find the smallest $N$ that $varphi(n)ge5$ for every $nge N$












1












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I know that the solution is with Euler function. I could not understand how to show this. thanks.










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  • $begingroup$
    Please see math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5020
    $endgroup$
    – Lord Shark the Unknown
    Dec 29 '18 at 13:53
















1












$begingroup$


I know that the solution is with Euler function. I could not understand how to show this. thanks.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Please see math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5020
    $endgroup$
    – Lord Shark the Unknown
    Dec 29 '18 at 13:53














1












1








1





$begingroup$


I know that the solution is with Euler function. I could not understand how to show this. thanks.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




I know that the solution is with Euler function. I could not understand how to show this. thanks.







elementary-number-theory totient-function






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edited Dec 29 '18 at 13:58









Kemono Chen

3,3161844




3,3161844










asked Dec 29 '18 at 13:52









liem Mliem M

82




82












  • $begingroup$
    Please see math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5020
    $endgroup$
    – Lord Shark the Unknown
    Dec 29 '18 at 13:53


















  • $begingroup$
    Please see math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5020
    $endgroup$
    – Lord Shark the Unknown
    Dec 29 '18 at 13:53
















$begingroup$
Please see math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5020
$endgroup$
– Lord Shark the Unknown
Dec 29 '18 at 13:53




$begingroup$
Please see math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5020
$endgroup$
– Lord Shark the Unknown
Dec 29 '18 at 13:53










3 Answers
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2












$begingroup$

Hint: An equivalent problem is




Find the largest $N$ such that $varphi(N) le 4$.




Since $varphi(n) geq sqrt{n/2}$ for all $n$ (see here), we only have to consider $N le 32$.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$





















    1












    $begingroup$

    No need to resort to complicated machinery, whatsoever.



    Note that, $forall ninmathbb{Z}^+$, $(n-1,n)=(1,n)=1$. Take a prime $q$ such that, $frac{n}{2}<q<n$ (existence is justified through Bertrand's Postulate). Notice that, $(q,n)=1$ and $(n-q,n)=1$. Hence, we know that, for every $n$, $n-1,q,n-q,1$ are coprime to $n$.



    Motivated by this, note that for $n$ sufficiently large (e.g., say $n>32$), look at the intervals, $I=(n/16,n/8),(n/8,n/4),(n/4,n/2),(n/2,n)$, take one prime each, add $1$, we get $phi(n)geq 5$, hence, $n<32$ (notice, this is a very naive bound). A few finite case work establishes $n=12$ is the largest such $n$.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$





















      1












      $begingroup$

      The smallest $N$ where $phi(N) ge 5$ for every $n ge N$ would be $M + 1$ where $M$ is the largest $M$ where $phi(M) le 4$.



      Now if $gcd(n,k) = 1$ then $phi(nk) = phi(n)phi(k)$ and for any $p^m$ for a prime $p$, then $phi (p^m) = (p-1)p^{m-1} ge p-1$. So if $phi(M) le 4$ then $p le 5$ so the only possible prime factors of $M$ are $2,3$ or $5$.



      So $M = 2^a3^b5^c$ and $phi(M) = phi (2^a)phi(3^b)phi(5^c)$.



      Case 1: Now if $c ge 1$ then $phi(5^c) = 4*5^{c-1}$ so $c=1$ and $phi(M) = 4$. And $phi(3^b) = phi(2^a) =1$.



      If $bge 1$ then $phi(3^b) = (3-1)3^{b-1} = 2*3^{b-1}$ that's impossible so $b = 0$.



      If $a ge 1$ then $phi(2^a) = (2-1)2^{a-1} = 2^{a-1}$. That is possible only if $a =1$ so if $M=10$, $phi(M) =4$ and that's the largest such number that is a multiple of $5$.



      Case 2: $c=0$ and If $bge 1$: we can have $phi(3^b) = 2*3^{b-1}$. If this is to be less than or equal to $4$ we must have $b=1$ and $phi(3) = 2$ so $M= 2^a*3$ and $phi(M) = phi (2^a)phi 3 = 2phi(2^a)$.



      SO $phi(2^a) le 2$ and as $phi(2^a)= 2^{a-1}$ we may have $a = 2$ and $M = 12$ and $phi(12) = 4$



      And that's the largest such number that is a multiple of $3$.



      Case 3: $c=0; b=0$ and $M = 2^k$ so $phi(M) = phi(2^{k})=2^{k-1}le 4$. This means $k le 3$ and $M le 8$. If $M = 8$ then $phi 8 = 4$.



      And there we have it.



      $M =12$ is the largest number so that $phi(M) le 4$ and $N = 13$ is the smallest number so that for all $nge N$, $phi(n) ge 5$.



      =======



      Worth noting the only time $phi(k)$ is odd is if $k=1,2$ so $phi(k) =5$ is impossible. (If $p$ is an odd factor of $k$ then $p-1|phi(k)$. If $k = 2^k$ then $phi(2^k) = 2^{k-1}$.)



      $phi(k) ge 5; k le 12$ occur with $phi(7) = 6; phi(9)=6; phi(11)=10$



      $phi(k) = 4$ occur with $phi(5)=phi(8)= phi(10)=phi(12)= 4$



      And the rest $phi(3)=phi(4)=phi(6) = 2$.






      share|cite|improve this answer









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        3 Answers
        3






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        3 Answers
        3






        active

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        active

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        active

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        2












        $begingroup$

        Hint: An equivalent problem is




        Find the largest $N$ such that $varphi(N) le 4$.




        Since $varphi(n) geq sqrt{n/2}$ for all $n$ (see here), we only have to consider $N le 32$.






        share|cite|improve this answer











        $endgroup$


















          2












          $begingroup$

          Hint: An equivalent problem is




          Find the largest $N$ such that $varphi(N) le 4$.




          Since $varphi(n) geq sqrt{n/2}$ for all $n$ (see here), we only have to consider $N le 32$.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$
















            2












            2








            2





            $begingroup$

            Hint: An equivalent problem is




            Find the largest $N$ such that $varphi(N) le 4$.




            Since $varphi(n) geq sqrt{n/2}$ for all $n$ (see here), we only have to consider $N le 32$.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$



            Hint: An equivalent problem is




            Find the largest $N$ such that $varphi(N) le 4$.




            Since $varphi(n) geq sqrt{n/2}$ for all $n$ (see here), we only have to consider $N le 32$.







            share|cite|improve this answer














            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer








            edited Dec 30 '18 at 9:22

























            answered Dec 29 '18 at 14:03









            lhflhf

            168k11172404




            168k11172404























                1












                $begingroup$

                No need to resort to complicated machinery, whatsoever.



                Note that, $forall ninmathbb{Z}^+$, $(n-1,n)=(1,n)=1$. Take a prime $q$ such that, $frac{n}{2}<q<n$ (existence is justified through Bertrand's Postulate). Notice that, $(q,n)=1$ and $(n-q,n)=1$. Hence, we know that, for every $n$, $n-1,q,n-q,1$ are coprime to $n$.



                Motivated by this, note that for $n$ sufficiently large (e.g., say $n>32$), look at the intervals, $I=(n/16,n/8),(n/8,n/4),(n/4,n/2),(n/2,n)$, take one prime each, add $1$, we get $phi(n)geq 5$, hence, $n<32$ (notice, this is a very naive bound). A few finite case work establishes $n=12$ is the largest such $n$.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$


















                  1












                  $begingroup$

                  No need to resort to complicated machinery, whatsoever.



                  Note that, $forall ninmathbb{Z}^+$, $(n-1,n)=(1,n)=1$. Take a prime $q$ such that, $frac{n}{2}<q<n$ (existence is justified through Bertrand's Postulate). Notice that, $(q,n)=1$ and $(n-q,n)=1$. Hence, we know that, for every $n$, $n-1,q,n-q,1$ are coprime to $n$.



                  Motivated by this, note that for $n$ sufficiently large (e.g., say $n>32$), look at the intervals, $I=(n/16,n/8),(n/8,n/4),(n/4,n/2),(n/2,n)$, take one prime each, add $1$, we get $phi(n)geq 5$, hence, $n<32$ (notice, this is a very naive bound). A few finite case work establishes $n=12$ is the largest such $n$.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$
















                    1












                    1








                    1





                    $begingroup$

                    No need to resort to complicated machinery, whatsoever.



                    Note that, $forall ninmathbb{Z}^+$, $(n-1,n)=(1,n)=1$. Take a prime $q$ such that, $frac{n}{2}<q<n$ (existence is justified through Bertrand's Postulate). Notice that, $(q,n)=1$ and $(n-q,n)=1$. Hence, we know that, for every $n$, $n-1,q,n-q,1$ are coprime to $n$.



                    Motivated by this, note that for $n$ sufficiently large (e.g., say $n>32$), look at the intervals, $I=(n/16,n/8),(n/8,n/4),(n/4,n/2),(n/2,n)$, take one prime each, add $1$, we get $phi(n)geq 5$, hence, $n<32$ (notice, this is a very naive bound). A few finite case work establishes $n=12$ is the largest such $n$.






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$



                    No need to resort to complicated machinery, whatsoever.



                    Note that, $forall ninmathbb{Z}^+$, $(n-1,n)=(1,n)=1$. Take a prime $q$ such that, $frac{n}{2}<q<n$ (existence is justified through Bertrand's Postulate). Notice that, $(q,n)=1$ and $(n-q,n)=1$. Hence, we know that, for every $n$, $n-1,q,n-q,1$ are coprime to $n$.



                    Motivated by this, note that for $n$ sufficiently large (e.g., say $n>32$), look at the intervals, $I=(n/16,n/8),(n/8,n/4),(n/4,n/2),(n/2,n)$, take one prime each, add $1$, we get $phi(n)geq 5$, hence, $n<32$ (notice, this is a very naive bound). A few finite case work establishes $n=12$ is the largest such $n$.







                    share|cite|improve this answer












                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer










                    answered Dec 29 '18 at 21:16









                    AaronAaron

                    2,025415




                    2,025415























                        1












                        $begingroup$

                        The smallest $N$ where $phi(N) ge 5$ for every $n ge N$ would be $M + 1$ where $M$ is the largest $M$ where $phi(M) le 4$.



                        Now if $gcd(n,k) = 1$ then $phi(nk) = phi(n)phi(k)$ and for any $p^m$ for a prime $p$, then $phi (p^m) = (p-1)p^{m-1} ge p-1$. So if $phi(M) le 4$ then $p le 5$ so the only possible prime factors of $M$ are $2,3$ or $5$.



                        So $M = 2^a3^b5^c$ and $phi(M) = phi (2^a)phi(3^b)phi(5^c)$.



                        Case 1: Now if $c ge 1$ then $phi(5^c) = 4*5^{c-1}$ so $c=1$ and $phi(M) = 4$. And $phi(3^b) = phi(2^a) =1$.



                        If $bge 1$ then $phi(3^b) = (3-1)3^{b-1} = 2*3^{b-1}$ that's impossible so $b = 0$.



                        If $a ge 1$ then $phi(2^a) = (2-1)2^{a-1} = 2^{a-1}$. That is possible only if $a =1$ so if $M=10$, $phi(M) =4$ and that's the largest such number that is a multiple of $5$.



                        Case 2: $c=0$ and If $bge 1$: we can have $phi(3^b) = 2*3^{b-1}$. If this is to be less than or equal to $4$ we must have $b=1$ and $phi(3) = 2$ so $M= 2^a*3$ and $phi(M) = phi (2^a)phi 3 = 2phi(2^a)$.



                        SO $phi(2^a) le 2$ and as $phi(2^a)= 2^{a-1}$ we may have $a = 2$ and $M = 12$ and $phi(12) = 4$



                        And that's the largest such number that is a multiple of $3$.



                        Case 3: $c=0; b=0$ and $M = 2^k$ so $phi(M) = phi(2^{k})=2^{k-1}le 4$. This means $k le 3$ and $M le 8$. If $M = 8$ then $phi 8 = 4$.



                        And there we have it.



                        $M =12$ is the largest number so that $phi(M) le 4$ and $N = 13$ is the smallest number so that for all $nge N$, $phi(n) ge 5$.



                        =======



                        Worth noting the only time $phi(k)$ is odd is if $k=1,2$ so $phi(k) =5$ is impossible. (If $p$ is an odd factor of $k$ then $p-1|phi(k)$. If $k = 2^k$ then $phi(2^k) = 2^{k-1}$.)



                        $phi(k) ge 5; k le 12$ occur with $phi(7) = 6; phi(9)=6; phi(11)=10$



                        $phi(k) = 4$ occur with $phi(5)=phi(8)= phi(10)=phi(12)= 4$



                        And the rest $phi(3)=phi(4)=phi(6) = 2$.






                        share|cite|improve this answer









                        $endgroup$


















                          1












                          $begingroup$

                          The smallest $N$ where $phi(N) ge 5$ for every $n ge N$ would be $M + 1$ where $M$ is the largest $M$ where $phi(M) le 4$.



                          Now if $gcd(n,k) = 1$ then $phi(nk) = phi(n)phi(k)$ and for any $p^m$ for a prime $p$, then $phi (p^m) = (p-1)p^{m-1} ge p-1$. So if $phi(M) le 4$ then $p le 5$ so the only possible prime factors of $M$ are $2,3$ or $5$.



                          So $M = 2^a3^b5^c$ and $phi(M) = phi (2^a)phi(3^b)phi(5^c)$.



                          Case 1: Now if $c ge 1$ then $phi(5^c) = 4*5^{c-1}$ so $c=1$ and $phi(M) = 4$. And $phi(3^b) = phi(2^a) =1$.



                          If $bge 1$ then $phi(3^b) = (3-1)3^{b-1} = 2*3^{b-1}$ that's impossible so $b = 0$.



                          If $a ge 1$ then $phi(2^a) = (2-1)2^{a-1} = 2^{a-1}$. That is possible only if $a =1$ so if $M=10$, $phi(M) =4$ and that's the largest such number that is a multiple of $5$.



                          Case 2: $c=0$ and If $bge 1$: we can have $phi(3^b) = 2*3^{b-1}$. If this is to be less than or equal to $4$ we must have $b=1$ and $phi(3) = 2$ so $M= 2^a*3$ and $phi(M) = phi (2^a)phi 3 = 2phi(2^a)$.



                          SO $phi(2^a) le 2$ and as $phi(2^a)= 2^{a-1}$ we may have $a = 2$ and $M = 12$ and $phi(12) = 4$



                          And that's the largest such number that is a multiple of $3$.



                          Case 3: $c=0; b=0$ and $M = 2^k$ so $phi(M) = phi(2^{k})=2^{k-1}le 4$. This means $k le 3$ and $M le 8$. If $M = 8$ then $phi 8 = 4$.



                          And there we have it.



                          $M =12$ is the largest number so that $phi(M) le 4$ and $N = 13$ is the smallest number so that for all $nge N$, $phi(n) ge 5$.



                          =======



                          Worth noting the only time $phi(k)$ is odd is if $k=1,2$ so $phi(k) =5$ is impossible. (If $p$ is an odd factor of $k$ then $p-1|phi(k)$. If $k = 2^k$ then $phi(2^k) = 2^{k-1}$.)



                          $phi(k) ge 5; k le 12$ occur with $phi(7) = 6; phi(9)=6; phi(11)=10$



                          $phi(k) = 4$ occur with $phi(5)=phi(8)= phi(10)=phi(12)= 4$



                          And the rest $phi(3)=phi(4)=phi(6) = 2$.






                          share|cite|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$
















                            1












                            1








                            1





                            $begingroup$

                            The smallest $N$ where $phi(N) ge 5$ for every $n ge N$ would be $M + 1$ where $M$ is the largest $M$ where $phi(M) le 4$.



                            Now if $gcd(n,k) = 1$ then $phi(nk) = phi(n)phi(k)$ and for any $p^m$ for a prime $p$, then $phi (p^m) = (p-1)p^{m-1} ge p-1$. So if $phi(M) le 4$ then $p le 5$ so the only possible prime factors of $M$ are $2,3$ or $5$.



                            So $M = 2^a3^b5^c$ and $phi(M) = phi (2^a)phi(3^b)phi(5^c)$.



                            Case 1: Now if $c ge 1$ then $phi(5^c) = 4*5^{c-1}$ so $c=1$ and $phi(M) = 4$. And $phi(3^b) = phi(2^a) =1$.



                            If $bge 1$ then $phi(3^b) = (3-1)3^{b-1} = 2*3^{b-1}$ that's impossible so $b = 0$.



                            If $a ge 1$ then $phi(2^a) = (2-1)2^{a-1} = 2^{a-1}$. That is possible only if $a =1$ so if $M=10$, $phi(M) =4$ and that's the largest such number that is a multiple of $5$.



                            Case 2: $c=0$ and If $bge 1$: we can have $phi(3^b) = 2*3^{b-1}$. If this is to be less than or equal to $4$ we must have $b=1$ and $phi(3) = 2$ so $M= 2^a*3$ and $phi(M) = phi (2^a)phi 3 = 2phi(2^a)$.



                            SO $phi(2^a) le 2$ and as $phi(2^a)= 2^{a-1}$ we may have $a = 2$ and $M = 12$ and $phi(12) = 4$



                            And that's the largest such number that is a multiple of $3$.



                            Case 3: $c=0; b=0$ and $M = 2^k$ so $phi(M) = phi(2^{k})=2^{k-1}le 4$. This means $k le 3$ and $M le 8$. If $M = 8$ then $phi 8 = 4$.



                            And there we have it.



                            $M =12$ is the largest number so that $phi(M) le 4$ and $N = 13$ is the smallest number so that for all $nge N$, $phi(n) ge 5$.



                            =======



                            Worth noting the only time $phi(k)$ is odd is if $k=1,2$ so $phi(k) =5$ is impossible. (If $p$ is an odd factor of $k$ then $p-1|phi(k)$. If $k = 2^k$ then $phi(2^k) = 2^{k-1}$.)



                            $phi(k) ge 5; k le 12$ occur with $phi(7) = 6; phi(9)=6; phi(11)=10$



                            $phi(k) = 4$ occur with $phi(5)=phi(8)= phi(10)=phi(12)= 4$



                            And the rest $phi(3)=phi(4)=phi(6) = 2$.






                            share|cite|improve this answer









                            $endgroup$



                            The smallest $N$ where $phi(N) ge 5$ for every $n ge N$ would be $M + 1$ where $M$ is the largest $M$ where $phi(M) le 4$.



                            Now if $gcd(n,k) = 1$ then $phi(nk) = phi(n)phi(k)$ and for any $p^m$ for a prime $p$, then $phi (p^m) = (p-1)p^{m-1} ge p-1$. So if $phi(M) le 4$ then $p le 5$ so the only possible prime factors of $M$ are $2,3$ or $5$.



                            So $M = 2^a3^b5^c$ and $phi(M) = phi (2^a)phi(3^b)phi(5^c)$.



                            Case 1: Now if $c ge 1$ then $phi(5^c) = 4*5^{c-1}$ so $c=1$ and $phi(M) = 4$. And $phi(3^b) = phi(2^a) =1$.



                            If $bge 1$ then $phi(3^b) = (3-1)3^{b-1} = 2*3^{b-1}$ that's impossible so $b = 0$.



                            If $a ge 1$ then $phi(2^a) = (2-1)2^{a-1} = 2^{a-1}$. That is possible only if $a =1$ so if $M=10$, $phi(M) =4$ and that's the largest such number that is a multiple of $5$.



                            Case 2: $c=0$ and If $bge 1$: we can have $phi(3^b) = 2*3^{b-1}$. If this is to be less than or equal to $4$ we must have $b=1$ and $phi(3) = 2$ so $M= 2^a*3$ and $phi(M) = phi (2^a)phi 3 = 2phi(2^a)$.



                            SO $phi(2^a) le 2$ and as $phi(2^a)= 2^{a-1}$ we may have $a = 2$ and $M = 12$ and $phi(12) = 4$



                            And that's the largest such number that is a multiple of $3$.



                            Case 3: $c=0; b=0$ and $M = 2^k$ so $phi(M) = phi(2^{k})=2^{k-1}le 4$. This means $k le 3$ and $M le 8$. If $M = 8$ then $phi 8 = 4$.



                            And there we have it.



                            $M =12$ is the largest number so that $phi(M) le 4$ and $N = 13$ is the smallest number so that for all $nge N$, $phi(n) ge 5$.



                            =======



                            Worth noting the only time $phi(k)$ is odd is if $k=1,2$ so $phi(k) =5$ is impossible. (If $p$ is an odd factor of $k$ then $p-1|phi(k)$. If $k = 2^k$ then $phi(2^k) = 2^{k-1}$.)



                            $phi(k) ge 5; k le 12$ occur with $phi(7) = 6; phi(9)=6; phi(11)=10$



                            $phi(k) = 4$ occur with $phi(5)=phi(8)= phi(10)=phi(12)= 4$



                            And the rest $phi(3)=phi(4)=phi(6) = 2$.







                            share|cite|improve this answer












                            share|cite|improve this answer



                            share|cite|improve this answer










                            answered Dec 29 '18 at 22:32









                            fleabloodfleablood

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