Frattini subgroup of a finite group












6












$begingroup$


I have been looking for information about the Frattini subgroup of a finite group. Almost all the books dealing with this topic discuss this subgroup for $p$-groups.



I am actually willing to discuss the following questions:



Let $G$ be a finite group. Is the Frattini subgroup of $G$ abelian?



Why is the order of the Frattini factor divisible by each prime divisor of $|G|$?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    No to the first question. Counterexample? Choose a finite non-abelian $;p$-group with non-abelian maximal proper subgroup. For the second question: for any such prime divisor there is a maximal subgroup divisible by that prime...
    $endgroup$
    – DonAntonio
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:26












  • $begingroup$
    and it is enough to find only one maximal subgroup with order divisible by the prime?
    $endgroup$
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:29










  • $begingroup$
    for get that: I misread that last part since, obviously, if the Frattini subgroup is trivial then it cannot be divided any any prime...yet you're talking of the Frattini factor...do you mean the quotient $;G/Phi(G);$ ?
    $endgroup$
    – DonAntonio
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:37










  • $begingroup$
    do you recommend any reference?
    $endgroup$
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:44
















6












$begingroup$


I have been looking for information about the Frattini subgroup of a finite group. Almost all the books dealing with this topic discuss this subgroup for $p$-groups.



I am actually willing to discuss the following questions:



Let $G$ be a finite group. Is the Frattini subgroup of $G$ abelian?



Why is the order of the Frattini factor divisible by each prime divisor of $|G|$?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    No to the first question. Counterexample? Choose a finite non-abelian $;p$-group with non-abelian maximal proper subgroup. For the second question: for any such prime divisor there is a maximal subgroup divisible by that prime...
    $endgroup$
    – DonAntonio
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:26












  • $begingroup$
    and it is enough to find only one maximal subgroup with order divisible by the prime?
    $endgroup$
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:29










  • $begingroup$
    for get that: I misread that last part since, obviously, if the Frattini subgroup is trivial then it cannot be divided any any prime...yet you're talking of the Frattini factor...do you mean the quotient $;G/Phi(G);$ ?
    $endgroup$
    – DonAntonio
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:37










  • $begingroup$
    do you recommend any reference?
    $endgroup$
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:44














6












6








6


1



$begingroup$


I have been looking for information about the Frattini subgroup of a finite group. Almost all the books dealing with this topic discuss this subgroup for $p$-groups.



I am actually willing to discuss the following questions:



Let $G$ be a finite group. Is the Frattini subgroup of $G$ abelian?



Why is the order of the Frattini factor divisible by each prime divisor of $|G|$?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




I have been looking for information about the Frattini subgroup of a finite group. Almost all the books dealing with this topic discuss this subgroup for $p$-groups.



I am actually willing to discuss the following questions:



Let $G$ be a finite group. Is the Frattini subgroup of $G$ abelian?



Why is the order of the Frattini factor divisible by each prime divisor of $|G|$?







group-theory reference-request finite-groups






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Dec 4 '18 at 0:31









the_fox

2,89021537




2,89021537










asked Apr 23 '14 at 14:22









user145150user145150

454




454












  • $begingroup$
    No to the first question. Counterexample? Choose a finite non-abelian $;p$-group with non-abelian maximal proper subgroup. For the second question: for any such prime divisor there is a maximal subgroup divisible by that prime...
    $endgroup$
    – DonAntonio
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:26












  • $begingroup$
    and it is enough to find only one maximal subgroup with order divisible by the prime?
    $endgroup$
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:29










  • $begingroup$
    for get that: I misread that last part since, obviously, if the Frattini subgroup is trivial then it cannot be divided any any prime...yet you're talking of the Frattini factor...do you mean the quotient $;G/Phi(G);$ ?
    $endgroup$
    – DonAntonio
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:37










  • $begingroup$
    do you recommend any reference?
    $endgroup$
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:44


















  • $begingroup$
    No to the first question. Counterexample? Choose a finite non-abelian $;p$-group with non-abelian maximal proper subgroup. For the second question: for any such prime divisor there is a maximal subgroup divisible by that prime...
    $endgroup$
    – DonAntonio
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:26












  • $begingroup$
    and it is enough to find only one maximal subgroup with order divisible by the prime?
    $endgroup$
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:29










  • $begingroup$
    for get that: I misread that last part since, obviously, if the Frattini subgroup is trivial then it cannot be divided any any prime...yet you're talking of the Frattini factor...do you mean the quotient $;G/Phi(G);$ ?
    $endgroup$
    – DonAntonio
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:37










  • $begingroup$
    do you recommend any reference?
    $endgroup$
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:44
















$begingroup$
No to the first question. Counterexample? Choose a finite non-abelian $;p$-group with non-abelian maximal proper subgroup. For the second question: for any such prime divisor there is a maximal subgroup divisible by that prime...
$endgroup$
– DonAntonio
Apr 23 '14 at 14:26






$begingroup$
No to the first question. Counterexample? Choose a finite non-abelian $;p$-group with non-abelian maximal proper subgroup. For the second question: for any such prime divisor there is a maximal subgroup divisible by that prime...
$endgroup$
– DonAntonio
Apr 23 '14 at 14:26














$begingroup$
and it is enough to find only one maximal subgroup with order divisible by the prime?
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:29




$begingroup$
and it is enough to find only one maximal subgroup with order divisible by the prime?
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:29












$begingroup$
for get that: I misread that last part since, obviously, if the Frattini subgroup is trivial then it cannot be divided any any prime...yet you're talking of the Frattini factor...do you mean the quotient $;G/Phi(G);$ ?
$endgroup$
– DonAntonio
Apr 23 '14 at 14:37




$begingroup$
for get that: I misread that last part since, obviously, if the Frattini subgroup is trivial then it cannot be divided any any prime...yet you're talking of the Frattini factor...do you mean the quotient $;G/Phi(G);$ ?
$endgroup$
– DonAntonio
Apr 23 '14 at 14:37












$begingroup$
do you recommend any reference?
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:44




$begingroup$
do you recommend any reference?
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:44










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















10












$begingroup$

Here is a proof that, for a finite group $G$, $|G/Phi(G)|$ is divisible by all primes $p$ dividing $|G|$. It uses the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem. I don't know whether that can be avoided.



First note that each Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $Phi(G)$ is normal in $G$. (So, in particular, $Phi(G)$ is nilpotent.) To see that, we have $G = Phi(G)N_G(P)$ by the Frattini Argument, and then by the fact that $Phi(G)$ consists of the non-generators of $G$, we have $G = N_G(P)$.



Now if there is a prime $p$ dividing $|G|$ but not dividing $|G/Phi(G)|$, then $Phi(G)$ contains a Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $G$ and $P unlhd G$. So, by the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem, $P$ has a complement $H$ in $G$. Let $M$ be a maximal subgroup of $G$ containing $H$. Then $p$ divides $|G:M|$ and hence $p$ divides $|G/Phi(G)|$, contradiction.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Thanks, I did not find any reference for the proof
    $endgroup$
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:54



















5












$begingroup$

To find a finite group with non-abelian Frattini subgroup, you'll need a group with a non-abelian maximal subgroup, but that does not suffice. The dihedral group of order 16 has a maximal subgroup isomorphic to the dihedral group of order 8, but the Frattini subgroup of a non-cyclic group of order 16 has order at most 4, so is abelian (it is Klein 4 in this case).



The smallest examples have order 64. One particular example is given by a matrix group:$$G=leftlangle begin{bmatrix} 0 & 1 & 0 \ 1 & 2 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix},
begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 & 1 \ 0 & 1 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix} mod 4rightrangle leq operatorname{GL}(2,mathbb{Z}/4mathbb{Z})$$
which is a semi-direct product of $C_4$ acting on $C_4 times C_4$. Its Frattini subgroup is isomorphic to $C_2 times D_8$. The only other possibility for a non-abelian Frattini subgroup of a group of order 64 is $C_2 times Q_8$.



One reason books emphasize Frattini subgroups of $p$-groups is that they have a very nice definition there: $Phi(G) = G^p [G,G]$. Hence calculations and theorems are much easier. For solvable groups, there is still some research into embedding properties related to the Frattini subgroup, and for non-solvable groups, there are significant questions left open.



I gave an answer you might be interested in, describing the groups that can occur as Frattini subgroups. In particular, some non-abelian groups are on the list. :-)






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    so if I could construct the frattini subgroup for a finite group, would that be something?
    $endgroup$
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 15:51











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2 Answers
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2 Answers
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active

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active

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active

oldest

votes









10












$begingroup$

Here is a proof that, for a finite group $G$, $|G/Phi(G)|$ is divisible by all primes $p$ dividing $|G|$. It uses the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem. I don't know whether that can be avoided.



First note that each Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $Phi(G)$ is normal in $G$. (So, in particular, $Phi(G)$ is nilpotent.) To see that, we have $G = Phi(G)N_G(P)$ by the Frattini Argument, and then by the fact that $Phi(G)$ consists of the non-generators of $G$, we have $G = N_G(P)$.



Now if there is a prime $p$ dividing $|G|$ but not dividing $|G/Phi(G)|$, then $Phi(G)$ contains a Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $G$ and $P unlhd G$. So, by the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem, $P$ has a complement $H$ in $G$. Let $M$ be a maximal subgroup of $G$ containing $H$. Then $p$ divides $|G:M|$ and hence $p$ divides $|G/Phi(G)|$, contradiction.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Thanks, I did not find any reference for the proof
    $endgroup$
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:54
















10












$begingroup$

Here is a proof that, for a finite group $G$, $|G/Phi(G)|$ is divisible by all primes $p$ dividing $|G|$. It uses the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem. I don't know whether that can be avoided.



First note that each Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $Phi(G)$ is normal in $G$. (So, in particular, $Phi(G)$ is nilpotent.) To see that, we have $G = Phi(G)N_G(P)$ by the Frattini Argument, and then by the fact that $Phi(G)$ consists of the non-generators of $G$, we have $G = N_G(P)$.



Now if there is a prime $p$ dividing $|G|$ but not dividing $|G/Phi(G)|$, then $Phi(G)$ contains a Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $G$ and $P unlhd G$. So, by the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem, $P$ has a complement $H$ in $G$. Let $M$ be a maximal subgroup of $G$ containing $H$. Then $p$ divides $|G:M|$ and hence $p$ divides $|G/Phi(G)|$, contradiction.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Thanks, I did not find any reference for the proof
    $endgroup$
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:54














10












10








10





$begingroup$

Here is a proof that, for a finite group $G$, $|G/Phi(G)|$ is divisible by all primes $p$ dividing $|G|$. It uses the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem. I don't know whether that can be avoided.



First note that each Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $Phi(G)$ is normal in $G$. (So, in particular, $Phi(G)$ is nilpotent.) To see that, we have $G = Phi(G)N_G(P)$ by the Frattini Argument, and then by the fact that $Phi(G)$ consists of the non-generators of $G$, we have $G = N_G(P)$.



Now if there is a prime $p$ dividing $|G|$ but not dividing $|G/Phi(G)|$, then $Phi(G)$ contains a Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $G$ and $P unlhd G$. So, by the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem, $P$ has a complement $H$ in $G$. Let $M$ be a maximal subgroup of $G$ containing $H$. Then $p$ divides $|G:M|$ and hence $p$ divides $|G/Phi(G)|$, contradiction.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$



Here is a proof that, for a finite group $G$, $|G/Phi(G)|$ is divisible by all primes $p$ dividing $|G|$. It uses the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem. I don't know whether that can be avoided.



First note that each Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $Phi(G)$ is normal in $G$. (So, in particular, $Phi(G)$ is nilpotent.) To see that, we have $G = Phi(G)N_G(P)$ by the Frattini Argument, and then by the fact that $Phi(G)$ consists of the non-generators of $G$, we have $G = N_G(P)$.



Now if there is a prime $p$ dividing $|G|$ but not dividing $|G/Phi(G)|$, then $Phi(G)$ contains a Sylow $p$-subgroup $P$ of $G$ and $P unlhd G$. So, by the Schur-Zassenhaus Theorem, $P$ has a complement $H$ in $G$. Let $M$ be a maximal subgroup of $G$ containing $H$. Then $p$ divides $|G:M|$ and hence $p$ divides $|G/Phi(G)|$, contradiction.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered Apr 23 '14 at 14:50









Derek HoltDerek Holt

53.8k53571




53.8k53571












  • $begingroup$
    Thanks, I did not find any reference for the proof
    $endgroup$
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:54


















  • $begingroup$
    Thanks, I did not find any reference for the proof
    $endgroup$
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 14:54
















$begingroup$
Thanks, I did not find any reference for the proof
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:54




$begingroup$
Thanks, I did not find any reference for the proof
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 14:54











5












$begingroup$

To find a finite group with non-abelian Frattini subgroup, you'll need a group with a non-abelian maximal subgroup, but that does not suffice. The dihedral group of order 16 has a maximal subgroup isomorphic to the dihedral group of order 8, but the Frattini subgroup of a non-cyclic group of order 16 has order at most 4, so is abelian (it is Klein 4 in this case).



The smallest examples have order 64. One particular example is given by a matrix group:$$G=leftlangle begin{bmatrix} 0 & 1 & 0 \ 1 & 2 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix},
begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 & 1 \ 0 & 1 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix} mod 4rightrangle leq operatorname{GL}(2,mathbb{Z}/4mathbb{Z})$$
which is a semi-direct product of $C_4$ acting on $C_4 times C_4$. Its Frattini subgroup is isomorphic to $C_2 times D_8$. The only other possibility for a non-abelian Frattini subgroup of a group of order 64 is $C_2 times Q_8$.



One reason books emphasize Frattini subgroups of $p$-groups is that they have a very nice definition there: $Phi(G) = G^p [G,G]$. Hence calculations and theorems are much easier. For solvable groups, there is still some research into embedding properties related to the Frattini subgroup, and for non-solvable groups, there are significant questions left open.



I gave an answer you might be interested in, describing the groups that can occur as Frattini subgroups. In particular, some non-abelian groups are on the list. :-)






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    so if I could construct the frattini subgroup for a finite group, would that be something?
    $endgroup$
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 15:51
















5












$begingroup$

To find a finite group with non-abelian Frattini subgroup, you'll need a group with a non-abelian maximal subgroup, but that does not suffice. The dihedral group of order 16 has a maximal subgroup isomorphic to the dihedral group of order 8, but the Frattini subgroup of a non-cyclic group of order 16 has order at most 4, so is abelian (it is Klein 4 in this case).



The smallest examples have order 64. One particular example is given by a matrix group:$$G=leftlangle begin{bmatrix} 0 & 1 & 0 \ 1 & 2 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix},
begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 & 1 \ 0 & 1 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix} mod 4rightrangle leq operatorname{GL}(2,mathbb{Z}/4mathbb{Z})$$
which is a semi-direct product of $C_4$ acting on $C_4 times C_4$. Its Frattini subgroup is isomorphic to $C_2 times D_8$. The only other possibility for a non-abelian Frattini subgroup of a group of order 64 is $C_2 times Q_8$.



One reason books emphasize Frattini subgroups of $p$-groups is that they have a very nice definition there: $Phi(G) = G^p [G,G]$. Hence calculations and theorems are much easier. For solvable groups, there is still some research into embedding properties related to the Frattini subgroup, and for non-solvable groups, there are significant questions left open.



I gave an answer you might be interested in, describing the groups that can occur as Frattini subgroups. In particular, some non-abelian groups are on the list. :-)






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    so if I could construct the frattini subgroup for a finite group, would that be something?
    $endgroup$
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 15:51














5












5








5





$begingroup$

To find a finite group with non-abelian Frattini subgroup, you'll need a group with a non-abelian maximal subgroup, but that does not suffice. The dihedral group of order 16 has a maximal subgroup isomorphic to the dihedral group of order 8, but the Frattini subgroup of a non-cyclic group of order 16 has order at most 4, so is abelian (it is Klein 4 in this case).



The smallest examples have order 64. One particular example is given by a matrix group:$$G=leftlangle begin{bmatrix} 0 & 1 & 0 \ 1 & 2 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix},
begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 & 1 \ 0 & 1 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix} mod 4rightrangle leq operatorname{GL}(2,mathbb{Z}/4mathbb{Z})$$
which is a semi-direct product of $C_4$ acting on $C_4 times C_4$. Its Frattini subgroup is isomorphic to $C_2 times D_8$. The only other possibility for a non-abelian Frattini subgroup of a group of order 64 is $C_2 times Q_8$.



One reason books emphasize Frattini subgroups of $p$-groups is that they have a very nice definition there: $Phi(G) = G^p [G,G]$. Hence calculations and theorems are much easier. For solvable groups, there is still some research into embedding properties related to the Frattini subgroup, and for non-solvable groups, there are significant questions left open.



I gave an answer you might be interested in, describing the groups that can occur as Frattini subgroups. In particular, some non-abelian groups are on the list. :-)






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$



To find a finite group with non-abelian Frattini subgroup, you'll need a group with a non-abelian maximal subgroup, but that does not suffice. The dihedral group of order 16 has a maximal subgroup isomorphic to the dihedral group of order 8, but the Frattini subgroup of a non-cyclic group of order 16 has order at most 4, so is abelian (it is Klein 4 in this case).



The smallest examples have order 64. One particular example is given by a matrix group:$$G=leftlangle begin{bmatrix} 0 & 1 & 0 \ 1 & 2 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix},
begin{bmatrix} 1 & 0 & 1 \ 0 & 1 & 0 \ 0 & 0 & 1 end{bmatrix} mod 4rightrangle leq operatorname{GL}(2,mathbb{Z}/4mathbb{Z})$$
which is a semi-direct product of $C_4$ acting on $C_4 times C_4$. Its Frattini subgroup is isomorphic to $C_2 times D_8$. The only other possibility for a non-abelian Frattini subgroup of a group of order 64 is $C_2 times Q_8$.



One reason books emphasize Frattini subgroups of $p$-groups is that they have a very nice definition there: $Phi(G) = G^p [G,G]$. Hence calculations and theorems are much easier. For solvable groups, there is still some research into embedding properties related to the Frattini subgroup, and for non-solvable groups, there are significant questions left open.



I gave an answer you might be interested in, describing the groups that can occur as Frattini subgroups. In particular, some non-abelian groups are on the list. :-)







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Dec 4 '18 at 0:46









the_fox

2,89021537




2,89021537










answered Apr 23 '14 at 15:38









Jack SchmidtJack Schmidt

43.2k572152




43.2k572152












  • $begingroup$
    so if I could construct the frattini subgroup for a finite group, would that be something?
    $endgroup$
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 15:51


















  • $begingroup$
    so if I could construct the frattini subgroup for a finite group, would that be something?
    $endgroup$
    – user145150
    Apr 23 '14 at 15:51
















$begingroup$
so if I could construct the frattini subgroup for a finite group, would that be something?
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 15:51




$begingroup$
so if I could construct the frattini subgroup for a finite group, would that be something?
$endgroup$
– user145150
Apr 23 '14 at 15:51


















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