7k11452






















                        up vote
                        1
                        down vote













                        I'll add a few points to the answers already given:




                        1. If both sides exchanged all their pawns, the game is a draw, because R+B vs. R+B is a draw. In fact R+B vs. R is a draw . Think about this for a moment: it means that if either side can exchange their bishop for all three of the other side's pawns, they're the only side that can win (since they can still theoretically promote a pawn while the opponent will never be able to checkmate them).

                        2. Obviously from that position, for either side to win, they must push their pawns to promotion. But there are no passed pawns. What's likely to happen after the pawn pushes is that the pawns are going to be exchanged.

                        3. Neither side has a material advantage.


                        You can imagine what's likely to happen if both players had played on. Because of #2, pawns will be pushed and likely exchanged. Because of #3, there's a good chance all the pawns are exchanged. If either side is to have any hope of winning, it needs to be able to win a pawn for nothing. But even if that happens, some pawns are still likely to have been exchanged, leaving a R+B+P vs. R+B scenario ... and then the side with the R+B can just sacrifice the Bishop for the pawn and the game is drawn by #1.






                        share|improve this answer

























                          up vote
                          1
                          down vote













                          I'll add a few points to the answers already given:




                          1. If both sides exchanged all their pawns, the game is a draw, because R+B vs. R+B is a draw. In fact R+B vs. R is a draw . Think about this for a moment: it means that if either side can exchange their bishop for all three of the other side's pawns, they're the only side that can win (since they can still theoretically promote a pawn while the opponent will never be able to checkmate them).

                          2. Obviously from that position, for either side to win, they must push their pawns to promotion. But there are no passed pawns. What's likely to happen after the pawn pushes is that the pawns are going to be exchanged.

                          3. Neither side has a material advantage.


                          You can imagine what's likely to happen if both players had played on. Because of #2, pawns will be pushed and likely exchanged. Because of #3, there's a good chance all the pawns are exchanged. If either side is to have any hope of winning, it needs to be able to win a pawn for nothing. But even if that happens, some pawns are still likely to have been exchanged, leaving a R+B+P vs. R+B scenario ... and then the side with the R+B can just sacrifice the Bishop for the pawn and the game is drawn by #1.






                          share|improve this answer























                            up vote
                            1
                            down vote










                            up vote
                            1
                            down vote









                            I'll add a few points to the answers already given:




                            1. If both sides exchanged all their pawns, the game is a draw, because R+B vs. R+B is a draw. In fact R+B vs. R is a draw . Think about this for a moment: it means that if either side can exchange their bishop for all three of the other side's pawns, they're the only side that can win (since they can still theoretically promote a pawn while the opponent will never be able to checkmate them).

                            2. Obviously from that position, for either side to win, they must push their pawns to promotion. But there are no passed pawns. What's likely to happen after the pawn pushes is that the pawns are going to be exchanged.

                            3. Neither side has a material advantage.


                            You can imagine what's likely to happen if both players had played on. Because of #2, pawns will be pushed and likely exchanged. Because of #3, there's a good chance all the pawns are exchanged. If either side is to have any hope of winning, it needs to be able to win a pawn for nothing. But even if that happens, some pawns are still likely to have been exchanged, leaving a R+B+P vs. R+B scenario ... and then the side with the R+B can just sacrifice the Bishop for the pawn and the game is drawn by #1.






                            share|improve this answer












                            I'll add a few points to the answers already given:




                            1. If both sides exchanged all their pawns, the game is a draw, because R+B vs. R+B is a draw. In fact R+B vs. R is a draw . Think about this for a moment: it means that if either side can exchange their bishop for all three of the other side's pawns, they're the only side that can win (since they can still theoretically promote a pawn while the opponent will never be able to checkmate them).

                            2. Obviously from that position, for either side to win, they must push their pawns to promotion. But there are no passed pawns. What's likely to happen after the pawn pushes is that the pawns are going to be exchanged.

                            3. Neither side has a material advantage.


                            You can imagine what's likely to happen if both players had played on. Because of #2, pawns will be pushed and likely exchanged. Because of #3, there's a good chance all the pawns are exchanged. If either side is to have any hope of winning, it needs to be able to win a pawn for nothing. But even if that happens, some pawns are still likely to have been exchanged, leaving a R+B+P vs. R+B scenario ... and then the side with the R+B can just sacrifice the Bishop for the pawn and the game is drawn by #1.







                            share|improve this answer












                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer










                            answered Dec 7 at 0:56









                            Allure

                            621115




                            621115






























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