Are Jordan “Formable” matrices closed under multiplication?












5














After learning about Jordan Canonical Form, I began thinking about if you have two matrices $A, B in M_n(mathbb{R}),$ whether or not their product $AB$ will also have a Jordan Canonical Form. Trivially, if we consider polynomials in $ M_n(mathbb{C})$ then our polynomial will always have roots in the field. So, from what I understand, this is equivalent to asking whether or not the characteristic polynomial of $AB$ will have real roots.



I began playing around with the $2 times 2$ case and if we have that $AB$ has a negative determinant then we can't have that the eigenvalues of $AB$ are in $mathbb{C},$ since they must multiply to the determinant, but since the complex eigenvalues always come in a conjugate pair, that would mean that their product is always positive. I am not sure how I can break down the case if the determinant is positive.



Finally, my own intuition says matrices which have Jordan form will be closed under multiplication. This is because if we think about what matrices with strictly, real eigenvalues do, they simply reflect and stretch space. So I don't believe it is possible to find two matrices whose product matrix will be a rotation in the plane.



Also, I couldn't find this question asked elsewhere, but if it has an answer, I'd be happy to read it.










share|cite|improve this question


















  • 3




    Consider 2 different reflections. Each of them has eigenvalues 1 and -1. However, their composition is a rotation with complex eigenvalues.
    – I like Serena
    Nov 15 at 22:33






  • 2




    @IlikeSerena That's a particularly nice way to resolve the question---would you consider promoting your comment to an answer?
    – Travis
    Nov 16 at 0:13






  • 2




    Thank you @Travis. Done.
    – I like Serena
    Nov 16 at 0:20
















5














After learning about Jordan Canonical Form, I began thinking about if you have two matrices $A, B in M_n(mathbb{R}),$ whether or not their product $AB$ will also have a Jordan Canonical Form. Trivially, if we consider polynomials in $ M_n(mathbb{C})$ then our polynomial will always have roots in the field. So, from what I understand, this is equivalent to asking whether or not the characteristic polynomial of $AB$ will have real roots.



I began playing around with the $2 times 2$ case and if we have that $AB$ has a negative determinant then we can't have that the eigenvalues of $AB$ are in $mathbb{C},$ since they must multiply to the determinant, but since the complex eigenvalues always come in a conjugate pair, that would mean that their product is always positive. I am not sure how I can break down the case if the determinant is positive.



Finally, my own intuition says matrices which have Jordan form will be closed under multiplication. This is because if we think about what matrices with strictly, real eigenvalues do, they simply reflect and stretch space. So I don't believe it is possible to find two matrices whose product matrix will be a rotation in the plane.



Also, I couldn't find this question asked elsewhere, but if it has an answer, I'd be happy to read it.










share|cite|improve this question


















  • 3




    Consider 2 different reflections. Each of them has eigenvalues 1 and -1. However, their composition is a rotation with complex eigenvalues.
    – I like Serena
    Nov 15 at 22:33






  • 2




    @IlikeSerena That's a particularly nice way to resolve the question---would you consider promoting your comment to an answer?
    – Travis
    Nov 16 at 0:13






  • 2




    Thank you @Travis. Done.
    – I like Serena
    Nov 16 at 0:20














5












5








5


1





After learning about Jordan Canonical Form, I began thinking about if you have two matrices $A, B in M_n(mathbb{R}),$ whether or not their product $AB$ will also have a Jordan Canonical Form. Trivially, if we consider polynomials in $ M_n(mathbb{C})$ then our polynomial will always have roots in the field. So, from what I understand, this is equivalent to asking whether or not the characteristic polynomial of $AB$ will have real roots.



I began playing around with the $2 times 2$ case and if we have that $AB$ has a negative determinant then we can't have that the eigenvalues of $AB$ are in $mathbb{C},$ since they must multiply to the determinant, but since the complex eigenvalues always come in a conjugate pair, that would mean that their product is always positive. I am not sure how I can break down the case if the determinant is positive.



Finally, my own intuition says matrices which have Jordan form will be closed under multiplication. This is because if we think about what matrices with strictly, real eigenvalues do, they simply reflect and stretch space. So I don't believe it is possible to find two matrices whose product matrix will be a rotation in the plane.



Also, I couldn't find this question asked elsewhere, but if it has an answer, I'd be happy to read it.










share|cite|improve this question













After learning about Jordan Canonical Form, I began thinking about if you have two matrices $A, B in M_n(mathbb{R}),$ whether or not their product $AB$ will also have a Jordan Canonical Form. Trivially, if we consider polynomials in $ M_n(mathbb{C})$ then our polynomial will always have roots in the field. So, from what I understand, this is equivalent to asking whether or not the characteristic polynomial of $AB$ will have real roots.



I began playing around with the $2 times 2$ case and if we have that $AB$ has a negative determinant then we can't have that the eigenvalues of $AB$ are in $mathbb{C},$ since they must multiply to the determinant, but since the complex eigenvalues always come in a conjugate pair, that would mean that their product is always positive. I am not sure how I can break down the case if the determinant is positive.



Finally, my own intuition says matrices which have Jordan form will be closed under multiplication. This is because if we think about what matrices with strictly, real eigenvalues do, they simply reflect and stretch space. So I don't believe it is possible to find two matrices whose product matrix will be a rotation in the plane.



Also, I couldn't find this question asked elsewhere, but if it has an answer, I'd be happy to read it.







linear-algebra abstract-algebra






share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question











share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question










asked Nov 15 at 21:00









Josabanks

936




936








  • 3




    Consider 2 different reflections. Each of them has eigenvalues 1 and -1. However, their composition is a rotation with complex eigenvalues.
    – I like Serena
    Nov 15 at 22:33






  • 2




    @IlikeSerena That's a particularly nice way to resolve the question---would you consider promoting your comment to an answer?
    – Travis
    Nov 16 at 0:13






  • 2




    Thank you @Travis. Done.
    – I like Serena
    Nov 16 at 0:20














  • 3




    Consider 2 different reflections. Each of them has eigenvalues 1 and -1. However, their composition is a rotation with complex eigenvalues.
    – I like Serena
    Nov 15 at 22:33






  • 2




    @IlikeSerena That's a particularly nice way to resolve the question---would you consider promoting your comment to an answer?
    – Travis
    Nov 16 at 0:13






  • 2




    Thank you @Travis. Done.
    – I like Serena
    Nov 16 at 0:20








3




3




Consider 2 different reflections. Each of them has eigenvalues 1 and -1. However, their composition is a rotation with complex eigenvalues.
– I like Serena
Nov 15 at 22:33




Consider 2 different reflections. Each of them has eigenvalues 1 and -1. However, their composition is a rotation with complex eigenvalues.
– I like Serena
Nov 15 at 22:33




2




2




@IlikeSerena That's a particularly nice way to resolve the question---would you consider promoting your comment to an answer?
– Travis
Nov 16 at 0:13




@IlikeSerena That's a particularly nice way to resolve the question---would you consider promoting your comment to an answer?
– Travis
Nov 16 at 0:13




2




2




Thank you @Travis. Done.
– I like Serena
Nov 16 at 0:20




Thank you @Travis. Done.
– I like Serena
Nov 16 at 0:20










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















6














This is false already in the $2 times 2$ case. Consider the matrices



$$A = left[ begin{array}{cc} -1 & 2 \ -2 & 3 end{array} right], B = left[ begin{array}{cc} 3 & 0 \ 0 & 1 end{array} right]$$



$B$ has eigenvalues $3, 1$, and the characteristic polynomial of $A$ is $t^2 - 2t + 1 = (t - 1)^2$, so $A$ has eigenvalues $1, 1$. But



$$AB = left[ begin{array}{cc} -3 & 2 \ -6 & 3 end{array} right]$$



has characteristic polynomial $t^2 + 3$, so has eigenvalues $pm i sqrt{3}$.



I found these matrices by first taking $B$ to be diagonal with diagonal entries $s, 1$ and then looked at the effect multiplication by $B$ had on the characteristic polynomial of a generic $A$. It's possible to choose $s$ so that $AB$ has trace zero, so then we just need its determinant to be positive to guarantee that it has complex eigenvalues.






share|cite|improve this answer































    7














    Consider 2 reflections. Each of them has eigenvalues 1 and -1. However, their composition is generally a rotation with complex eigenvalues.



    So the product $AB$ of two real matrices $A$ and $B$ with Jordan Canonical Forms does not necessarily have a Jordan Canonical Form as well.






    share|cite|improve this answer



















    • 1




      Well, in the generic case, yes - or more precisely, when the lines of reflection aren't coincident or perpendicular. For example, the reflections about the $x$-axis and $y$-axis compose to rotation by $pi$, or $-I$ which is diagonal.
      – Daniel Schepler
      Nov 16 at 1:35










    • I've clarified that it's 'generally'.
      – I like Serena
      Nov 16 at 10:28



















    4














    Every square matrix $A$ over any field is similar to its own transpose via a non-singular symmetric matrix $S$ (see Taussky and Zassenhaus, On the similarity transformation between a matrix and its transpose).



    If $A=SA^TS^{-1}$ for a symmetric $S$, then $SA^T=AS=(SA^T)^T$, i.e. $SA^T$ is symmetric. Similarly for $A^TS^{-1}$. Consequently, every square matrix can be written as a product of two symmetric matrices (because $A=(SA^T)S^{-1}=S(A^TS^{-1})$) and one of them can be chosen to be non-singular.



    It follows immediately that the answer to your question is negative unless $n=1$.






    share|cite|improve this answer























      Your Answer





      StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
      return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
      StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
      StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
      });
      });
      }, "mathjax-editing");

      StackExchange.ready(function() {
      var channelOptions = {
      tags: "".split(" "),
      id: "69"
      };
      initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

      StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
      // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
      if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
      StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
      createEditor();
      });
      }
      else {
      createEditor();
      }
      });

      function createEditor() {
      StackExchange.prepareEditor({
      heartbeatType: 'answer',
      autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
      convertImagesToLinks: true,
      noModals: true,
      showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
      reputationToPostImages: 10,
      bindNavPrevention: true,
      postfix: "",
      imageUploader: {
      brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
      contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
      allowUrls: true
      },
      noCode: true, onDemand: true,
      discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
      ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
      });


      }
      });














      draft saved

      draft discarded


















      StackExchange.ready(
      function () {
      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3000326%2fare-jordan-formable-matrices-closed-under-multiplication%23new-answer', 'question_page');
      }
      );

      Post as a guest















      Required, but never shown

























      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes








      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      6














      This is false already in the $2 times 2$ case. Consider the matrices



      $$A = left[ begin{array}{cc} -1 & 2 \ -2 & 3 end{array} right], B = left[ begin{array}{cc} 3 & 0 \ 0 & 1 end{array} right]$$



      $B$ has eigenvalues $3, 1$, and the characteristic polynomial of $A$ is $t^2 - 2t + 1 = (t - 1)^2$, so $A$ has eigenvalues $1, 1$. But



      $$AB = left[ begin{array}{cc} -3 & 2 \ -6 & 3 end{array} right]$$



      has characteristic polynomial $t^2 + 3$, so has eigenvalues $pm i sqrt{3}$.



      I found these matrices by first taking $B$ to be diagonal with diagonal entries $s, 1$ and then looked at the effect multiplication by $B$ had on the characteristic polynomial of a generic $A$. It's possible to choose $s$ so that $AB$ has trace zero, so then we just need its determinant to be positive to guarantee that it has complex eigenvalues.






      share|cite|improve this answer




























        6














        This is false already in the $2 times 2$ case. Consider the matrices



        $$A = left[ begin{array}{cc} -1 & 2 \ -2 & 3 end{array} right], B = left[ begin{array}{cc} 3 & 0 \ 0 & 1 end{array} right]$$



        $B$ has eigenvalues $3, 1$, and the characteristic polynomial of $A$ is $t^2 - 2t + 1 = (t - 1)^2$, so $A$ has eigenvalues $1, 1$. But



        $$AB = left[ begin{array}{cc} -3 & 2 \ -6 & 3 end{array} right]$$



        has characteristic polynomial $t^2 + 3$, so has eigenvalues $pm i sqrt{3}$.



        I found these matrices by first taking $B$ to be diagonal with diagonal entries $s, 1$ and then looked at the effect multiplication by $B$ had on the characteristic polynomial of a generic $A$. It's possible to choose $s$ so that $AB$ has trace zero, so then we just need its determinant to be positive to guarantee that it has complex eigenvalues.






        share|cite|improve this answer


























          6












          6








          6






          This is false already in the $2 times 2$ case. Consider the matrices



          $$A = left[ begin{array}{cc} -1 & 2 \ -2 & 3 end{array} right], B = left[ begin{array}{cc} 3 & 0 \ 0 & 1 end{array} right]$$



          $B$ has eigenvalues $3, 1$, and the characteristic polynomial of $A$ is $t^2 - 2t + 1 = (t - 1)^2$, so $A$ has eigenvalues $1, 1$. But



          $$AB = left[ begin{array}{cc} -3 & 2 \ -6 & 3 end{array} right]$$



          has characteristic polynomial $t^2 + 3$, so has eigenvalues $pm i sqrt{3}$.



          I found these matrices by first taking $B$ to be diagonal with diagonal entries $s, 1$ and then looked at the effect multiplication by $B$ had on the characteristic polynomial of a generic $A$. It's possible to choose $s$ so that $AB$ has trace zero, so then we just need its determinant to be positive to guarantee that it has complex eigenvalues.






          share|cite|improve this answer














          This is false already in the $2 times 2$ case. Consider the matrices



          $$A = left[ begin{array}{cc} -1 & 2 \ -2 & 3 end{array} right], B = left[ begin{array}{cc} 3 & 0 \ 0 & 1 end{array} right]$$



          $B$ has eigenvalues $3, 1$, and the characteristic polynomial of $A$ is $t^2 - 2t + 1 = (t - 1)^2$, so $A$ has eigenvalues $1, 1$. But



          $$AB = left[ begin{array}{cc} -3 & 2 \ -6 & 3 end{array} right]$$



          has characteristic polynomial $t^2 + 3$, so has eigenvalues $pm i sqrt{3}$.



          I found these matrices by first taking $B$ to be diagonal with diagonal entries $s, 1$ and then looked at the effect multiplication by $B$ had on the characteristic polynomial of a generic $A$. It's possible to choose $s$ so that $AB$ has trace zero, so then we just need its determinant to be positive to guarantee that it has complex eigenvalues.







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited Nov 16 at 0:23









          Trevor Gunn

          14.2k32046




          14.2k32046










          answered Nov 15 at 22:25









          Qiaochu Yuan

          277k32581919




          277k32581919























              7














              Consider 2 reflections. Each of them has eigenvalues 1 and -1. However, their composition is generally a rotation with complex eigenvalues.



              So the product $AB$ of two real matrices $A$ and $B$ with Jordan Canonical Forms does not necessarily have a Jordan Canonical Form as well.






              share|cite|improve this answer



















              • 1




                Well, in the generic case, yes - or more precisely, when the lines of reflection aren't coincident or perpendicular. For example, the reflections about the $x$-axis and $y$-axis compose to rotation by $pi$, or $-I$ which is diagonal.
                – Daniel Schepler
                Nov 16 at 1:35










              • I've clarified that it's 'generally'.
                – I like Serena
                Nov 16 at 10:28
















              7














              Consider 2 reflections. Each of them has eigenvalues 1 and -1. However, their composition is generally a rotation with complex eigenvalues.



              So the product $AB$ of two real matrices $A$ and $B$ with Jordan Canonical Forms does not necessarily have a Jordan Canonical Form as well.






              share|cite|improve this answer



















              • 1




                Well, in the generic case, yes - or more precisely, when the lines of reflection aren't coincident or perpendicular. For example, the reflections about the $x$-axis and $y$-axis compose to rotation by $pi$, or $-I$ which is diagonal.
                – Daniel Schepler
                Nov 16 at 1:35










              • I've clarified that it's 'generally'.
                – I like Serena
                Nov 16 at 10:28














              7












              7








              7






              Consider 2 reflections. Each of them has eigenvalues 1 and -1. However, their composition is generally a rotation with complex eigenvalues.



              So the product $AB$ of two real matrices $A$ and $B$ with Jordan Canonical Forms does not necessarily have a Jordan Canonical Form as well.






              share|cite|improve this answer














              Consider 2 reflections. Each of them has eigenvalues 1 and -1. However, their composition is generally a rotation with complex eigenvalues.



              So the product $AB$ of two real matrices $A$ and $B$ with Jordan Canonical Forms does not necessarily have a Jordan Canonical Form as well.







              share|cite|improve this answer














              share|cite|improve this answer



              share|cite|improve this answer








              edited Nov 16 at 10:27

























              answered Nov 16 at 0:19









              I like Serena

              3,6721718




              3,6721718








              • 1




                Well, in the generic case, yes - or more precisely, when the lines of reflection aren't coincident or perpendicular. For example, the reflections about the $x$-axis and $y$-axis compose to rotation by $pi$, or $-I$ which is diagonal.
                – Daniel Schepler
                Nov 16 at 1:35










              • I've clarified that it's 'generally'.
                – I like Serena
                Nov 16 at 10:28














              • 1




                Well, in the generic case, yes - or more precisely, when the lines of reflection aren't coincident or perpendicular. For example, the reflections about the $x$-axis and $y$-axis compose to rotation by $pi$, or $-I$ which is diagonal.
                – Daniel Schepler
                Nov 16 at 1:35










              • I've clarified that it's 'generally'.
                – I like Serena
                Nov 16 at 10:28








              1




              1




              Well, in the generic case, yes - or more precisely, when the lines of reflection aren't coincident or perpendicular. For example, the reflections about the $x$-axis and $y$-axis compose to rotation by $pi$, or $-I$ which is diagonal.
              – Daniel Schepler
              Nov 16 at 1:35




              Well, in the generic case, yes - or more precisely, when the lines of reflection aren't coincident or perpendicular. For example, the reflections about the $x$-axis and $y$-axis compose to rotation by $pi$, or $-I$ which is diagonal.
              – Daniel Schepler
              Nov 16 at 1:35












              I've clarified that it's 'generally'.
              – I like Serena
              Nov 16 at 10:28




              I've clarified that it's 'generally'.
              – I like Serena
              Nov 16 at 10:28











              4














              Every square matrix $A$ over any field is similar to its own transpose via a non-singular symmetric matrix $S$ (see Taussky and Zassenhaus, On the similarity transformation between a matrix and its transpose).



              If $A=SA^TS^{-1}$ for a symmetric $S$, then $SA^T=AS=(SA^T)^T$, i.e. $SA^T$ is symmetric. Similarly for $A^TS^{-1}$. Consequently, every square matrix can be written as a product of two symmetric matrices (because $A=(SA^T)S^{-1}=S(A^TS^{-1})$) and one of them can be chosen to be non-singular.



              It follows immediately that the answer to your question is negative unless $n=1$.






              share|cite|improve this answer




























                4














                Every square matrix $A$ over any field is similar to its own transpose via a non-singular symmetric matrix $S$ (see Taussky and Zassenhaus, On the similarity transformation between a matrix and its transpose).



                If $A=SA^TS^{-1}$ for a symmetric $S$, then $SA^T=AS=(SA^T)^T$, i.e. $SA^T$ is symmetric. Similarly for $A^TS^{-1}$. Consequently, every square matrix can be written as a product of two symmetric matrices (because $A=(SA^T)S^{-1}=S(A^TS^{-1})$) and one of them can be chosen to be non-singular.



                It follows immediately that the answer to your question is negative unless $n=1$.






                share|cite|improve this answer


























                  4












                  4








                  4






                  Every square matrix $A$ over any field is similar to its own transpose via a non-singular symmetric matrix $S$ (see Taussky and Zassenhaus, On the similarity transformation between a matrix and its transpose).



                  If $A=SA^TS^{-1}$ for a symmetric $S$, then $SA^T=AS=(SA^T)^T$, i.e. $SA^T$ is symmetric. Similarly for $A^TS^{-1}$. Consequently, every square matrix can be written as a product of two symmetric matrices (because $A=(SA^T)S^{-1}=S(A^TS^{-1})$) and one of them can be chosen to be non-singular.



                  It follows immediately that the answer to your question is negative unless $n=1$.






                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  Every square matrix $A$ over any field is similar to its own transpose via a non-singular symmetric matrix $S$ (see Taussky and Zassenhaus, On the similarity transformation between a matrix and its transpose).



                  If $A=SA^TS^{-1}$ for a symmetric $S$, then $SA^T=AS=(SA^T)^T$, i.e. $SA^T$ is symmetric. Similarly for $A^TS^{-1}$. Consequently, every square matrix can be written as a product of two symmetric matrices (because $A=(SA^T)S^{-1}=S(A^TS^{-1})$) and one of them can be chosen to be non-singular.



                  It follows immediately that the answer to your question is negative unless $n=1$.







                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  edited Nov 28 at 15:12

























                  answered Nov 16 at 10:28









                  user1551

                  71.2k566125




                  71.2k566125






























                      draft saved

                      draft discarded




















































                      Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!


                      • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                      But avoid



                      • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                      • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                      Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                      To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.





                      Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.


                      Please pay close attention to the following guidance:


                      • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                      But avoid



                      • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                      • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                      To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                      draft saved


                      draft discarded














                      StackExchange.ready(
                      function () {
                      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3000326%2fare-jordan-formable-matrices-closed-under-multiplication%23new-answer', 'question_page');
                      }
                      );

                      Post as a guest















                      Required, but never shown





















































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown

































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown







                      Popular posts from this blog

                      Biblatex bibliography style without URLs when DOI exists (in Overleaf with Zotero bibliography)

                      ComboBox Display Member on multiple fields

                      Is it possible to collect Nectar points via Trainline?